Stealing Christmas

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ndeparis88

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I’m trying to defend why we have Christmas. The charge or the other party says

“Just a thought on this whole “Save Christmas” thing most of the religious crowd are on about, did you know that nearly every Christmas tradition was stolen from the pagans? I mean, even the star on the tree is derived from the pentagram”.

I started by saying that when we were going to teach the gospel we had to use things that the culture new about. Like with the celts we used the sun so that’s why we have a Celtic cross. But it is ended by the other party saying “The point is dude that many Pagan traditions were adopted by Catholicism or outright stolen”.

What do I say.
 
I would say that these pagan traditions were conquered by the Church. Even Rome - the heart of the pagan empire - became Christian. If we can turn Rome into a Christian city, why can’t we take other lesser pagan symbols and completely obliterate their pagan meaning, conquering them in the name of Jesus and converting them to serve His Church?

We *absolutely *do that.
 
It’s true we do that but how do we defend that when speaking to someone who sees that as deplorable and evil?

I have a friend who continually sneers at me because I’m Christian and Christians stole everything from Pagans… so I’d be curious to know how you’d defend conquering a pagan tradition?
 
nickybr38 said:
It’s true we do that but how do we defend that when speaking to someone who sees that as deplorable and evil?

I have a friend who continually sneers at me because I’m Christian and Christians stole everything from Pagans… so I’d be curious to know how you’d defend conquering a pagan tradition?
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It’s a fallacious argument. He’s committing the genetic fallacy:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

Where Christmas comes from has nothing to do with what it means. He needs argue the “evilness” of Christmas on it’s own merits…and I would propose he would have a hard time doing so.
 
ndeparis88 said:
I’m trying to defend why we have Christmas. The charge or the other party says

“Just a thought on this whole “Save Christmas” thing most of the religious crowd are on about, did you know that nearly every Christmas tradition was stolen from the pagans? I mean, even the star on the tree is derived from the pentagram”.

I started by saying that when we were going to teach the gospel we had to use things that the culture new about. Like with the celts we used the sun so that’s why we have a Celtic cross. But it is ended by the other party saying “The point is dude that many Pagan traditions were adopted by Catholicism or outright stolen”.

What do I say.
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STOLE? – you have to be very careful about that charge and define what you mean by that. Did the Pagan religion alone, have possession of those symbols, exclusive rights and did their symbols go missing from their religion after Christianity broke in and made off with them?
Did ancient Pagans suddenly say: “Wait, what happened to my Yule Tree and my star?”

Some might say “conquered” - I don’t know if I’d say that.
Some might say “co-opted” – I think that’s closer.

I’d personally say that Christianity simply re-oriented those beliefs, symbols, and traditions towards the rightful God. Made them better. Gave those traditions a new life. I think that’s more honoring/fair to both religions and a more accurate statement over all.
And since many Pagans converted… I don’t see a whole lot of evidence that they minded the switch.

Secondly, We have to look at each tradition individually. Sometimes they were directly ported over or converted. Others may just be a case of “similarity” Simply because I decorate my house similar to yours… does not mean that we share the same upbringing or learned it from the same source.

A star on the top of the tree, I believe is a fairly recent addition, NOT something that was “stolen” from Pagans.
The traditions of Christmas have changed quite a bit in recent years, especially in the West. We have to be careful not to be revisionists and re-write history to fit the current situation.

We also have to be careful to not draw the wrong conclusions. Simply because two things are similar, does not mean that they came from the same source. I believe History is filled with different cultures developing similar solutions to things, without stealing ideas from one another.

I’m just saying that SOME Christian Christmas traditions may have NOT come from paganism but from other sources and cultures… perhaps from Jewish tradition, for example.

But even if it were proven that EVERY single Christian celebration had Pagan roots… what would that prove?

Does an idea have to be NEW to be relevant and good?
Does a religion have to be unique to be the 1 true religion?

I’ve argued with a few non-theists that in fact… the fact that we DO see parallels between religions, actually in a way re-enforces the idea that there are some universal truths and some objective morality. That Christianity is simply the best and closest, containing all the universal truths. But that EACH religion, or eastern philosophy contains “some” truths…hits on at least some of God’s revealed truth.

So, even if everything in Christmas, from the manger to the tipity-top of the tree was taken from Pagans (which I don’t believe is 100% true) What does it matter. If anything that just shows that the Pagans had some nice Symbology.
 
How did we steal Christmas?

Which pagan feast had God’s only begotten Son born of the Virgin Mary who was conceived immaculately?
 
Ever since St. Paul came upon the altar to an unknown god and proclaimed that this God they worshipped unkowingly was the One, True God, the Church has been utilizing those elements of the culture and Christianizing them. There’s nothing wrong with this.

The claims about the Church “stealing” pagan symbols is way overblown, though. Some symbols (like water, trees, etc) are archetypal types of symbols that are present in almost every religious belief system. And sometimes, the Christian meaning actually came first and the pagans copied from the Christians.
 
Having been a pagan for 19 years, I can tell you that, yes, SOME elements of Christmas were “taken” from pagans. However I can also tell you that many parts of modern paganism were taken from Catholics. I can also tell you that the church has been taking things used for bad and changing them around for 2000 years. If you question this, go take a look at the center of the Vatican. You will see a large Egyptian style obelisk. That was the same obelisk that St. Peter died looking at because it was the center of Nero’s camp where St. Peter was killed!

If the Vatican can take a piece of stone and turn it from evil to good, why can we not do the same with customs and traditions?

Pax :signofcross:
 
Speedypizza said:
If the Vatican can take a piece of stone and turn it from evil to good, why can we not do the same with customs and traditions?

