Stay Catholic or change religions?

[CARV]

Is it not amazing how those who leave the CC, as a Catholic they complained how they are not being fed, of they know nothing, and once they leave, they are the experts on all things Catholic…or even those who have never been Catholic…because you know…they heard it, from someone who heard it, from someone who heard it, from a fallen away ungrounded non-practicing Catholic…or someone who was never even Catholic.
And the problem here is they are not truly convinced they are in the right place themselves…They are lashing out on us not to convince us…BUT TO CONVINCE THEMSELVES!

I really don’t contemplate it that deep. Its pretty easy to read between the lines of what people are typing. Many Catholics, including some here, absolutely loathe dissident catholics. I was a Lefebvrist when I was catholic and for the Pope to purge the Chuch of all of the heretics and the infidels was the stuff that we prayed for everyday. I know that most Catholics don’t think like that.Most Catholics are pretty easy going and don’t take papal teaching so seriously, particularly contraception. But there is a segment of the the Roman Catholic Church, the true believers if you will, that wants the Church to clamp down on dissent, to the point of formally inquiring what they personally believe (inquisition) and excommunicating them.

So does anybody think that would be a good idea? I’ll bet a few of you do.

 

[guanophore]

jm, I wish I knew but I wasn’t there to really say for certain. I can only go by faith and belief.

“Blessed is the man who has not seen, and yet believes”.

You are right, it is faith and beleif. You can be confident that Jesus has preserved the testimony of His Gospel in His Church.

Guan, of course I know I am a hu-man. That’s one of my pts.

The one kicking against the goads?

do you think it is possible that God brought you here to CAF to reform YOUR faith?

:shrug:  I can't help that Guan.

You are right. In my case, my conscience was already seared as with a hot iron before I even knew this was possible!

However, we can recognize that they are seared, and bring them to Jesus for healing. This means accepting what He has revealed that is kept infallibly in the Church by the HS, submitting to it, even when we don’t understand or agree with it. Then, we pray that He will bring our minds and hearts into conformity with His revelation.

  I know I have given some reasons for me to remain.

You mean, remain in the practice of misrepresenting yourself, and giving public scandal to the Church?

I think you could not possibly be talking about “remain” in the Catholic faith, since it is clear you left it a long time ago, if in fact you ever really embraced it.

As you believe all the teachings to be. Otherwise it seems one is turning their conscience entirely over to other sinful men. I think it was Ted who described that in a certain way.

Yes, I am sure it seems that way. However, the Teachings are there for you, without any “sinful men” being “in the way” of them. You can read them, pray over them, and embrace them without distracting yourself by looking at the faults of others.

You mean you actually found a reason! So see there’s one unless I’m run out beforehand.

I found a reason for you to believe you can change. You mean run you out of Mass? Not a bit. Protestants are welcome at Mass. We prefer that they don’t masquerade as Catholic, though, and we warn them that receiving communion when they are not in unity with the Catholic faith is spiritually dangerous, and an unwelcome action.

 Our Catholic Church of which I have membership used to be at least a bit more open and less bent on purity than it appears headed.  I am big on open hearts, open minds, and open doors.

These things do not have to happen at the expense of purity.

 Not the kind of open doors though I sometimes see here with attempts to shove ppl out the door.

No one here is trying to shove you out any doors, MC. Don’t play the victim. We object because you represent yourself falsely.

. So there are a few I believe exemplifying the open arms of Christ perhaps a bit better that the direction I fear our Church is heading in.

Open arms do not have to come at the expense of purity. It helps no one to get to heaven to tolerate and encourage sin. Sin separates us from God.

I also look beyond denominations. As I’m not sure any have or can have everything 100% exactly right.

This is a hangup in your mind only. Human beings cannot access all of reality, so it is a strawman.

We can be 100% sure of what God has revealed.

I’m not even certain some of the beliefs we “argue” over are all that important in His eyes when it is He Whom outweighs any differences. I do believe in one truth. Jesus told us He was the Truth and He shall come again.

Yes, and in the meantime, he has left us His Church to guide us into all Truth.

 

[guanophore]

^

Matt, I would allow you your skepticism if you were consistent about your skepticism.

