Stephen Fry - Why does God let children suffer?

[PRmerger]

If the Catholic Church is the one with the monopoly on the truth about God (as it claims),

You have, again, been misinformed about the CC.

The CC proclaims that it has the “fullness of truth”, but that certainly doesn’t mean that it has a “monopoly” on the truth.

I guarantee you that you can search the entirety of Church documents, from St. Peter’s first encyclicals to our current Pope’s encyclicals, and you will not find the idea that the CC has a “monopoly on the truth about God”.

then whatever the Catholic Church does is indicative of God’s will.

When she is consonant with Truth, then she is indeed doing God’s will.

But when sin and imperfection present itself, then she has divorced herself from God’s will.

 

[PRmerger]

Correct, I wouldn’t say there’s a logical contradiction.

Excellent.

So we can dismiss your objection with this: it’s simply an emotional response to death that a Believer has when she mourns the mortality of her loved one.

 

[Lucy107]

You have, again, been misinformed about the CC.

The CC proclaims that it has the “fullness of truth”, but that certainly doesn’t mean that it has a “monopoly” on the truth.

I guarantee you that you can search the entirety of Church documents, from St. Peter’s first encyclicals to our current Pope’s encyclicals, and you will not find the idea that the CC has a “monopoly on the truth about God”.

“fullness of truth” = monopoly on the truth

When she is consonant with Truth, then she is indeed doing God’s will.

But when sin and imperfection present itself, then she has divorced herself from God’s will.

Except that it is this same Church that is the arbiter of the Truth, so your point is moot.

Are we agreed that people shouldn’t treat you badly because they disagree with your rejection of their religion?

Yes?

If one particular religion has the monopoly on what is the truth about God, then however this group behaves (even if it kills, rapes, and pillages), is morally right.

(And I never rejected their religion; this is your projection and of those Christians. In my mind, I never felt I have considered their religion to the point where I could meaningfully talk about rejecting it or accepting it.)

 

[PRmerger]

And I never said I oppose the submission to authority.

Fair enough.

I just need to know first that someone in fact is an authority.

It is impossible not to submit to someone who actually has authority: it’s done simply in that the one with authority actually overpowers others.

But in Catholicism, I see nothing but their claim “We are the authority”,

Have you studied how the CC claims her authority?

Were you told by someone that the Church simply claims, “We are the authority on all things about God” without any apologia whatsoever?

 

[AyJSimon]

Excellent.

So we can dismiss your objection with this: it’s simply an emotional response to death that a Believer has when she mourns the mortality of her loved one.

What is the basis for that emotional response, given what that same Believer believes to be true about heaven?

 

[PRmerger]

“fullness of truth” = monopoly on the truth

No, Lucy.

All people are invited to share in this truth.

Except that it is this same Church that is the arbiter of the Truth, so your point is moot.

Who else is the arbiter of truth? Every human person?

So does that mean that the Rev. Fred Phelps gets to say that his truth “God hates homosexuals!” is true, and it is?

If one particular religion has the monopoly on what is the truth about God, then however this group behaves (even if it kills, rapes, and pillages), is morally right.

That would be correct if this religion simply proposed: do what I declare, without any understanding or questioning.

Is there somewhere where you believe Catholicism proposes that killing, raping and pillaging are God’s will?

If so, could you please cite the document where the Church states God commands this?

(And I never rejected their religion; this is your projection and of those Christians. In my mind, I never felt I have considered their religion to the point where I could meaningfully talk about rejecting it or accepting it.)

Fair enough.

Let’s have you consider Catholicism here on its merits.

 

[Lucy107]

Have you studied how the CC claims her authority?

Not sure we mean the same things here.

Were you told by someone that the Church simply claims, “We are the authority on all things about God” without any apologia whatsoever?

Of course they give reasons. I’m just not convinced by them. And as far as I know them, they’d say my not being convinced is the work of the devil, or that I am just acting on my free will, or some such.

If someone were to come along and claim, “I am God. Submit to me!”
I’d say, “Alright. Show me what you can do! There’s all kinds of beings out there claiming to be God, and before I submit to you, you must prove to me that you’re good for it.”
And then I’d propose to this being a number of tests that would, to the best of my knowledge, test if this being is God.

Similar if someone claims to be God’s fully empowered representative. I’d test them.

From what I have seen about theists of different denominations, my suggestion above is generally considered grossly rude and utterly unacceptable,
People don’t like to be tested.

 

[PRmerger]

What is the basis for that emotional response, given what that same Believer believes to be true about heaven?

I don’t try to explain emotional responses, Simon.

That would make it a…*rational *response, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Of course they give reasons. I’m just not convinced by them.

Can you offer these reasons that were presented to you, as to how the Church claims her authority?

 

[Lucy107]

Can you offer these reasons that were presented to you, as to how the Church claims her authority?

1. Unbroken disciplic succession from Jesus on.
2. Contact with the Holy Spirit.

 

[PRmerger]

1. Unbroken disciplic succession from Jesus on.
2. Contact with the Holy Spirit.

Well, it’s no wonder you reject the arguments for the Church being our authority!

Those are pretty lame arguments you were presented with.

Let’s start with this, before we can establish that the Church has authority, we have to establish whether you believe in the historical Jesus.

Do you believe a man named Jesus walked around this earth, had some men who followed him around, and that this man was crucified and reported to have risen from the dead?

 

[Lucy107]

All people are invited to share in this truth.

Which is why people of different religions are famous for loving and respecting eachother …

Who else is the arbiter of truth?

