Stealing items off the internet

[markomalley]

Hey,
Im a teen guy and I love computers- I got my first one when I was 9.
well in the past couple of years ive started to learn how to download, distribute, copy, even do a little hacking myself. In that time ive downloaded 35+ games, just as many songs and soundtracks a few movies etc etc

Its not been till recently that Ive really thought about wether it is immoral or not. The funny thing is I HAVE been to confession about it- but my confessor wasnt quite sure how to elaborate- he wasnt really in the computer era if you get what I mean

Some things I use for good- e.g I will download soundtracks for movies that are sometimes spiritual

Say to install a program, I have to tweak it- maybe to get around a registraion requirement- Is it stealing? because im technically changing the program. Maybe its just the fault of the creator to not protect his program

If I do stop should I remove all downloaded content???

Imagine you’re an inventor.

You invent this widget that does something really useful. Something really unique that nobody else has ever invented.

You decide to go into business and start making and selling these widgets.

First, it took a lot of your own time to develop your widget. It probably took a lot of investment in tools and raw materials. You undoubtedly used a lot of your personal creativity in the initial idea and developing that idea into a marketable product. The tools and materials as well as your time are worth something.

Then you’re counting on making back that investment from selling the widget and hopefully will make some money to boot. In order to help you with the widget manufacturing, you may have even hired on some people to work with you. Those people’s salaries are paid for with widget sales.

Now suppose somebody breaks in your widget plant and steals the complete specifications and drawings for that widget. You’re going to be pretty upset.

Let’s say that you had only a cheap lock on the door. Does that give the thief an excuse for stealing your stuff? No.

Let’s say that the thief is only going to make widgets for himself, using your plans. Does that make it OK? No. Him taking your specifications and drawings not only is a matter of theft, he is also not giving you the income that you are due.

Let’s say that the thief starts up his own widget plant and starts to sell his counterfeit widgets to his friends and neighbors. That’s really going to make you mad.

On the other hand, let’s say the thief took the specifications and drawings he stole and made a couple of changes to them. Then it’s OK, right? Hardly.

Let’s say the thief just makes his own widgets. But he photocopies your widget specifications and drawings and passes them out, free of charge, to all of his friends and neighbors so that they can also make their own widgets. You’d probably still have a problem with that, even if he made little changes to them.

All of this is really easy to understand with physical things, such as widgets.

Intellectual property theft is theft.

And if it’s not OK with physical things, why would it be OK with movies, music, or software?

 

[Xlainamo]

So you are saying it is more similar to defrauding a workman of his wages. And you think that is morally acceptable?

No, it is more similar to renting/borrowing/sharing a book/game/dvd from a friend instead of buying it

 

[markomalley]

No, it is more similar to renting/borrowing/sharing a book/game/dvd from a friend instead of buying it

Try this as an analogy: it is more similar to photocopying a book rather than buying it.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

To play the Devil’s Advocate, there’s a couple issues at play here.

1. Copyright Laws differ depending on the country. Some countries have none, for example, others impose harsh penalties.
2. You might own the DVD, CD, books, but you may want to have a backup.
3. A philosophical argument could be made that if you had no intention of buying it in the first place, there’s no harm in downloading it.
4. You’re using a no longer sold copy of the software.

Do I have pirated items? Yes I do. I have downloaded music, and have a couple of gigabytes there. I’ll likely delete the ones I don’t want, and head over to iTunes and legally buy the copies I want there.

I downloaded some comics. I might delete them until I buy them on Comixology. Or keep them on a storage device and not read them further until I buy the copies.

I have several ebooks of Star Wars books. I legally bought each book, and had to get rid of them when I became homeless at one point. Because I legally bought them, I don’t have an issue with having downloaded them.

So those three are pretty clear cut; either I find it acceptable or I will be taking steps to help make them acceptable. There’s two piracy cases that I struggle with:

I have several D&D books, which are in PDF format. They cost 30 bucks a pop. I can’t bring myself to spend an extra 30 bucks per book for incremental increases. I acknowledge this likely isn’t right, and I’m trying to divest myself of this mentality.

I have a pirated copy of Adobe CS2, which is wildly out of date (I think they’re at CS 5 now). I don’t use it for commercial purposes, and ironically I use it to help create materials for my parish. CS 5, full version, costs five thousand dollars. This is one element of piracy I struggle with currently.

