Sterilization followed by confession?

[LaSainte]

If a person disagrees fundamentally with Church teaching on contraception, to the point where after YEARS of prayer and study, honestly believes the Church to be in error on this, believes that God does not have a problem with contraception, etc., and decides to become sterilized, what happens?

If this person decided to get sterilized and then confess to the priest that although they are sorry to have gone against the Church, they do not believe that what they did was a grave sin and are happy with the outcome, and also confesses the sin of presumption (since they intended to be sterilized and confess it all along), would they be able to be absolved and start receiving communion again?

This is not a debate about contraception.

 

[joclucsylv]

I don’t think anyone who gets sterilized is ever happy with the outcome when they know the teaching of the church. Even after confession of sterilization, the guilt factor can still remain heavy on their soul.

 

[theistgal]

What happens if you die before you can get to confession?

 

[1ke]

If a person disagrees fundamentally with Church teaching on contraception, to the point where after YEARS of prayer and study, honestly believes the Church to be in error on this, believes that God does not have a problem with contraception, etc., and decides to become sterilized, what happens?

It is grave matter. The person has committed, with full knowledge and free will, a sin against the Sixth Commandment.

The Church cannot err in faith and morals. Such a person needs is to give assent of faith to all teachings, regardless of whether or not they understand them.

If this person decided to get sterilized and then confess to the priest that although they are sorry to have gone against the Church, they do not believe that what they did was a grave sin and are happy with the outcome, and also confesses the sin of presumption (since they intended to be sterilized and confess it all along), would they be able to be absolved and start receiving communion again?

One may not receive absolution without contrition.

 

[smichhertz]

If this person decided to get sterilized and then confess to the priest that although they are sorry to have gone against the Church, they do not believe that what they did was a grave sin and are happy with the outcome, and also confesses the sin of presumption (since they intended to be sterilized and confess it all along), would they be able to be absolved and start receiving communion again?

The problem is, then they’re probably not sorry. To be honest, the only way to show that they are truly sorry is to at least attempt to get it reversed.

I’m usually pretty liberal on what will count as sorry for confession, but if it is deliberately planned like that, I have trouble believing such a person’s confession would be valid. In other words, all future confessions of such a person would be invalid as they would be in a defiant state of sin. The only way to get out of it would be to make some external act of true repentance and purpose of amendment (such as attempting to have it reversed).

 

[Little_One0307]

What happens if you die before you can get to confession?

To God alone is known what happens. It depends on if you have mortal sins that you are unrepentant about.

The Church cleary states if one dies in a state of mortal sin, they go into Hell.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - emphasis mine

#1033

We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. ** To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. **This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

#1035

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

#1037

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

If you have venial sins that are not absolved then you go to purgatory or if you have not made satisfactory temporal punishment while on earth.

If you have no sins and no temporal punishment left, then you go to heaven.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

If a person disagrees fundamentally with Church teaching on contraception, to the point where after YEARS of prayer and study, honestly believes the Church to be in error on this, believes that God does not have a problem with contraception, etc., and decides to become sterilized, what happens?

If this person decided to get sterilized and then confess to the priest that although they are sorry to have gone against the Church, they do not believe that what they did was a grave sin and are happy with the outcome, and also confesses the sin of presumption (since they intended to be sterilized and confess it all along), would they be able to be absolved and start receiving communion again?

This is not a debate about contraception.

The Church is not in error. God keeps the Church from error. That is some flawed thinking. We can believe something honestly, but that does not change the objective reality of an object or a truth does it? I can honestly believe murdering someone becuase they looked at me the wrong way this morning is okay, but my honest and sincere belief does not do away with the fact that murder is wrong.

Sounds like the person is using justification and misusing the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. One must be truly sorry for what they did in order for the Sacrament to be effected. Reading your post, the person is not showing contrition.

