you’re right atheists don’t believe in original sin. We’re imperfect creatures yes, but there’s a reason why almost every leading scientist and thinker today is secular (compared with leading thinkers centuries ago). We have more information today.
I think you have more information, but this is different from having sufficient information. I think we know so very little, and the notion that we have enough information is simply an illusion.
We largely know how we evolved, researchers have uncovered volumes of information on comparative mythology that trace the history and roots of contemporary religion…
Yes, but what is the major premise that you connect with these minor premises that lead to the conclusion of atheism? Do tell.
, most miracles (that we have a sufficient amount of information on) have been or can be debunked (reasonably speaking anyway)
Many “miracles” that you see on TV are likely not miracles, though I do not have dogma against miracles and so I’m not absolutely ruling them out. The Catholic Church itself is very slow to define a miracle as such. It was the miracles that occur within the Catholic Church that I knew about that drew me back to my faith.
The atheists with whom I dialogue are almost completely unaware of these miracles and the scientific tests that have been done on them.
Can you specify which miracles you have looked into? Most recently, Catholics celebrated the feast of St. Januarius. Are you familiar with this miracle. How about the incorruptible bodies of dozens of Saints? What about the Eucharistic miracles? What about the miracle at Fatima? How is science going to explain an event that is not repeatable and should never exist in the first place?
Turns out, the dogma against miracles is anti-scientific to its core.
Can you define what you would consider “sufficient amount of information” and what constitutes “reasonable speaking” about miracles?
, and we understand physics and the cosmos in ways our predecessors couldn’t even imagine.
Yes, and these discoveries are leading more and more of these same scientists to posit a creator.
There are many who still cling to religion,
Let us both endeavor to cling to the truth.
yet the case against religion is very persuasive
Persuasive, but not necessarily correct in its conclusions. I’ve seen many people be persuaded away from the truth.
(hopefully you don’t view men like Einstein or Hawking as men who are lost and hopelessly depressed).
I do not judge them as “lost”, since only God is their judge. I do not know their emotional states, so I have no data to go on there.
Just because you can’t imagine life without religion (and it seems depressing to you) doesn’t mean that’s objectively true.
You are correct that objective truth exists apart from my subjective response to it. But objectively speaking, the greatest good there is in an atheist’s universe is so far below the greatest good there is in a Catholic’s universe. So, from the perspective of a Catholic, atheism is quite dismal indeed.
You can’t examine the world through the lens of your own subjective thoughts and opinions. Objectively speaking most atheists are happy, well adjusted, intelligent, and productive people who obey the law and live very decent and upstanding lives.
We all examine the world through the lens of our own subjective thoughts and opinions. The second sentence assumes too much to be useful, imo. (How do you define happy, well-adjusted, intelligent, productive, the law, decent, and upstanding? Also, if Catholics are these things, does that point toward the truth of Catholicism?)
They are people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet who lead our economic progress.
…and fund the slaughter of our children.
They are our medical researchers who cure disease, scientists who make ground breaking discoveries in computer science, engineering, physics, and cosmology, etc.
In other words atheists and agnostics are vital to the prosperity that supports our way of life.
Catholics also contribute in this way. Is this a contest? Also, some atheists have killed millions of people, and occasionally Christians kill others as well. (I think the numbers greatly favor theists over atheists on this one…) Where is all this heading?
Would you really rather live in the European dark ages, where a theocratic church controlled your thoughts, where absurd superstitions were the social norm, self torture was commonplace, etc.? Or do you like this world shaped by the rationalist thinkers who laid the foundation for the constitution and Declaration of Independence (many of whom were non-Christians, and all of whom believed in secular governance)? Do you have respect for our leading founding fathers (virtually all of whom were deists, and not Christians, and all of whom obviously believed in secular governance)?
Anyone else want to handle this paragraph? (Sorry, but my office hours are beginning…) I’ll try to chime in later if I have the time.
).