I believe all this falls in the category of rationalizing illegal activity. You have by your own admission stolen property and are now looking for some cover, there is none. Stealing is both sinful and illegal.

 

[Xlainamo]

And if it’s not OK with physical things, why would it be OK with movies, music, or software?

Your example is thorough and well written. However it sounds more similar to industrial espionage and illegitimate competion than piracy.

If I were in the inventor’s place? Yes I would be angered and disappointed, however:

Let’s say the thief just makes his own widgets. But he photocopies your widget specifications and drawings and passes them out, free of charge, to all of his friends and neighbors so that they can also make their own widgets.

…that would seem somehow moral to me, and I would feel some personal appreciation for him

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Civil law is not the same as God’s law. I only care about following the latter.

And the former includes obedience towards civil authority.

So can you make a case, other than referring to civil law, as to why filesharing is immoral?

It’s stealing. It’s disobeying your lawful superiors.

 

[onjac]

I’d say you should try to avoid downloading things for free off the Internet unless it was meant to be free. It’s a good way though to see if you really enjoy it or not. I listen to my music online and if I like it a lot (as in, I keep going on YouTube to listen to it), I buy it on iTunes. Or get it cheaper off a cd. But realistically, I try to do it for less mainstream artists to show my support. It might seem expensive but I don’t always have time to listen to music and I like keep my library to a minimum of things I really like. Which isn’t a lot.

Of course, there are remixes and some songs that I can’t find available for purchase. If that’s the case, I download it.

Same goes for movies. Except for newly broadcasted tv episodes since I don’t have TV and I try to see if I like the series enough or not.

I’m kind of an oddball though. I do it more for the fact that I hate having to relabel and organize most of the stuff I download for free.

 

[Bearontherun]

I don’t consider illegitimate downloading same as ‘stealing’. When I download a piece of software I have deprived some programmers from my money I would otherwise had given. However it is not the same as stealing a loaf of bread or a book because software is not expendable and your neighbour still has his own copy.

It does not matter how you view it, by the law it is stealing. You are stealing bread off the table of the developers because you hurt their wages. The prices go up and you too will suffer eventually.

What people do behind closed doors when they think they won’t get caught is a real test of character. Please stop trying to justify theft.

 

[markomalley]

Your example is thorough and well written. However it sounds more similar to industrial espionage and illegitimate competion than piracy.

If I were in the inventor’s place? Yes I would be angered and disappointed, however:

…that would seem somehow moral to me, and I would feel some personal appreciation for him

I have had my intellectual property stolen before. I will tell you that it is not OK.

I developed a communications system for the use by part of the US government. I spent literally thousands of hours including nights and weekends on this project. When done, we provided the design as part of a proposal to the government with the protections of FAR 15.609 (which states that we retain all rights to the design and are simply providing it to the government for evaluation). Well, our proposal was rejected – but the government provided this design to a competitor and awarded them a contract for $54 million.

My firm’s corporate headquarters decided not to pursue the matter through the courts because they were working on a number of larger proposals with that same government agency and they felt that a protest would jeopardize their chances of winning some other, larger contracts.

So my division was out $54 million (and I was out a sizable bonus – likely over $100k – which I would have gotten had we won the contract). Because somebody didn’t respect our intellectual property rights. They literally took our design, made a copy of it, and gave it to somebody else.

I’m not whining about that…sometimes business can be rough.

But the point is that, although not one single physical item was stolen, the theft of that knowledge was, in my book, very costly. And the person who actually did the theft (the person who made the copies and released the information) had no financial interest…he was just doing a favor for a buddy of his.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

I think many people seem to think that God doesn’t exist in the world of the internet. Well… He does.

 

[Xlainamo]

It does not matter how you view it, by the law it is stealing.

Yes it is illegal.

Please stop trying to justify theft.

I don’t, because I don’t consider it theft but rather ‘not-buying’.

Stealing means making someone poorer. Filesharing is making someone ‘not-richer’.

The copy of software you have not bought will still be available for a buyer. You have not stolen the copy and its possibility to be bought.

Now, I am not telling that anyone should download pirated software and just pray for someone else to buy it. I am just saying why “theft” or “stealing” is a way too insufficient word (and deliberately too negative) to describe filesharing.