They knew it was grave matter, for they knew it went against the Church. They chose to proceed nonetheless. All three conditions for mortal sin are present here. So no, not without true contrition or firm purpose of amendment they could not be absolved nor could they receive Holy Communion as long as they stayed in their obstinancy in a state of mortal sin.

God bless.

 

[LaSainte]

It is grave matter. The person has committed, with full knowledge and free will, a sin against the Sixth Commandment.

The Church cannot err in faith and morals. Such a person needs is to give assent of faith to all teachings, regardless of whether or not they understand them.

One may not receive absolution without contrition.

Yeah, here’s where the problem is. Unfortunately, this person will probably die in a state of mortal sin, not because contraception is a mortal sin, but because they would be denied absolution of any other mortal sins they committed for the rest of their lives. Nice.

 

[joclucsylv]

The problem is, then they’re probably not sorry. To be honest, the only way to show that they are truly sorry is to at least attempt to get it reversed.

I’m usually pretty liberal on what will count as sorry for confession, but if it is deliberately planned like that, I have trouble believing such a person’s confession would be valid. In other words, all future confessions of such a person would be invalid as they would be in a defiant state of sin. The only way to get out of it would be to make some external act of true repentance and purpose of amendment (such as attempting to have it reversed).

I don’t agree. My mom is the most devout Catholic I know. She used the rythym method as it was called back then. She had 5 pregnancies. She fell pregnant at age 42 and gave birth at age 43. She had a tubal after consulting a priest on the matter. He said she had done her duty. She still carries great guilt over the matter.

There are so many grey areas that people don’t see. Noone knows what is carried on the heart.

 

[joclucsylv]

Yeah, here’s where the problem is. Unfortunately, this person will probably die in a state of mortal sin, not because contraception is a mortal sin, but because they would be denied absolution of any other mortal sins they committed for the rest of their lives. Nice.

LaSainte, truly only God knows. We are humans. We have the beautiful teachings of the church to follow. We can sit here and speculate and we can quote the catechism, but truly only God knows.

 

[1ke]

Yeah, here’s where the problem is. Unfortunately, this person will probably die in a state of mortal sin, not because contraception is a mortal sin, but because they would be denied absolution of any other mortal sins they committed for the rest of their lives. Nice.

Contraception is a mortal sin.

 

[1ke]

She had a tubal after consulting a priest on the matter. He said she had done her duty. She still carries great guilt over the matter.

I’m sure her culpability is greatly lessened by the fact that she was given erroneous counsel by a person she trusted. A priest cannot give permission for someone to commit a mortal sin.

If she has been to confession, she is forgiven. I hope she can find peace.

 

[GloriousOrder]

LaSainte, your ideas appear to be informed by a self-actualising worldview that ignores divine truth. This idea you’re positing is not in conformity with the truth about human beings. Either the Church absolutely disseminates the truth about what is right and wrong by listening to God’s Word, or the Church absolutely fails to communicate the truth about what is right and wrong.

If the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ wrong in even one arena, the rest of Her teachings are suspect, and thus the Church itself. Were the Church wrong, it would simply not be the Church. The Saviour Himself said “he who hears you hears me” to the Apostles. Do you think the Apostles are extinct? Your attitude seems to say so. If ‘years of prayer and consideration’ have led you to a moral position contrary to the Church’s position, I dare say you have not prayed or considered long enough.

 

[joclucsylv]

LaSainte, your ideas appear to be informed by a self-actualising worldview that ignores divine truth. This idea you’re positing is not in conformity with the truth about human beings. Either the Church absolutely disseminates the truth about what is right and wrong by listening to God’s Word, or the Church absolutely fails to communicate the truth about what is right and wrong.

If the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ wrong in even one arena, the rest of Her teachings are suspect, and thus the Church itself. Were the Church wrong, it would simply not be the Church. The Saviour Himself said “he who hears you hears me” to the Apostles. Do you think the Apostles are extinct? Your attitude seems to say so. If ‘years of prayer and consideration’ have led you to a moral position contrary to the Church’s position, I dare say you have not prayed or considered long enough.