If the CC is the one who gets to set the terms, then it will undoubtedly set them to its own advantage. It’s not going to shoot itself in the foot, is it, by declaring standards that itself cannot live up to.

So does that mean that the Rev. Fred Phelps gets to say that his truth “God hates homosexuals!” is true, and it is?

I don’t know.

That would be correct if this religion simply proposed: do what I declare, without any understanding or questioning.

It proposes, “Do what I declare. You may understand or question, but only in the limits I have specified.”

Is there somewhere where you believe Catholicism proposes that killing, raping and pillaging are God’s will?

No, but I’m sure Catholics will find a way to defend it. They did so with the Crusades, or pretty much any other mean thing they were involved in.

If so, could you please cite the document where the Church states God commands this?

Obviously it doesn’t state such, but it tends to find a way to justify it. The CC in Europe has a bloody history, and seems to be perfectly allright about it.

Fair enough.

Well, that’s new. The Catholics I’ve known so far are simply “He that is not with me is against me. End of story.”

Let’s have you consider Catholicism here on its merits.

If Catholicism is true, then you know that that cannot be done.

 

[Lucy107]

Let’s start with this, before we can establish that the Church has authority, we have to establish whether you believe in the historical Jesus.

Do you believe a man named Jesus walked around this earth, had some men who followed him around, and that this man was crucified and reported to have risen from the dead?

Those are mundane matters that you list there. For those I have only provisional belief or provisional trust.

Well, it’s no wonder you reject the arguments for the Church being our authority!

And no, again, I never said I reject them. I am just not convinced by them.

 

[PRmerger]

What is the basis for that emotional response, given what that same Believer believes to be true about heaven?

I can give an example from my own life: during my daughters’ high school graduations I cried.

College is a good place. I wanted them to go to college. I knew that they were going off to college.

And yet I cried at their high school graduation.

Surely you’re not actually proposing that I didn’t really, truly, actually believe that college existed because I cried when they graduated from high school…right?

 

[PRmerger]

Which is why people of different religions are famous for loving and respecting eachother …

Yes. I do know many people of different religions who love and respect each other.

And it’s probably precisely* because* they are religious that they do this.

http://www.lancasterdiocese.org.uk/Images/content/1629/382317.jpg

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news_images/2005-4-3-poeislam.jpg

http://www.oclarim.com.mo/en/files/2015/01/Pope-Francis-Sri-Lanka-6-300x169.jpg

 

[PRmerger]

So does that mean that the Rev. Fred Phelps gets to say that his truth “God hates homosexuals!” is true, and it is?

I don’t know.

Wow.

Ouch.

Scary.

Thank goodness there are indeed religious people who can stop the Rev. Fred Phelps and his ilk from proposing lies.

People who “don’t know” what’s right and wrong simply permit evil to spread.

 

[AyJSimon]

I can give an example from my own life: during my daughters’ high school graduations I cried.

College is a good place. I wanted them to go to college. I knew that they were going off to college.

And yet I cried at their high school graduation.

Surely you’re not actually proposing that I didn’t really, truly, actually believe that college existed because I cried when they graduated from high school…right?

Um…people do tend to cry when they’re happy. Many women (and some men) cry when they get engaged - which is happy event, generally speaking.

Are you trying to suggest that a parent is actually crying tears of joy when their child gets terminal bone cancer?

 

[PRmerger]

If the CC is the one who gets to set the terms, then it will undoubtedly set them to its own advantage. It’s not going to shoot itself in the foot, is it, by declaring standards that itself cannot live up to.

Really.

Can you offer some explanation, then, for what Catholicism sets up a standard that divorce and re-marriage is adultery?

Why would she do that? It has certainly resulted in lots of “shootings” with a mass exodus of divorced Catholics wishing to re-marry.

I can give you a whole list of unpalatable Catholic standards that refute your position.

It proposes, “Do what I declare. You may understand or question, but only in the limits I have specified.”

Source, please.

No, but I’m sure Catholics will find a way to defend it. They did so with the Crusades, or pretty much any other mean thing they were involved in.

Again, abusus non tollit usum.

If you can give some Church document that limns the fact that the Church declares that God commands we rape and pillage, that would be helpful.

Obviously it doesn’t state such, but it tends to find a way to justify it. The CC in Europe has a bloody history, and seems to be perfectly allright about it.

Again, a Church document that justifies killing and rape is warranted.

Well, that’s new. The Catholics I’ve known so far are simply “He that is not with me is against me. End of story.”

I am sorry that you were not well-equipped enough to counter that with some actual Church teaching.

There is no such thing as “This is what we believe. End of story” with Catholic apologetics.

If Catholicism is true, then you know that that cannot be done.

Ah. So is it true then that your mind is made up? This statement seems to affirm that you are actually recusant to any apologia?

Is that a correct assessment of your position?

 

[Lucy107]

Thank goodness there are indeed religious people who can stop the Rev. Fred Phelps and his ilk from proposing lies.

People who “don’t know” what’s right and wrong simply permit evil to spread.

Right and wrong according to whom?

It’s not like Catholics are beyond claiming the sort of things Mr. Phelps claimed.
Those same Catholics who get to be so extremely privileged to be members of the one and only fully true religion.

 

[PRmerger]

Um…people do tend to cry when they’re happy. Many women (and some men) cry when they get engaged - which is happy event, generally speaking.

Are you trying to suggest that a parent is actually crying tears of joy when their child gets terminal bone cancer?

I was crying in sadness, Simon.