Stephen Fry - Why does God let children suffer?

[faithsmind]

Right, I see that, but there’s a huge difference between being held down for vaccinations and going into the Holocaust.

If you’re trying to say that the reason why sometimes the innocent suffer so terribly is a mystery, then I would have to agree (at this present point in time with my current knowledge). It’s apparently a mystery that God has not explained or really addressed in Scripture, which is interesting.

This law of nature–physical suffering, is not barred from the innocent. It must be this way. We are what we are. We remain humble–chained for now to this dirt. But God transcends. He creates the stars and the cosmos, and deep and mysterious longings within us. In this way, He stirs within us a longing and a hope for more. This desire, this drive is very, very good. I believe it is what moves us, keeps us alive. How can we have this longing if we are NOT chained, for now. How can we have appreciation and value of transcendent mercy if we are NOT chained to these merciless laws of nature?

 

[faithsmind]

And now this verse becomes clear:
John 9: 1-3
Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

Let us remember and celebrate The Lamb of God’s suffering on the crucifix, today. Let us offer it up during these 40 day for Life in remembrance of those aborted who remain chained to the merciless laws of nature.

 

[faithsmind]

Still thinking on this today, friends.
I mean, wow, every time God gives a mom a frail, vulnerable baby, He is taking a huge risk, right. But it’s definitely worth it. Let’s make it worth it.

 

[Achilles6129]

This is not true. God has explained it and addressed it in Scripture. And it has been addressed in numerous writings and texts.

That it doesn’t quite satisfy…I would have to agree.

But to say that “God has not explained or really addressed in Scripture” is categorically incorrect.

OK - where has it been explained and addressed in Scripture?

 

[Achilles6129]

But the difference between those 2 things is finite.

The difference between the human father and God the Father is infinite.

So, if anything, the analogy doesn’t do enough justice to how infinitely LIMITED our human understanding is.

IOW: Compare God trying to explain to humanity why he permits suffering to a human father trying to explain to a 5 yr old why he is permitting the vaccination…and you can see how inadequate the analogy is.

Except it’s in the OPPOSITE way that you mean.

Sorry I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say here.

 

[Achilles6129]

In Romans 5:1-5, St. Paul reminds us that suffering brings us closer to being like Christ.

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we[c] rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 More than that, we[d] rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

But why do we need to be like Christ in His suffering?

He seems to answer this question in Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

We have the power, it seems to add our own sufferings to the Cross of Jesus Christ, for the redemption of the Church.

Our first Pope also adjures us:

But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

• 1 Peter 4:13

When we say, “offer it up,” we mean, offer your sufferings to Jesus on the Cross, and let it be for the redemption of souls - rather than complain.

Interesting interpretation.

 

[Achilles6129]

Of course there is such a way in which God can try our faith. It begins the moment one wakes up in the morning. Is one willing to devote all one’s actions to the service of God? Is one willing to wash up the service of God? Is one willing to eat breakfast the service of God? and so on.

If one does so, things look different then.

Right, so God doesn’t have to use the suffering of small children/infants in order to try someone’s faith. He could do that without their suffering. So then why use that particular method when it could be avoided? I think that seems to say that the reason small children/infants suffer isn’t to try our faith, after all. There must be another reason.

 

[jmcrae]

Right, so God doesn’t have to use the suffering of small children/infants in order to try someone’s faith. He could do that without their suffering. So then why use that particular method when it could be avoided? I think that seems to say that the reason small children/infants suffer isn’t to try our faith, after all. There must be another reason.

Suffering exists because we live in a fallen world. It touches all of us because we are all children of Adam. What we do with it is the real question. Do we give it to Jesus on the Cross? Or do we allow it to steal our faith in God?

 

[faithsmind]

OK - where has it been explained and addressed in Scripture?

It’s addressed when Jesus ( an “innocent victim”) suffered and died on the cross. And then that occurrence is addressed by Paul.

 

[PRmerger]

OK - where has it been explained and addressed in Scripture?

One place is Job.

Another: (from our Catechism)

The man of the Old Testament lives his sickness in the presence of God. It is before God that he laments his illness, and it is of God, Master of life and death, that he implores healing.(Pss 6:3; 38; Isa 38.)

Illness becomes a way to conversion; God’s forgiveness initiates the healing.(Pss 32:5; 38:5; 39:9, 12; 107:20; cf. Mk 2:5-12.)

It is the experience of Israel that illness is mysteriously linked to sin and evil, and that faithfulness to God according to his law restores life: “For I am the Lord, your healer.” (Ex 15:26.)

The prophet intuits that suffering can also have a redemptive meaning for the sins of others. (Isa 53:11.)

Finally Isaiah announces that God will usher in a time for Zion when he will pardon every offense and heal every illness.(Isa 33:24.)

 

[faithsmind]

OK - where has it been explained and addressed in Scripture?