However, I doubt that you apply the same degree of incertitude to all areas of life. For example, do you say, “Well, since I’ve never been to Manila, Philippines I can’t say for certain that they speak Tagalog there.”

or

“Since I’ve never actually been to the moon I’m not certain that we actually can get there.”

Nope, I’m certain that you don’t. You have a confident degree of certitude that these things are true because you trust the sources (teachers, textbooks, magazines, etc) that have told you these things.

You ought to apply the same paradigm to issues of faith.

Yet another astute and accurate observation, thanks for this insight PR!

 

[guanophore]

Is it not amazing how those who leave the CC, as a Catholic they complained how they are not being fed, of they know nothing

you know, this is EXACTLY why I left! It took me decades to understand that I was doing what CM is doing. I had received the Eucharist in an unworthy manner for so many years, that I was, indeed, spiritually starving. I was going through the motions of being “Catholic” without embracing the doctrines of the faith.

And the problem here is they are not truly convinced they are in the right place themselves…They are lashing out on us not to convince us…BUT TO CONVINCE THEMSELVES!

It really does work for some of us.

 

[guanophore]

I really don’t contemplate it that deep. Its pretty easy to read between the lines of what people are typing. Many Catholics, including some here, absolutely loathe dissident catholics. I was a Lefebvrist when I was catholic and for the Pope to purge the Chuch of all of the heretics and the infidels was the stuff that we prayed for everyday. I know that most Catholics don’t think like that.Most Catholics are pretty easy going and don’t take papal teaching so seriously, particularly contraception. But there is a segment of the the Roman Catholic Church, the true believers if you will, that wants the Church to clamp down on dissent, to the point of formally inquiring what they personally believe (inquisition) and excommunicating them.

So does anybody think that would be a good idea? I’ll bet a few of you do.

I think it is distinctly unchristian to “loathe” anyone! It does not seem to be consistent with Jesus’ instruction to love our enemies.

Yes I do pray that the Church will be protected from wolves among the sheep. As we can see from the news and litigations, there are plenty of wolves rampant among the sheep, preying upon the most vulnerable and innocent.

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”.

I am not sure what "clamp down on dissent"really means?

Of course it makes sense to inquire if one really believes. How are those that come to our doors and asking if we are saved allowed more of a pass than Catholics?

This is especially true in the case of those who claim to be catholic, yet do not hold Catholic faith.

There is no need to excommunicate them, however, they have already done that to themselves. When one receives in a state of mortal sin, and when one not only denies the teaching of the church, but leads others to do so as well, ones own sins have separated him from communion. when such a one ignores the Teaching of the Apostles, one then can also eat and drink condemnation upon oneself.

With the “dissident” doing all this for himself, what is there left for the faithful to accomplish, exept to call him back to the faith?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I really don’t contemplate it that deep. Its pretty easy to read between the lines of what people are typing. Many Catholics, including some here, absolutely loathe dissident catholics. I was a Lefebvrist when I was catholic and for the Pope to purge the Chuch of all of the heretics and the infidels was the stuff that we prayed for everyday. I know that most Catholics don’t think like that.Most Catholics are pretty easy going and don’t take papal teaching so seriously, particularly contraception. But there is a segment of the the Roman Catholic Church, the true believers if you will, that wants the Church to clamp down on dissent, to the point of formally inquiring what they personally believe (inquisition) and excommunicating them.

So does anybody think that would be a good idea? I’ll bet a few of you do.

Now come on CARV…just because some people want to reinterate the teachings of the Church does not mean they loathe them. That’s a leap…stretch. I know when I was Protestant…people didn’t think I should be drinking alcohol…because they thought it was against the beliefs of the church…but I wouldn’t go so far as to say they loathed me. So, I don’t loathe dissidents…but nor do I want people to go around publicly thumbing their nose at the teachings of the Church while continuing to take all that they can from her. Yes I would like the Church to reinforce its teachings…after all…I’m not here for a watered down feel good religion…I want THE TRUTH. Which if you can’t guess I believe the Catholic church to be. But as far as formally inquiring what people believe…COME ON…that’s a BIG leap…and assumption. One that I believe to be unfair and just a little mean Let’s play nice!

