Stephen Hawkings believes in God?

[yankee_doodle]

I don’t really believe you thought this through before posting it. First, there is that you say I would advocate sitting by without speaking. Have you read my posts? Second, you completely twisted what it is I said about zealots pushing dogmas. Read my post again and read it without the dogmatic goggles you have on at the moment.

Being zealous only becomes a problem when it prevents you from seeing things from another view point. I have seen things from the Christian view point and then I have seen things from the view point of one who was tired of religion. Then … I saw the sense in the Law of God which is cause and effect; though this is not something I believe in forcing on others … only I hope to help others to think about it. The reason I seem to be speaking against Christianity is only because of you and others misunderstanding my intentions. Rather I am trying to defend the point of view that the Tanakh was written from: the Law of cause and effect. This is what the Tanakh is based on. That you do not see it only shows you are blinded by your own ignorance. You are no match for a discussion with me concerning its content and thus, this will be fruitless unless you are able to overcome your narrow minded views.

To say you’re not acting just as dogmatic as everyone else here, is ridiculous. You say you’re not speaking against Christianity, rather only how they (according to you) twisted your bible. Well, isn’t the essence of Christianity a radically different approach to the old testament – verses the traditional Jewish view?

Therefore, you’re attacking the essence of Christianity, yet you imagine you’re not speaking against Christianity? That’s an internally inconsistent statement (and therefore reduces to the absurd).

As far as seeing things from the other point of view – I was raised as a Christian and I understand it’s tenants very well (along with its theology). My approach to critiquing religion generally doesn’t involve attacking its internal inconsistencies (which is easy enough), rather I attack it from the standpoint of its lack of evidence, and the parallels, which exist (in comparative mythology).

In other words, my attacks are scholastic, not emotive or otherwise irrational (and I attack the validity of theism more generally speaking on this same basis).

 

[simple_soul]

There is always the option to read what is actually written. I understand that it is hard to argue power of suggestions with someone who is using what is actually written … so, have a nice one. Perhaps you will have your wish to see what is there in front of your eyes. Good luck!

Thank you, but I do not believe “luck” has anything to do with understanding what is actually written down.

It is all in Divine revelation.

 

[Dokimas]

And why did John called Mark leave? Could have to do with Paul perhaps? I think so since it was Paul and not Barnabas who had the issue with him. Thus, my point is still valid.

I respectfully say that, IMO, you don’t understand. Seems we should agree to disagree. I know we’re not getting anywhere here.

 

[simplynoone]

You say you’re not speaking against Christianity, rather only how they (according to you) twisted your bible. Well, isn’t the essence of Christianity a radically different approach to the old testament – verses the traditional Jewish view?

Whilst I am perfectly willing to concede to being labeled dogmatic, I am being dogmatic toward the Truth. YOU can not say definitively that there is not God … and that you do is because you have your own personal issues with religion which has little to do with how much you care about this creation we are in and those who reside in it and as a part of it. Here is what you are here for: You don’t like religion and want everyone to cater to your likes and dislikes. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT IMPOSSIBLE MISSION. I am not sure if you have noticed or not, but they aren’t easily persuaded by even Reason, let alone by the pointless tantrums of an overgrown and spoiled brat.

I can however definitively say that the Christians distort the Tanakh, the view of the Jewish People, and the God of Israel by replacing, denying, and using power of suggestions for their own advantage which is made wrong by their willingness to put the Jewish People in harm’s way all in the attempt to be the replacement. of course, in my opinion, the bland rock in my backyard is not going to be accepted as the replacement for the gorgeous diamond … thus, well, I am sure you see the comparison I am making here. I am all for peoples trying to get on in the world … but not at the expense of another People, especially one so valuable to the world as are the Jews. Yup, I am dogmatic when it comes to the precious “things” that are in the world. I would like for them to remain intact for the future of my own personal offspring. I would not have them be deprived of the Beauty that I have been blessed to enjoy, that being the Jewish Mind.

As soon as the Church drops the Tanakh and their claim that they are the replacement for Israel (another People of completely different mindset), then my argument ceases to exist. It is as simple as that.

 

[simplynoone]

I respectfully say that, IMO, you don’t understand. Seems we should agree to disagree.

If it makes you feel more comfortable to let alone your NT, I can understand your decision.

 

[Dokimas]

If it makes you feel more comfortable to let alone your NT, I can understand your decision.