Oh yeah. It’s also addressed in John 9: 1-3. And a reminder; afterwards, the Pharisees ignored Jesus’s statement and cure which occurs here, and instead focused on the religious labels that surrounded it in order to ensnare Jesus–thereby completely missing the point.

And so, both of these biblical examples further support my belief that innocent victims occur for the sake and hope of love’s existence.

The same concept can be applied to parents:
Would a good and loving adult (subbed for god) choose to have a child? Because a good and loving adult absolutely knows there is pain and death in the world. Wouldn’t this adult want to protect his innocent child from this mess?
If this Stephen dude has a child, it would completely contradict his argument.

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say here.

What part?

You do see that the gap between a 5 yr old and an adult is finite, yes?

But that the gap between a human father and God the Father is infinite, right?

So look at the analogy again:

5 yr old doesn’t understand : adult who doesn’t understand

human father has good reason for permitting suffering : God the Father has good reasons for permitting suffering.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

“Why does God let children suffer?”

Perhaps because He doesn’t - we do.

Throughout the Gospels, Jesus tells us that we are responsible to one another, and that we should see Christ Himself in the suffering and afflicted and treat them accordingly. We have been warned explicitly what the consequences of ignoring that responsibility will be on the Day of Judgement. We have all been given the great warrant to act on God’s behalf to render aid to the suffering.

The free will we have been given which allows to us to commit outrages against the person and dignity of others also allows us to act as God’s agents to prevent that same suffering, whether that suffering occurred from human malice or the reasonless actions of nature.

Look at this another way: God has the ultimate moral authority to designate both authority *and * responsibility to us as His creations to act on his behalf to prevent and alleviate suffering. As God is by definition the Prime Mover, so He is the Prime Actor - all good actions, all just actions, all merciful actions ultimately originated in Him. When one of His creations acts in a just manner or a charitable manner to prevent or alleviate suffering, we are acting on His behalf.

In the same way a police chief or the head of a hospital can use the people under his or her command to prevent and to alleviate suffering, We do not say that either person has abdicated his or her responsibility by using moral agents to perform those missions.

When Stephen Fry or you or I pontificate or debate this, we are wasting time that could be spent preventing or alleviating suffering. The weakest, most powerless, and the frailest among us still have the power to reduce suffering, whether by giving alms or simply by praying for others, as in Christ’s observation about the poor woman who gave some of her earnings to the poor.

I would say the men and women working at your local St. Vincent de Paul Society’s soup kitchen or thrift store, the man who gives a dollar through his car window to the old schizophrenic standing on the street corner for a warm meal, the woman who comforts her child after a bad day at school, the co-worker who takes the time to listen to a friend who has going through a bad problem…all have done more to answer this question than Stephen Fry has.

How much of our daily life to we devote to preventing or alleviating the suffering of others?

 

[Veector]

Maybe if God were to do this it would draw people to Him. Many people turn away from God because of suffering. How is that good for their souls? In the gospels Jesus healed people who were suffering. He didn’t say “Let them suffer, it’s good for their souls.”

The path where people suffer and all, is where we Christians are supposed to come in. That’s where we’re meant show the love of God in us, to others. And some of us do do this, in our own little way.

 

[thinkandmull]

God’s peace. Notice how atheists always try to take the high moral ground, presuming that they can be the judge of the God of creation! I’ve been thinking about this all morning. How about these responses?

1. Why is this a bad thing, if pain is an adaptive response to a harmful stimulus which tends to promote survival? On the whole, pain prevents more suffering than it causes.
2. So you will give God the credit for causing bone cancer in a child, but you will deny him the credit for giving doctors and scientists the intellect, the will, and the healing arts that have led to successful treatment and the possible cure of cancer?
3. Who do you credit for beauty, and love, and goodness in the world?
4. But in your view, all paths lead to the grave and to oblivion, so both suffering and happiness are meaningless. In my view, all things in life are meaningful because they were created by the God of meaning, who promised that he would personally wipe away every tear from our eyes on that day when we see him as he is. Frankly, your view sucks.

I probably wouldn’t use the last one in an actual encounter with an atheist, since I avoid dealing with them. “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’” Blessings, ~Br. Carlo~

It’s not true to argue that God wisely gave us pain receptors so that we wouldn’t hurt ourselves. He could have given us a different mechanism, or thoughts, which we always felt obliged to follow, instead of pain

God does give doctors, but why not stop the pain right away. I have my own answer, but for another post maybe

Life isn’t totally meaningless without God. There could be an afterlife without Him, and life without an afterlife still had some meaning maybe, but ye it does seem basically meaningless. I see your point.

The problem with the argument from beauty is that how do we know the world isn’t infinitely beautiful and we just don’t recognize it. Or maybe motherhood is the highest of beauties. We have a world, greatest and lesser beauties exist in it. I don’t see a problem with that. Maybe I’m wrong.