 

[CMatt25]

Matt, I would allow you your skepticism if you were consistent about your skepticism.

However, I doubt that you apply the same degree of incertitude to all areas of life. For example, do you say, “Well, since I’ve never been to Manila, Philippines I can’t say for certain that they speak Tagalog there.”

or

“Since I’ve never actually been to the moon I’m not certain that we actually can get there.”

Nope, I’m certain that you don’t. You have a confident degree of certitude that these things are true because you trust the sources (teachers, textbooks, magazines, etc) that have told you these things.

You ought to apply the same paradigm to issues of faith.

Viva la Espana! FUTBOL!!! :yyeess:

Except we don’t just trust sources about the Phillipines and the moon. There are ppl on earth today who have actually seen the Phillipines and been to the moon. But as Paul said we walk by faith not by sight. With faith and beliefs when we get right down to it and if we’e honest with ourselves, it’s all a matter of faith.

 

[PRmerger]

Except we don’t just trust sources about the Phillipines and the moon. There are ppl on earth today who have actually seen the Phillipines and been to the moon. But as Paul said we walk by faith not by sight. With faith and beliefs when we get right down to it and if we’e honest with ourselves, it’s all a matter of faith.

Exactly!!! :extrahappy:

You have faith in the textbooks that tell you they speak Tagalog in the Philippines (English is the main language taught in the schools, BTW). Even if you actually haven’t set foot on Philippine soil you don’t doubt the fact.

Why, then, don’t you have at least the same level of faith regarding religious matters?

 

[CARV]

There is no need to excommunicate them, however, they have already done that to themselves. When one receives in a state of mortal sin, and when one not only denies the teaching of the church, but leads others to do so as well, ones own sins have separated him from communion. when such a one ignores the Teaching of the Apostles, one then can also eat and drink condemnation upon oneself.

With the “dissident” doing all this for himself, what is there left for the faithful to accomplish, exept to call him back to the faith?

But I have it has already been stated that Catholics who don’t “walk the walk” if you will are harmful to the church, and thus to the whole world, because they cause a scandal by thier actions. They defile the Church’s pure image to the world by masqerading as Catholics while practicing and promoting heresy and sin. They do these things in plain sight of the bishops of the Church who have the authority to seperate them from the flock and thus perserve the purity of the Church of Christ. If they fail to do so they are in deriliction of thier most sacred duty towards God and towards men.

Or so goes the argument that I heard for years from very pious and devout catholics. I’ll just let the “true believers” figure out the best way to deal with the situation. But I do know that a smaller church is a poorer church and Rome and her dioceses have a lot of bills to pay. Its not financially prudent to kick out all those envelope stuffers just yet. Probably should take thier money and let God fry em later:thumbsup:. (kidding lighten up)

 

[CARV]

Now come on CARV…just because some people want to reinterate the teachings of the Church does not mean they loathe them. That’s a leap…stretch. I know when I was Protestant…people didn’t think I should be drinking alcohol…because they thought it was against the beliefs of the church…but I wouldn’t go so far as to say they loathed me. So, I don’t loathe dissidents…but nor do I want people to go around publicly thumbing their nose at the teachings of the Church while continuing to take all that they can from her. Yes I would like the Church to reinforce its teachings…after all…I’m not here for a watered down feel good religion…I want THE TRUTH. Which if you can’t guess I believe the Catholic church to be. But as far as formally inquiring what people believe…COME ON…that’s a BIG leap…and assumption. One that I believe to be unfair and just a little mean Let’s play nice!

How exactly would you like the church to do to “reinforce its teaching”? Just curious what you mean by that.

 

[CMatt25]

do you think it is possible that God brought you here to CAF to reform YOUR faith?

You mean run you out of Mass? .

Anything is possible with God. No I mean run me out of the CC since I am a member according to Church teaching. But come to think of it unless the Church changes who She defines as a member that’s not possible. I guess the worst you can do is make me feel so unwelcome that I come to believe God is leading me elsewhere. God bless you Guan and peace.