Now it’s my turn not to understand. What are you trying to communicate to me?

 

[Dokimas]

I agree with you, simply, that the church is NOT a replacement for the nation of Israel.​

Your agrument is not with Gentile Christians but with Jewish Christians like Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. Try www.ariel.org.​

And you’re argument is with Jews for Jesus.

 

[happilycatholic]

His open-mindedness doesn’t include reading any book that would be about God or religion or even a plausible reason for belief. I have given him several of Peter Kreeft’s books in hopes that he would be willing to read a secular philosophy professors view on belief in God. The books remained untouched for quite a long time and then he finally gave them back saying he didn’t have time to read them. However, he had lots of time to read other books that support his way of thinking and he has a lot of free time to play soccer, play poker (of course it’s Texas Hold 'em ). So, asked him why and he replied that he just wasn’t interested.

I don’t know if showing him anything about Stephen Hawkings will help or not. I guess I was hoping that an atheistic scientist that changed his mind MIGHT get him to begin reconsidering his belief.

The funny thing is…he told me that I had done a very good job in raising him in the Catholic Church and that his belief now wasn’t my fault. I can’t help but think that I obviously didn’t do a good job!

Kdesiel:

The instructor for the course he took was agnostic and I agree with you
that it’s probably not Philosophy itself that “convinced” him but the instructor he had for the course. Thank you for your prayers for him!!

Hisalone:

Yes, I know it will ultimately take the Power of God. I have been praying for him for quite a long time and I will continue as long as I’m alive. I offer the Rosary, The Chaplet of the Divine Mercy and Masses for his conversion. It just scares me that something might happen to him before he comes around. That thought terrifies me and keeps me praying for him.

PMo:

Don’t blame yourself. If your son was raised in Church and is now the age of reason, he is ‘making up his own mind’. Good or bad, that is the opportunity God gives all of us. We must all go to God of our own accord. .

If this were my son (my son is 25 now) I would ask him to have a study time each evening. I would limit the time because of attention span and we all know how religion can get tense.

I would ask him to just study with me. One night you choose the material, the next night he chooses. I might also advise him that every scientist must have information
to form a theory. He cannot form a relevant theory without relevant information.

The best he has right now is a one-sided opinion. No scientist ever got a theory published that way.

Good luck and all God’s blessings to you and your family!

~HC

Would he be open to that?

 

[yankee_doodle]

Whilst I am perfectly willing to concede to being labeled dogmatic, I am being dogmatic toward the Truth. YOU can not say definitively that there is not God … and that you do is because you have your own personal issues with religion

I can prove your religion is untrue (to a “reasonable” degree anyway, key word of course is reasonable). As for proving the non-existence of god, something we have absolutely no evidence of … the burden of proof is on those who make absurd and fantastic claims, not me

All I can show is belief in a god or gods is how humanity has always dealt with the unknown; and given that pattern its reasonable to conclude religion is just as false as its always been.

 

[Dokimas]

I can prove your religion is untrue (to a “reasonable” degree anyway, key word of course is reasonable). As for proving the non-existence of god, something we have absolutely no evidence of … the burden of proof is on those who make absurd and fantastic claims, not me

All I can show is belief in a god or gods is how humanity has always dealt with the unknown; and given that pattern its reasonable to conclude religion is just as false as its always been.

When you come to the reality God exists, you’ll realize that that you’re beliefs are absurd.​

Your way of dealing with the unknown is to say, ‘One day science will have all the answers.’ Science, therefore is your god and is no less absurd as you think belief in Jesus.

 

[simplynoone]

I can prove your religion is untrue (to a “reasonable” degree anyway, key word of course is reasonable).

A reasonable degree is not going to make the grade as definitive proof. Besides, that you even say that you can prove it wrong goes to not only show that you are void of understanding in regards to Judaism, but it also shows that your mind is made up against it before even trying to understand Judaism. So … things really aren’t going well for you here YD. If you’d like to give it a shot, I’ll play along. I find those kind of challenges enjoyable … sometimes, I even have the opportunity to learn something new from such a challenge. Let’s go!

As for proving the non-existence of god, something we have absolutely no evidence of … the burden of proof is on those who make absurd and fantastic claims, not me

Christians ~ YD just handed half the battle over to you by admitting he is not entirely sure. All you have to do is use your mind productively now and you’ll have him eating out of the palm of your hand.