Pax :signofcross:
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Exactly! Just look at the Cross itself. It was an instrument of torture and death and yet now it is symbolic of our very salvation. Christianizing things is what we do. 🙂
 
J. R. R. Tolkien, G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis all held that religious symbols are universal because all men have the same yearning for the same God whether they know it or not.

It all began with Adam and Eve and the promise of the Savior to come–this promise is engrained in the human pysche/soul, so it is bound to pop up in religious and cultural symbolism and cosmic constructs. Lewis likened it to a broken mirror, each reflecting a part of the whole picture.

When men separated after Noah, they took the basic promises given to him, turning them into mythologies to explain natural and supernatural realities. God called Abraham to have a true witness to the truth and to set aside a people from whom the Messiah would come.

So, when St. Paul saw the shrine to the Unknown God, he didn’t condemn, rather he recognized this attempt at understanding the true God and built upon it. And just as men tried to honor God in such ways, they also worshiped demons–appeasing them with human sacrifices and prostitution cults. There’s an upside and a downside to man’s nature and this is clearly reflected in mythologies as well as in revelation from God.

So, Christianity didn’t steal anything, rather it baptized men’s desire for God by revealing the true God and using the symbols with which men were familiar because we are physical beings as well as spiritual ones, the truth seen clearly in the Incarnation, the ultimate symbol of all symbols, the Logos.
 
The idea of “judges” came from pagans. The languages we speak came from pagans. The wedding ring and wedding vail is pagan. Everything we do is rooted in the history of people that worshiped many gods
The bottom line is that all good things come from God and if pagans used them first so what? If Christmas was celebrated to honor the birth of the Son of God to replace the worship of the “sun” god then that is a good thing.
 
Christmas is actually an original Christian holiday. Some parts of today’s celebration were taken from different cultures (the presents, xmas tree, etc) but the holiday itself is purely Christian…always was.
 
Garyjohn2 said:
Christmas is actually an original Christian holiday. Some parts of today’s celebration were taken from different cultures (the presents, xmas tree, etc) but the holiday itself is purely Christian…always was.
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Indeed. The Christmas tree came about because St. Boniface encouraged those who had been pagans to stop worshiping oak trees, by sacrificing a young person each year, to seeing in the evergreen tree the symbol of everlasting life (because it stays green through winter). It’s when people started bringing evergreen boughs into their homes as part of their Christmas celebrations and then the tree itself. The Christmas tree was made popular by Prince Albert who brought the custom of having a decorated tree inside the house from his native Germany. From there the custom spread throughout the English speaking world. There’s a complex history behind each of the Christmas customs we take for granted, and most have some inspiring story/lesson to tell us. I find such customs encouraging and part of the joy of the season for they reflect man’s reconciliation with God as seen in many cultures and times.
 
Christmas is a Christian holiday. We celebrate the birth of our Savior.
 
ndeparis88 said:
I’m trying to defend why we have Christmas. The charge or the other party says

“Just a thought on this whole “Save Christmas” thing most of the religious crowd are on about, did you know that nearly every Christmas tradition was stolen from the pagans? I mean, even the star on the tree is derived from the pentagram”.

I started by saying that when we were going to teach the gospel we had to use things that the culture new about. Like with the celts we used the sun so that’s why we have a Celtic cross. But it is ended by the other party saying “The point is dude that many Pagan traditions were adopted by Catholicism or outright stolen”.

What do I say.
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STOLEN is a little strong. A better word is BAPTISED. We baptised their culture so that
Christ would be easier to accept. Using things and events the pegans were accustomed to would make it far more acceptable to them than trying to “reinvent the wheel”. It is a way not only to baptise them but the environment they lived in as well.

St. Paul mentions this in one of his letters, to use things familiar to the people to teach them about Jesus.

Just a thought that this is a good thing.
 
nickybr38 said:
It’s true we do that but how do we defend that when speaking to someone who sees that as deplorable and evil?

I have a friend who continually sneers at me because I’m Christian and Christians stole everything from Pagans… so I’d be curious to know how you’d defend conquering a pagan tradition?
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Remind him that since God created that the pagans were the ones that took his creations and that any time or oject they used was from God so in not useing it to give clory to God they stole it and we inturn have taken it back and placed the focus back were it Belonged.
 
Pagans “stole” some features of Christianity too, no one seem to complain bout that 🤷
 
If the Church can take actual pagans and through the power of the Sacraments turn them into Christians then I can see no objection to taking pagan symbols and turning them into Christian symbols. The former requires Grace because new life is imparted to the baptised Christian. The latter does not require it because it is merely a change in what is represented or associated. An earlier poster mentioned the Cross being the prime example of that.
 
ndeparis88 said:
I’m trying to defend why we have Christmas. The charge or the other party says

“Just a thought on this whole “Save Christmas” thing most of the religious crowd are on about, did you know that nearly every Christmas tradition was stolen from the pagans? I mean, even the star on the tree is derived from the pentagram”.

I started by saying that when we were going to teach the gospel we had to use things that the culture new about. Like with the celts we used the sun so that’s why we have a Celtic cross. But it is ended by the other party saying “The point is dude that many Pagan traditions were adopted by Catholicism or outright stolen”.

What do I say.
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First of all, what does the star on the tree have to do with the Feast of the Nativity?

Epiphany yes, but the Feast of the Nativity?

There is a lot that is wrong with modern Christmas. It is an excuse for utterly wretched materialism. It teaches most children the virtue of self-centeredness and greed.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Feast of the Nativity. If that is what is meant by “saving Christmas”, I’m all for it. If, on the other hand, you refer to the Feast of Fools that has been created out of whole cloth by our hedonistic society, let the pagans have it.
 
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