 

[PRmerger]

I guess the worst you can do is make me feel so unwelcome that I come to believe God is leading me elsewhere. God bless you Guan and peace.

That would indeed be the worst we could do.

And the best would be that you contemplate whether you are creating a religion in your own image and likeness, versus conforming your beliefs to the Truth of what’s been revealed.

 

[guanophore]

Except we don’t just trust sources about the Phillipines and the moon. There are ppl on earth today who have actually seen the Phillipines and been to the moon. But as Paul said we walk by faith not by sight. With faith and beliefs when we get right down to it and if we’e honest with ourselves, it’s all a matter of faith.

I think if you are willing to look at history, and the writings of the Early Fathers, you will find that there is also “evidence” that appeals to reason as well as faith.

 

[CMatt25]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25
And the problem here is they are not truly convinced they are in the right place themselves…They are lashing out on us not to convince us…BUT TO CONVINCE THEMSELVES!

It really does work for some of us.

Guan, that wasn’t my post. Please don’t quote me when I didn’t say the quote.

 

[CMatt25]

Exactly!!! :extrahappy:

You have faith in the textbooks that tell you they speak Tagalog in the Philippines (English is the main language taught in the schools, BTW). Even if you actually haven’t set foot on Philippine soil you don’t doubt the fact.

Why, then, don’t you have at least the same level of faith regarding religious matters?

Apples and oranges are what you’re comparing. I don’t need faith in the textnooks about the Phillipines. Ppl still walking the earth today who have actually been there or live there today can let me know what they speak. Same as there’s no reason for me to believe the moon is made of cheese. I actually watched Neil Armstrong take his first step onto the surface. And I knew it wasn’t cheese when he couldn’t make a reuben sandwich out of it.

 

[guanophore]

But I have it has already been stated that Catholics who don’t “walk the walk” if you will are harmful to the church, and thus to the whole world, because they cause a scandal by thier actions.

Well, let’s qualify that somewhat. I think we can agree that we all fall short. What does a person do when they find that they have not walked the walk? Does such a one recognize, admit, accept, and repent? Or does such a one pretend that they did not “really know” what was expected because there is no one presently alive that waked with Christ?

If one consciously chooses to reject the Catholic faith, yet continues to go around in public calling themselves Catholic while refusing to 'walk the walk", then yes, they are causing harm.

They defile the Church’s pure image to the world

No, CARV, I don’t think any such “image” exists.

Those that accept the Church as the bride of Christ know that she is pure, but I think what the world sees are those persons attached to her that are fallen, and who sully her image. I don’t think the world sees purity in the Church. I think this is another one of your strawmen.

by masqerading as Catholics while practicing and promoting heresy and sin. They do these things in plain sight

Yes, such actions are definitely a scandal to the faith. Do you see it differently? Don’t you think this would be the case for anyone who is masquerading as something they are not? I mean, this certainly is not confined to the Church!

of the bishops of the Church who have the authority to seperate them from the flock and thus perserve the purity of the Church of Christ.

I think you have a misunderstanding about this, CARV. These people have already separated themselves from the flock, as well as the head. You see, these acts are self excommunicating. They just don’t realize they have done this for themselves. It is true, it is the duty of the bishops to make this clear. Some bishops are more direct and louder than others.

However, the teaching of the Church is quite clear for anyone to read. The anathemas of Trent, or all the other councils, have not been rescinded.

Excommunication does not “preserve the purity of the Church”. The Church is already pure because Jesus has cleansed her. Those who do not rely on the grace of God to hold themselves in purity fall away from grace, and lose their personal purity. The sinful behavior of individuals does not subtract from the purity of Christ.

Jesus was not less pure because Judas betrayed Him.

If they fail to do so they are in deriliction of thier most sacred duty towards God and towards men.

No, CARV. You seem to have a misunderstanding about the role of the Bishop. The most sacred duty of the bishop is to feed and care for the flock. It is not his job to go around trying to rid the field of weeds. If he is doing his duty to feed and care for the flock, then it will be clear who the weeds are, and that they have excommunicated themselves. This principle can even be seen in the secular media.