Now, you are trying to tell me that I am making fantastic claims about God and that it is not you. Show me one I have made. I will show you yours … you are the one picking up my replies to try and sell your uncertainty to me. I reject your burden for it does not interest me. You should not assume I share the same insecurities as you do.

Do you know why I don’t bother to debate God? Because I know. Have you ever heard of the following piece of wisdom?, “Only that in you which is me can hear what I’m saying.” Baba Ram Das Deut 4:12 … You can not “hear” me because you do not understand me … and you do not understand me because we are not of the same mind. Your refusal to admit that you don’t know does not affect what I know … but it seems to be affecting what you thought you knew because you are clearly digressing from your original stance rather quickly.

All I can show is belief in a god or gods is how humanity has always dealt with the unknown; and given that pattern its reasonable to conclude religion is just as false as its always been.

Hmmm… show it then. Give me the pattern … from the beginning until the now. I’m curious.

 

[simplynoone]

I agree with you, simply, that the church is NOT a replacement for the nation of Israel.​

Your agrument is not with Gentile Christians but with Jewish Christians like Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. Try www.ariel.org.​

And you’re argument is with Jews for Jesus.

there is no such thing as a Jewish Christian. A Jew cannot be a Christian and Christain can not also be a Jew. So, the issue is still with the Gentile Christians as there is no other kind.

 

[Dokimas]

there is no such thing as a Jewish Christian. A Jew cannot be a Christian and Christain can not also be a Jew. So, the issue is still with the Gentile Christians as there is no other kind.

I know some Jews that would disagree with you.​

Pastor Lon Solomon of McClean Church is a Jewish Christian as is Dr Fruchtenbaum.

 

[simplynoone]

I know some Jews that would disagree with you.​

Pastor Lon Solomon of McClean Church is a Jewish Christian as is Dr Fruchtenbaum.

Deut 4:15,16; Deut 5:6-10 They worship another god according to another people and thus, they are the followers of that god. wha-la! Not Jew, but Christian! See, that is what the Laws are for! what is written in Malachi 3:6.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Besides, that you even say that you can prove it wrong goes to not only show that you are void of understanding in regards to Judaism, but it also shows that your mind is made up against it before even trying to understand Judaism. So … things really aren’t going well for you here YD. If you’d like to give it a shot, I’ll play along. I find those kind of challenges enjoyable … sometimes, I even have the opportunity to learn something new from such a challenge. Let’s go

you would have to begin by proving things like the Exodus (as it was recorded) really did happen. I’ll gladly play along … and even wish you good luck in advance (you’ll need it)

Christians ~ YD just handed half the battle over to you by admitting he is not entirely sure. All you have to do is use your mind productively now and you’ll have him eating out of the palm of your hand

nope … I’m sure.

Do you know why I don’t bother to debate God? Because I know. Have you ever heard of the following piece of wisdom?, “Only that in you which is me can hear what I’m saying.” Baba Ram Das Deut 4:12 … You can not “hear” me because you do not understand me … and you do not understand me because we are not of the same mind. Your refusal to admit that you don’t know does not affect what I know … but it seems to be affecting what you thought you knew because you are clearly digressing from your original stance rather quickly

yeah, I think I read it in a Chinese fortune cookie

Hmmm… show it then. Give me the pattern … from the beginning until the now. I’m curious.

sure, here’s a good article to start with.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_religion

here’s another one

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion

BTW you might be interested to learn the Jewish people aren’t credited for starting monotheism (read the articles)!
[/quote]

 

[Ranp]

I either heard or read somewhere that Stephen Hawkings now believes that God created the universe. Can anyone help me with this? I have a 31 yr son who has decided that God doesn’t exist and believes heavily in science. I’m trying to possibly get him to see that even the scientists believe in God. He dismisses anybody that I bring up to try to convince him as saying that they are all wrong. I’m lost as to what to do now. He keeps saying he is “open minded” but dismisses everything I show him without really looking at it or studying it to see if it could be true. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Consider the following:

In the beginning there was nothing and from the nothing can light.
The earth was formed.
The seas were formed.
The fish were created.
The animals were created.
Man was created.

Does the above match the Bible?
Does the above match the theories of the creation for the universe and man?

As a teaching assistant I helped teach evolution at The Catholic University of American for three years. I strongly believe in God and I clearly understand science and I find no conflict between them. I trust that Stephen Hawkings does not finds any conflict either.

