Stealing Christmas

[Suetonius]

I did quite a bit of Research of the (Roman) origin of Christmas on a Pagan perspective, The Person who Invented Christmas Day was Gaius Julius Caesar (100-44BC), because he Created the Solar Calender, and abolished the Roman Moon Calender, and Dec25 is only Significant on a Solar Calender

In fact , the Northern Territories of the Roman Empire uses the name “Yule-Tide” as December 25th, and YULE is shortened from of YULius Caesar, after his death, Yulius Caesar was given the Sun-God attribute as Divus Iulius, and it merged with the Zoroastrian Deity known as Mithra, from we get Mithras and was also known as Sol Invictus (from Jupiter Invictus), because Julius Caesar was shown as the God “Jupiter”

Julius Caesar was titled Pater Patriae, which was given as the name of the head priest of Mithra’s at the Mithraeum(now the Vatican) from which we get PAPA (Pater Patriae)

In other words, December 25th was Originally the Festival of Julius(Yule) Caesar, In Fact, Christmas Trees e.g Cruciform Trophy and the Christmas Star (Sidus Iulium) are all Symbols of Julius Caesar who was a MAN, not a God, thus NOT pagan in Origin.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I did quite a bit of Research of the (Roman) origin of Christmas on a Pagan perspective, The Person who Invented Christmas Day was Gaius Julius Caesar (100-44BC), because he Created the Solar Calender, and abolished the Roman Moon Calender, and Dec25 is only Significant on a Solar Calender

In fact , the Northern Territories of the Roman Empire uses the name “Yule-Tide” as December 25th, and YULE is shortened from of YULius Caesar, after his death, Yulius Caesar was given the Sun-God attribute as Divus Iulius, and it merged with the Zoroastrian Deity known as Mithra, from we get Mithras and was also known as Sol Invictus (from Jupiter Invictus), because Julius Caesar was shown as the God “Jupiter”

Julius Caesar was titled Pater Patriae, which was given as the name of the head priest of Mithra’s at the Mithraeum(now the Vatican) from which we get PAPA (Pater Patriae)

In other words, December 25th was Originally the Festival of Julius(Yule) Caesar, In Fact, Christmas Trees e.g Cruciform Trophy and the Christmas Star (Sidus Iulium) are all Symbols of Julius Caesar who was a MAN, not a God, thus NOT pagan in Origin.

That whole thing is such a Hodge podge bunch of mish mash.

 

[Suetonius]

That whole thing is such a Hodge podge bunch of mish mash.

The Evidence is there, but Most Catholic believe that Rome/Vatican never existed before the Holy Roman Empire, for they deny there Roman Heritage

 

[StrawberryJam]

How did we steal Christmas?

Which pagan feast had God’s only begotten Son born of the Virgin Mary who was conceived immaculately?

If I were a christian theist, I would not bring up virgin Births at all with the other side.
It will give them much more to bombard the OP with than needed.

My advice to the OP is to simply say that yes, you can see things in the current custom of Christmas celebrations that look very close to some that existed prior to christianity.

Then I would ask them why they think that is important. Let them spin their wheels to tell you why it is.

 

[Della]

First of all, what does the star on the tree have to do with the Feast of the Nativity?

Epiphany yes, but the Feast of the Nativity?

The star appeared when Christ was born (Mt. 2:2), leading the Magi to him later (Mt. 2: 9, 11).

There is a lot that is wrong with modern Christmas. It is an excuse for utterly wretched materialism. It teaches most children the virtue of self-centeredness and greed.

Not to be nitpicky, but what you mean (I think) is that Christmas is exploited for materialism not that modern Christmas itself is bad. Christmas is Christmas no matter how badly it is abused or misused, yes? As to teaching children self-centerness and greed, it doesn’t have to if we explain that the gifts they are given represent the free gift Christ gave us by becoming a man and dying for us. Of course, when they are very young they aren’t going to connect the dots very well, but I certainly learned that lesson as a child because my parents made certain that I did, as well as my faith community (which was Episcopalian).

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Feast of the Nativity. If that is what is meant by “saving Christmas”, I’m all for it. If, on the other hand, you refer to the Feast of Fools that has been created out of whole cloth by our hedonistic society, let the pagans have it.

Even here I think a bit of charity has to be given because without Christmas what would people have to party over? The winter solstice? Some people do celebrate it, but there is no tinge of true joy, only abandonment, which is not the same thing. Christmas has baptized our dark winters into something sweet and joyous instead of superstitious and haunted. So, I say let people party and be a bit silly. I only wish we celebrated all our holy days of obligation with as much vim and cheeriness. Might do us all a world of good.

