You’re missing my point. When I previously used the inquisitions as an example of horrific past behavior by religious organizations, you were quick to point out that it wasn’t a church action, but rather purely a government action (although I’m not sure there was much a difference in those days).
I pointed out the Roman inquisition because that was a church action, and indeed the inquisition was a continental phenomenon (not solely restricted to Spain or Italy). The Spanish inquisition was a unique case – yes (primarily carried out to expel the Moors). However, the Roman inquisition (I would more accurately term it the European Catholic Inquisition) was orchestrated by the church (although it had the cooperation of many European monarchs).
During that period Rome still had hegemony over Europe (although religious, it was no less effective than military occupation). The papacy was in effect a super-monarch, influencing events and the actions of regional monarchs throughout Europe. His persuasion was sometimes resisted, sure, yet any threat to Catholic power was dealt with harshly (usually through brutal execution, like burning dissenters alive or torturing them in a very systematic and horrific way).
You know what they say about excuses?
He was condemned by a Catholic Cardinal (Thomas Wolsey) initially, albeit, yes the English monarchy did get involved.
I certainly don’t deny the Protestants committed some horrible acts throughout history (although one can expect that a people, when freed from tyranny, will not treat their former oppressors very kindly, nevertheless that doesn’t excuse the murder of men like More).
Brunfels: 1488
Turner: 1508
Newton: 1643
Linnaeus: 1707
Mendel: 1822 (and a Catholic priest)
Lemaître: Early 20th century scientist (and I certainly acknowledge – great physicist). He was a decorated WWI veteran, who had a good Jesuit education as a child, and had committed to the priesthood very early in life (before studying physics). Nevertheless, Lemaître, who was the first to propose the big bang, did frame it as an initial “creation-like” event.
Before I get to Collins, I pointed out the birth dates of these men to give proper perspective. Sure, intellectuals who lived centuries ago were more likely to be theists, as compared to those who live today. In most cases the first rigorous academic study they did in their lives was theological. These men all live in the enormous shadow of religion, and we hadn’t developed far enough where there were credible competing theories, let alone hard evidence, debunking many of the stories contained in the bible. Therefore it’s fallacious (and frankly a subtle red herring) to use medieval or even 18th and 19th century intellectuals to bolster the “reasonableness” of religion.
Collins: the only “modern” example on your list, and someone we’re all too familiar with, who’s debate with Dawkins was remarkable (that is, in how thoroughly Dawkins made him look, quite frankly, like a fool). When pressed (that is, when he lacked a sensible response) he turned to explanations like god doesn’t need an explanation, or he would object that things outside of nature should be ruled out (and invoked platitudes with no substantive value, like the atheist view is an impoverished view of the kinds of questions human ask, like why are we here, or what happens when we die).
The fact is Collins has become an evangelical Christian even though we need only look to comparative mythology to
reasonably rule out the possibility that the fantastic events described by the New Testament happened.
Christianity and early mythological “mystery religions” (prominent in Hellenistic culture) had numerous parallels. Early Christian fathers like Irenaeus and Justin Martyr acknowledged these parallels, however, asserted these earlier religions had copied Christianity,
before Jesus was even born, as some sort of diabolical pre-cognitive mockery (an absurd argument by any reasonable standard). There’s a rich motif of life-death-rebirth gods, and even gods who needed to die and rise again to feed the community (predicating the Eucharist).
There are volumes of these sorts of rich parallels between Christianity and earlier mythology, but there are also similar parallels between Judaism and earlier Mesopotamian mythology.
Anyways, more “atheist garbage” for you to digest.
Perhaps according to Wikipedia (or official national figures), however, my information is taken from recent polling. About 65% of Japanese do not believe in a god. While they may identify with their ancestral religions (and even participate to a small degree) the poll is based on “faith” (not adherence). This is according to the Zuckerman poll on atheism. The most irreligious country on earth is apparently Sweden, with Norway and Japan following closely behind.
My argument was that deism has declined, and many of the more intellectual folks who may have previously (otherwise) turned to deism, are today generally atheists or agnostics. Here’s an excerpt from the Wiki article on deism:
Several factors contributed to a general decline in the popularity of deism, including:
• the rise, growth, and spread of naturalism and materialism, which were atheistic
• the writings of David Hume and Immanuel Kant (and later, Charles Darwin), which increased doubt about the first cause argument and the argument from design, turning many (though not all) potential deists towards atheism or panendeism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#The_decline_of_deism