 

[Xlainamo]

I have had my intellectual property stolen before. I will tell you that it is not OK.

And I have created intellectual work for which I have not been paid. I sympathize with you.

Just a question: what happened to you was legal or illegal?

Still your experience of intellectual theft is not the same as filesharing. Your experience is about the original patent stealing. They deprived you from the ability to be commercialised at all.

When you are downloading a pirated copy of Photoshop you are just downloading its usage. You are not downloading the source code to exploit and divulge it, depriving thus Adobe from commercializing it.

How would have you felt if your project had been commercialized, yet a certain percentage (be it 10% or 80%) of it was pirated?

Please consider the above as an attempt to define and view the complex matter of filesharing from different perspectives. I believe it is far more complex than “it is theft” and yes, it can be moral. Not always, but it can.

 

[Xlainamo]

I think many people seem to think that God doesn’t exist in the world of the internet. Well… He does.

As far as I know, we never claimed that cyber-sex, cyber-bullying, hacking, stealing of personal information and virus programming are moral because “God doesn’t exist in the world of the internet.”

Some of us have claimed that the world of the Internet can have different definitions and conesquently a different morality from the physical world. Direct analogues to traditional terminology are insufficient.

Three posts in a row. Better have a break.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

People who create deserve to be paid, plain and simple. Taking it from them, even if their product is in electronic form, is theft. Take that to the limit and there is no reason to create software or music when the product will be stolen by anyone with the ability.

Booksellers are still paid for Shakespeare even though it is readily available for free online. You don’t need copyright to get recompense.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Imagine you’re an inventor.

You invent this widget that does something really useful. Something really unique that nobody else has ever invented.

You decide to go into business and start making and selling these widgets.

First, it took a lot of your own time to develop your widget. It probably took a lot of investment in tools and raw materials. You undoubtedly used a lot of your personal creativity in the initial idea and developing that idea into a marketable product. The tools and materials as well as your time are worth something.

Then you’re counting on making back that investment from selling the widget and hopefully will make some money to boot. In order to help you with the widget manufacturing, you may have even hired on some people to work with you. Those people’s salaries are paid for with widget sales.

Now suppose somebody breaks in your widget plant and steals the complete specifications and drawings for that widget. You’re going to be pretty upset.

Let’s say that you had only a cheap lock on the door. Does that give the thief an excuse for stealing your stuff? No.

Let’s say that the thief is only going to make widgets for himself, using your plans. Does that make it OK? No. Him taking your specifications and drawings not only is a matter of theft, he is also not giving you the income that you are due.

Let’s say that the thief starts up his own widget plant and starts to sell his counterfeit widgets to his friends and neighbors. That’s really going to make you mad.

On the other hand, let’s say the thief took the specifications and drawings he stole and made a couple of changes to them. Then it’s OK, right? Hardly.

Let’s say the thief just makes his own widgets. But he photocopies your widget specifications and drawings and passes them out, free of charge, to all of his friends and neighbors so that they can also make their own widgets. You’d probably still have a problem with that, even if he made little changes to them.

All of this is really easy to understand with physical things, such as widgets.

Intellectual property theft is theft.

And if it’s not OK with physical things, why would it be OK with movies, music, or software?

Laws broken in your scenario: breaking and entering and theft of property. No one ever said that forcibly copying something from someone in this manner was moral. This is again dodging the heart of the issue.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

And the former includes obedience towards civil authority.

It’s stealing. It’s disobeying your lawful superiors.

The moral obligation to follow civil authority only applies when that civil authority is compelling us to act morally. We are not obligated to follow immoral laws.

 

[Bearontherun]

Breaking a “Terms of Use Agreement” is not ethical or moral.

What ever happened to “love your neighbour as yourself?”

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

I’ve just came off a long, long discussion with a friend about this. I’m beginning to doubt my position. It’s essentially down to whether or not it’s within government’s authority to create copyright laws.

smndtupidisaftr, you say copyright is immoral, please explain.

 

[Angela77]

Yeah…I don’t think that’s the best thing to be doing. If I were you, I would stop and get rid of what I had downloaded so far.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Breaking a “Terms of Use Agreement” is not ethical or moral.

What ever happened to “love your neighbour as yourself?”

That is something very different than copyright law. But you have to remember that those terms of use agreements do not apply to those who did not sign the contract.