And so with Fred, Scrooge’s nephew, I say, “Merry Christmas! May God bless it and us all!”

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The Evidence is there, but Most Catholic believe that Rome/Vatican never existed before the Holy Roman Empire, for they deny there Roman Heritage

I know of onone that denies that Rome existed prior to the Holy Rome Empire.

 

[haroldcrews]

Rome was established according to traditional accounts on 21 April 753 BC. That is substantially prior to the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[peace2u2]

CHRISTMAS WAS NOT STOLEN- IT WAS AND STILL IS THE GREATEST GIFT WE WILL EVER RECEIVE

FROM THE BOOK: The Case For Christmas by Lee Strobel

When Was Jesus Born?

 History doesn't p(name removed by moderator)oint Jesus' birthday.  Spring is most likely,

because shepherds were watching their flocks at night and this is when
ewes bore their young. In fact, around AD 200, theologians concluded
Jesus was born on May 20. “Others”, said journalist Terry Mattingly,
“argued for dates in April and March. This wasn’t a major issue, since
early Christians emphasized the Epiphany on January 6, marking Christ’s
baptism.”

 In AD 385, Pope Julius I declared December 25 as the day for

celebrating Christ’s birth. “He chose that date,” Christian researcher
Gretchen Passantino told me, “partly to challenge the pagan celebration
of the Roman god Saturnalia, which was characterized by social disorder
and immorality.”

 

[Ian_Ward]

you know i don’t know much about it, so I can say the Spirit of Christmas is whats matters most.

 

[Aizi]

I’m trying to defend why we have Christmas. The charge or the other party says

“Just a thought on this whole “Save Christmas” thing most of the religious crowd are on about, did you know that nearly every Christmas tradition was stolen from the pagans? I mean, even the star on the tree is derived from the pentagram”.

I started by saying that when we were going to teach the gospel we had to use things that the culture new about. Like with the celts we used the sun so that’s why we have a Celtic cross. But it is ended by the other party saying “The point is dude that many Pagan traditions were adopted by Catholicism or outright stolen”.

What do I say.

I can’t stand that line of thought.

But it is simple enough to respond–it flat out was not “stolen”. The pentagram is a mathematical symbol, and while it predates Christianity it doesn’t make it a pagan symbol, since it has meant different things in different context–when one puts the star on their tree, its meant to represent a star. The Christmas Tree has a Christian origin.

The only links they can make between Christianity and paganism are often the broadest of strokes–“they both sometimes had trees, they both sometimes gave gifts”, etc. All you need to do is look up the origins of this stuff, and none of it really matches up.

And in the rare case when stuff does “match up” that doesn’t make it “stolen” which implies that you are depriving another culture. Latin was first used by pagans as well, does that make the Latin language “stolen”? It’s perfectly possible to take the same symbols and some of the most broad ideas (like gift giving) and place them in a new context, and the people who were doing this were the people who converted from their old pagan traditions. So I think for the rare cases when there is a genuine link, you can just point out that its not proper “stealing” at all.

 

[TarlsQtr]

I prefer the word “transformed.” See the quote below from Father Greeley.

“It might be easy to run away to a monastery, away from the commercialization, the hectic hustle, the demanding family responsibilities of Christmas-time. Then we would have a holy Christmas. But we would forget the lesson of the Incarnation, of the enfleshing of God—the lesson that we who are followers of Jesus do not run from the secular; rather we try to transform it. It is our mission to make holy the secular aspects of Christmas just as the early Christians baptized the Christmas tree. And we do this by being holy people—kind, patient, generous, loving, laughing people—no matter how maddening is the Christmas rush…”
Fr. Andrew Greeley

Now there is a slight difference between secularization and “pagan” but the transformation is the same. Christ made formerly pagan symbols Holy.

 

[DavidWJackson]

Very good explanations Della pg. one and oneGODoneCHURCH pg. two first comment. We might also consider the Virgin of Guadalupe and how she is depict upon Her shawl standing on the moon; the high god of the aztecs. It is to repersent Mary crushing this god under foot. So the true Almighty God establishes His high holy days upon the hightest holy days of false gods crushing these false gods and their religion under His foot. Almighty God reestablishes before man what belongs to Him. He created everything seen and unseen in the first place. God owns everything. God only lets us borrow of His created works. God than watches to see what we do with His things.