In Latin it is called *a jure Latæ Sententiæ *-- excommunication by law without intervention (the act itself excommunicates one).

Or so goes the argument that I heard for years from very pious and devout catholics.

There are many pious and devout Catholics that do not necessarily know canon law.

I'll just let the "true believers" figure out the best way to deal with the situation.

do you not consider yourself a believer?

If you really want to let Catholics figure this out, why are you here on CAF criticizing what is done, and not done?

It seems that you do not want to be part of the solution, but want to reserve the right to sit back and find fault.

But I do know that a smaller church is a poorer church and Rome and her dioceses have a lot of bills to pay.

Really? Like what? They own the country, and all the buildings in it, and are sitting on plenty of assets in the library and museums. I think Rome will be fine.

If you are under some misapprehension that nominal Catholics are paying tithes, then I think you need to read some research. People that don’t follow the teachings of the Church don’t financially support her either.

Its not financially prudent to kick out all those envelope stuffers just yet. Probably should take thier money and let God fry em later:thumbsup:. (kidding lighten up)

You seem like a man who has a lot of hostility and a spirit of mockery. I find myself wondering why you are here at CAF. What do you hope to accomplish? Do you believe you are building some kind of unity by disparaging our faith?

 

[DebCat129]

I really don’t contemplate it that deep. Its pretty easy to read between the lines of what people are typing. Many Catholics, including some here, absolutely loathe dissident catholics. I was a Lefebvrist when I was catholic and for the Pope to purge the Chuch of all of the heretics and the infidels was the stuff that we prayed for everyday. I know that most Catholics don’t think like that.Most Catholics are pretty easy going and don’t take papal teaching so seriously, particularly contraception. But there is a segment of the the Roman Catholic Church, the true believers if you will, that wants the Church to clamp down on dissent, to the point of formally inquiring what they personally believe (inquisition) and excommunicating them.

So does anybody think that would be a good idea? I’ll bet a few of you do.

The only thing we loath is when people assume we loath those who left the church or those who don’t agree with the church…and those who will ridicule us for what we believe…for example when you and your buddy were commenting on the Eucharist, and how we believe Jesus is truly present in it…the level of mockery that spewed from your written words…I don’t mock what you believe…you don’t see me at Episcopalian Answers.com causing descent…oh wait no such website exists…but if there were I would not be there, because I don’t tell protestants they are self richeous or how silly they are…or how silly their beliefs are…I wouldnt go there to make them seem twisted…because that is what you are doing…you and your arrogance…you think you are enlightened, and better then us Catholics that are trying to lead a pious life…that okay…But you need to ask yourself…What are you really doing here?..because its not Gods work!!!

 

[stormy99]

**Being a Catholic for me is a privilege. I came later to the Church after many years of not attending any church. I regret this every day. Nothing says life is happy and if you live a happy life then it’s good and you go to heaven. Protestants who confess their sins to only God either aloud or in their mind…do not have the absolution of Jesus for their sins. My first confession was extremely difficult…as I counted up my sins and failings…but when it was over…then I absolutely knew that the Catholic Church had it right. I promised Jesus to do the pennance I was given every day and I do it gladly…The peace that washed over me was undescribable…I felt clean, lighter and ready for confirmation…

You don’t get that in a Protestant Church. You get this in the Church that is the true church and the way to being with God eternally. For me living a Catholic is an honor and I take it very seriously. The Crucifix is the last thing I see when I turn out the light and the first thing I see in the morning…It’s to Jesus I turn and ask for help being a better Catholic as I go through the day and at night…how did I do and how can I do better tomorrow?

You can’t shop for a church…one that suits you…not when there is one already that suits everyone willing to turn and listen. Not talk but listen. The Holy Spirit will speak but we have to be ready to listen. And when we truly listen, there can be nodoubt that the Catholic Church is home…and to me there is no better feeling then coming home to Jesus through communion in the Catholic Church.

storm**

 

[CARV]

Well, let’s qualify that somewhat. I think we can agree that we all fall short. What does a person do when they find that they have not walked the walk? Does such a one recognize, admit, accept, and repent? Or does such a one pretend that they did not “really know” what was expected because there is no one presently alive that waked with Christ?