 

[Dokimas]

Deut 4:15,16; Deut 5:6-10 They worship another god according to another people and thus, they are the followers of that god. wha-la! Not Jew, but Christian! See, that is what the Laws are for! what is written in Malachi 3:6.

Don’t you think it’s up to God and not you or me to decide if Jewish Christians or Gentile Christians worship the same God of the OLD TESTAMENT?

 

[simplynoone]

it’s a sufficient degree of proof to send a man to prison in the United States, so I think the reasonable doubt standard is a good one to live by.

I hope what you meant to say is that it is sufficient for a jury to rule in favor of another person who is being accused. Reasonable doubt is not enough to convinct a man, it is enough to vindicate him here in the states.

Now that I have corrected you mistake, think through what you said above in regards to this topic.

you would have to begin by proving things like the Exodus (as it was recorded) really did happen. I’ll gladly play along … and even wish you good luck in advance (you’ll need it)

Uhm, you are the one who made the claim that you can prove my religion is untrue. Prove that it didn’t happen.

nope … I’m sure.

No you are not by your own admission.

yeah, I think I read it in a Chinese fortune cookie

Now, do you understand it?

sure, here’s a good article to start with.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_religion

here’s another one

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion

How about telling me what YOU think rather than letting someone else do the work for you. I am in a discussion with you.

BTW you might be interested to learn the Jewish people aren’t credited for starting monotheism (read the articles)!

I am not going to go to a link … I am here to discuss and if you don’t know how to do it with your own words, then why are you here?

I would assume that you are referring to Akenaten; then, you should find it interesting that I agree with the analysis of Frued on this peculiar time in the history of the Pharoah’s. Strange is it not?, that suddenly monotheism pops up in the house of the Pharoah’s by a Pharoah who pushed hard to have the concept be recognized? Did you forget that Moses was adopted into the royal family?

 

[simplynoone]

Don’t you think it’s up to God and not you or me to decide if Jewish Christians or Gentile Christians worship the same God of the OLD TESTAMENT?

So, tell me … are there conditions to one being a Christian or no? I mean, are we all Christians? If not, then there are conditions. How is a person to find out those conditions? From your NT, right?

A Jew is known by his obedience to the Jewish Laws. The Torah outlines the conditions of being a Jew. If a Jew converts to Christianity, they have rejected the Jewish laws (the conditions), even to the point of accepting that a man was God.

We are all children of God being that He is the Creator of mankind, but God does not decide who is a Jew or not … their laws are the defining voice in that regard. To be a Christian is to be in defiance of their laws and thus, they willingly forfeit their Jewishness. They can deceive you and perhaps even some are deceiving their ownselves (which in most cases is hard to believe), but they can not deceive a person who knows and understand the Jewish laws.

 

[Dokimas]

So, tell me … are there conditions to one being a Christian or no? I mean, are we all Christians? If not, then there are conditions. How is a person to find out those conditions? From your NT, right?

A Jew is known by his obedience to the Jewish Laws. The Torah outlines the conditions of being a Jew. If a Jew converts to Christianity, they have rejected the Jewish laws (the conditions), even to the point of accepting that a man was God.

We are all children of God being that He is the Creator of mankind, but God does not decide who is a Jew or not … their laws are the defining voice in that regard. To be a Christian is to be in defiance of their laws and thus, they willingly forfeit their Jewishness. They can deceive you and perhaps even some are deceiving their ownselves (which in most cases is hard to believe), but they can not deceive a person who knows and understand the Jewish laws.

Are Jews looking for the Messiah? Can a person follow the laws and believe the Messiah has come? Can the Messiah say something that shows that He is the fullfilment of the laws and boil them down to two laws? The laws you speak of, do you think God always intended to have them as they are or were they brought in to bring boundaries for us because our ‘hearts’ so easily go astray?​

Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.

This tells me that God brought in the law, not because He wanted sacrifice, but because we need them because of the hardness of our hearts.​

Ps 51:16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering.
1Sa 15:22 Then Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.​

If we, by our nature, obeyed, we wouldn’t need to sacrifice. BTW, God provided His Sacrifice: Jesus of Nazareth.​

Isa 1:11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats.​

Ho 6:6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.​

Ps 54:6 I will freely sacrifice to You; I will praise Your name, O LORD, for it is good.
Ps 107:22 Let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, And declare His works with rejoicing.
Ps 116:17 I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving, And will call upon the name of the LORD.