But the Church has erred. Didn’t the pope in 1999 ask forgiveness for it’s treatment of Jews, the Inquisition, and human right abuses. If it knows what is right and wrong why did the Church act in such an abusive way??

 

[KWR_1]

If a person disagrees fundamentally with Church teaching on contraception, to the point where after YEARS of prayer and study, honestly believes the Church to be in error on this, believes that God does not have a problem with contraception, etc., and decides to become sterilized, what happens?

If this person decided to get sterilized and then confess to the priest that although they are sorry to have gone against the Church, they do not believe that what they did was a grave sin and are happy with the outcome, and also confesses the sin of presumption (since they intended to be sterilized and confess it all along), would they be able to be absolved and start receiving communion again?

This is not a debate about contraception.

If you don’t agree with Catholic Church teaching then you should look for a new Church. Anglican/Episcopal Churches don’t have a problem with birth control.

 

[1ke]

But the Church has erred. Didn’t the pope in 1999 ask forgiveness for it’s treatment of Jews, the Inquisition, and human right abuses. If it knows what is right and wrong why did the Church act in such an abusive way??

The Church cannot err.

You are confusing the failings of individual people in the Church with the Church.

 

[runningdude]

The problem is, then they’re probably not sorry. To be honest, the only way to show that they are truly sorry is to at least attempt to get it reversed.

I’m usually pretty liberal on what will count as sorry for confession, but if it is deliberately planned like that, I have trouble believing such a person’s confession would be valid. In other words, all future confessions of such a person would be invalid as they would be in a defiant state of sin. The only way to get out of it would be to make some external act of true repentance and purpose of amendment (such as attempting to have it reversed).

The Church doesn’t require an attempt to “reverse” the procedure. The intent to contracept is the sin, and deliberate damage done to to the genitals is also the sin.

Surgery to correct the damage is not without inherent risk of further, possibly permanent damage. The Church does not mandate one voluntarily risk death or injury to escape sin. Contrition and absolution is enough.

That being said, the damage caused by sterilization is one of the temporal punishments caused by the sin. One has permanently forfeited the ability to have children and have perfectly open and fruitful relations with his or her spouse. Only the resurrection at the end of time will correct the damage, and even then scars may remain. Our Saviors glorified body bore the marks of His crucifixion on His hands and side.

Sin is sinful specifically because of its consequences of pain and suffering, on Earth, or Purgatory, or Hell.

 

[1ke]

If you don’t agree with Catholic Church teaching then you should look for a new Church. Anglican/Episcopal Churches don’t have a problem with birth control.

There is only one Church. Suggesting that a person leave the Church and join a group that does not have the fullness of truth is highly irresponsible and, frankly, grave matter.

And, God’s truth is immutable. Joining some other religous group under the guise of then being morally in the clear is a delusion.

 

[FCEGM]

The Church cannot err.

You are confusing the failings of individual people in the Church with the Church.

Yes; and that’s what the late Holy Father’s apology was - an apology for those in the Church whose failings and sins caused harm to others. He didn’t apologize for the Church itself since the Church cannot err.

 

[smichhertz]

I don’t agree. My mom is the most devout Catholic I know. She used the rythym method as it was called back then. She had 5 pregnancies. She fell pregnant at age 42 and gave birth at age 43. She had a tubal after consulting a priest on the matter. He said she had done her duty. She still carries great guilt over the matter.

There are so many grey areas that people don’t see. Noone knows what is carried on the heart.

Like 1ke said, since she was incorrectly counseled by a priest, her culpability is significantly reduced. It may have not been a mortal sin in her case, but it was still grave matter. She should take it to confession to be sure, but in that case I’m sure she’d be forgiven. I will be sure to say a prayer for you mother.

That’s an entirely different from the scenario in the OP.