If one consciously chooses to reject the Catholic faith, yet continues to go around in public calling themselves Catholic while refusing to 'walk the walk", then yes, they are causing harm.

No, CARV, I don’t think any such “image” exists.

Those that accept the Church as the bride of Christ know that she is pure, but I think what the world sees are those persons attached to her that are fallen, and who sully her image. I don’t think the world sees purity in the Church. I think this is another one of your strawmen.

Yes, such actions are definitely a scandal to the faith. Do you see it differently? Don’t you think this would be the case for anyone who is masquerading as something they are not? I mean, this certainly is not confined to the Church!

I think you have a misunderstanding about this, CARV. These people have already separated themselves from the flock, as well as the head. You see, these acts are self excommunicating. They just don’t realize they have done this for themselves. It is true, it is the duty of the bishops to make this clear. Some bishops are more direct and louder than others.

However, the teaching of the Church is quite clear for anyone to read. The anathemas of Trent, or all the other councils, have not been rescinded.

Excommunication does not “preserve the purity of the Church”. The Church is already pure because Jesus has cleansed her. Those who do not rely on the grace of God to hold themselves in purity fall away from grace, and lose their personal purity. The sinful behavior of individuals does not subtract from the purity of Christ.

Jesus was not less pure because Judas betrayed Him.

No, CARV. You seem to have a misunderstanding about the role of the Bishop. The most sacred duty of the bishop is to feed and care for the flock. It is not his job to go around trying to rid the field of weeds. If he is doing his duty to feed and care for the flock, then it will be clear who the weeds are, and that they have excommunicated themselves. This principle can even be seen in the secular media.

In Latin it is called *a jure Latæ Sententiæ *-- excommunication by law without intervention (the act itself excommunicates one).

There are many pious and devout Catholics that do not necessarily know canon law.

do you not consider yourself a believer?

If you really want to let Catholics figure this out, why are you here on CAF criticizing what is done, and not done?

It seems that you do not want to be part of the solution, but want to reserve the right to sit back and find fault.

Really? Like what? They own the country, and all the buildings in it, and are sitting on plenty of assets in the library and museums. I think Rome will be fine.

If you are under some misapprehension that nominal Catholics are paying tithes, then I think you need to read some research. People that don’t follow the teachings of the Church don’t financially support her either.

You seem like a man who has a lot of hostility and a spirit of mockery. I find myself wondering why you are here at CAF. What do you hope to accomplish? Do you believe you are building some kind of unity by disparaging our faith?

I think its pretty naive to say that the Catholic Church doesn’t really need the weekly contributions of a billion people. Not a criticism, just a fact. All churches need cash. It’s also pretty naive to believe that dissenters don’t give alms. Maybe we can subtract the contributions of CMatt, the Speaker of the House, and the 90% of Catholics who dissent from Rome’s teaching and see if the bishops have enough to keep the lights on. Probably has something to do with why they don’t push the issue.

Kind of disingenuous to me though. My money is good enough for Catholic Church even though my soul isn’t good enough for heaven. One would think that the more charitable route would be to refuse the money as a rebuke toward a sinner. I wouldn’t take money from a pimp or a drugdealer to pay my bills. That’s called integrity.

And relax, I’m just kidding around. You don’t have to take yourself so seriously all the time.

 

[CARV]

The only thing we loath is when people assume we loath those who left the church or those who don’t agree with the church…and those who will ridicule us for what we believe…for example when you and your buddy were commenting on the Eucharist, and how we believe Jesus is truly present in it…the level of mockery that spewed from your written words…I don’t mock what you believe…you don’t see me at Episcopalian Answers.com causing descent…oh wait no such website exists…but if there were I would not be there, because I don’t tell protestants they are self richeous or how silly they are…or how silly their beliefs are…I wouldnt go there to make them seem twisted…because that is what you are doing…you and your arrogance…you think you are enlightened, and better then us Catholics that are trying to lead a pious life…that okay…But you need to ask yourself…What are you really doing here?..because its not Gods work!!!

Getting a little defensive, aren’t we? Perhaps you should take a break.