Sterilization for health reasons

[Rence]

I am married to a Catholic man, and attend Mass with him and my two children on a regular basis. I have only felt at home in this Church.

My question I have one step son, and my biological daughter. Following the birth of my daughter, I suffered from postpartum depression, and postpartum psychosis. I became very suicidal, and I had full intentions of it for about a year and a half. I was finally diagnosed with bipolar disorder. It has taken 2 1/2 years to find the right medication balance, and we are still having to tweak it. These medscould have complucated another pregnancy, and I don’t believe I would have lived following another baby. I had a tubal lugation, and then complications from that forced me to have another surgery to fix it and it unfortunatly has voided any chances of further pregnancy.

Am I right that this was a mortal sin, or would this be acceptable procedure to preseve my life for my family? I don’t believe I would live through another one. My husband was not sure of this either.

Seriously, you need to speak to your priest or spiritual advisor about this. In an interview with (when he was) Cardinal Ratzinger, this is part of what he said in an interview:

At this point, Seewald pressed him further. “The question remains whether you can reproach someone, say, a couple who already have several children, for not having a positive attitude toward children.” And Ratzinger replied: “No, of course, and that shouldn’t happen, either.” Then Seewald again: “But must these people nevertheless have the idea that they are living some sort of sin if they …” And Ratzinger interrupts:

I would say that those are questions that ought to be discussed with one’s spiritual director, with one’s priest, because they can’t be projected into the abstract.

The rest of the article is here:
douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/condoms-catholicism-and-casuistry/

I think even the then-Cardinal knew the world didn’t come in black and white, but many shades of gray. If we were meant to only follow a rule book, without any regard to the variances life brings, we wouldn’t need spiritual advisors or priests. We’d just go by the book. IMOHO the Church should be all about loving God, not only about following a 900+ page rule book. That’s just legalism.

 

[twoangels]

It is a grave offense. The way I see it, knowing if you are actually in a state of mortal sin is not straight forward and I don’t think it has to be. My only question is “Can I go up to communion?” Beyond that, I focus on going to confession for healing and forgiveness. I don’t go because I want to win God’s love for me, because I know that God loves me. I go for the grace. I go for the healing. I go to allow God to do His work in me.

I think the only value in knowing whether a sin is mortal or venial, is simply knowing objectively that there is a difference. It is completely possible for baptized individuals to reject God and cut themselves off. There is also the fact that sin is inevitable and that there is sin that wounds our relationship but doesn’t destroy it. This both affirms our call to holiness while taking the pressure to try to become sinless by our own merit. We can only be made holy. We cannot will ourselves to be holy.

My advise thus is to go to confession and not worry about it. The challenge comes when you find yourself in morally complicated waters in the future. You have already made your decision with this sin. I am guessing that at the time you didn’t seek spiritual council and struggled with it because following the letter of the law seemed to violate the purpose of the law. That doesn’t change whether an action is morally justified. It does mean that it can take a lot of effort discerning where the right path is. Its then that you should seek spiritual direction from a reliable priest, and you should pray for God to enlighten your path for you.

I would recommend in the confessional, mentioning the circumstances that make it difficult for you to have perfect contrition especially since you don’t know what could have possibly done different in that situation. Imperfect contrition is the only thing necessary for a valid confession. We should try at perfect contrition, but sometimes its just a matter of the desire to have found a way to obey God while still not knowing what that would have looked like.

 

[twoangels]

Hello,

Well, anytime i read something like this i become very sad…it seems like some people don´t understand the heavy problems going with diseases like this for a relationship.This should not sound angry, i just want to write down some things flowing in my mind…

1.contraceptive methods or sterilization used by a healthy person ist the one case, another is the situation in wich exists a real an high danger for the mother and the marriage.

2.I don´t know if many people have experience with psychosis in general or postpartum psychosis, but it is something really dangerous and destroying.The sister of a friend got psychotic after her daughter was born, the next 2 years she passes in a clinic an she never gets full healthy again,she had to give away her daughter, her husband can´t bear childcare and working all day.marriage suffers because of this situation.
Another point is the possible genetic disposition for the children in future- I know this from my own family, and yes, this is a grave trouble.In some cases there is a high rist for mother AND child, and I don´t know how I could let my children out in the world with this.

3.abstinence…do you really think a marriage will be well after trouble, disease AND abstinence? the gravest problem with disease is that it seperates the people, being ill makes lonely.Its a very difficult tast to defend the sorrows going along with this as a couple, also in a good and loving relationship.I cant understand how you can call a couple like this for abstinece in marriage, this means physical AND mental seperation.
we don´t talk about sterilization as a “question of lust”, it is to protect the health of the mother and the marriage…

1. NFP. well…NFP is always described with a pearl index of apr. 9. this means no security, but many fear on both sides if the consequences of a pregnancy are as grave as described.

---

Is there no possibility within the teaching of the church for couples with the problem of disease including a high risk for mother and child?we talk from a mortal risk for them, tiflemetry said in her post she got suicidal…sex without the possibility of getting pregnant is not permitted in general, for example after menopause and in case of infertility.I would like to get facts for other cases of " sex in situation without pregnance possibility".

Last, I wish you, tiflemetry, the best for you and your family and a healthy future. my heart is with you!

I agree, Alice. Demeaning that situations can get very morally complicated and treating people in these situations as its the same moral situation for a healthy couple is insulting. It also insults the value of sex in marriage. It advocates obeying the letter of the law without truly integrating it into your life. Its a rule, you follow it and if it ruins your marriage, hurts your children, causes you great psychological damage, so be it. Afterall, you have to obey the law, don’t you?

Its not that straight forward! We are not simply called to sabotosh our lives for the sake of the law. We are called to holiness, and there are morally challenging situations where avoiding a grave sin means practicing some measure of heroic virtue. It takes grace. It takes council. It takes sympathy. No one is called to just obey rules. As CS Lewis said, the more you obey your conscience, the more your conscience will demand of you. If we treat it like “Just pay your taxes and starve yourself” we’re missing the point.

 

[etmom]

I agree, Alice. Demeaning that situations can get very morally complicated and treating people in these situations as its the same moral situation for a healthy couple is insulting. It also insults the value of sex in marriage. It advocates obeying the letter of the law without truly integrating it into your life. Its a rule, you follow it and if it ruins your marriage, hurts your children, causes you great psychological damage, so be it. Afterall, you have to obey the law, don’t you?

Its not that straight forward! We are not simply called to sabotosh our lives for the sake of the law. We are called to holiness, and there are morally challenging situations where avoiding a grave sin means practicing some measure of heroic virtue. It takes grace. It takes council. It takes sympathy. No one is called to just obey rules. As CS Lewis said, the more you obey your conscience, the more your conscience will demand of you. If we treat it like “Just pay your taxes and starve yourself” we’re missing the point.

That is not the results for many of us - that’s an unfair portrayal. through struggle prayer, confession and the gift of grace, we follow the “rule” and the result IS growing in holiness, strengthening as a couple, blessings and graces that we could not have predicted before starting down what looked to be an impossible path.

 

[twoangels]

That is not the results for many of us - that’s an unfair portrayal. through struggle prayer, confession and the gift of grace, we follow the “rule” and the result IS growing in holiness, strengthening as a couple, blessings and graces that we could not have predicted before starting down what looked to be an impossible path.

We all have a tendency to obsess about certain sins while ignoring others. There are situations where people can tell you over and over that you just need to obey this rule about contraceptives as simply more important than other sins. Thus in trying to follow it, you choose seemingly the lesser of two evils. Granted, your conscience may tell you that the evil you are choosing seems to be more grave than the rule about contraceptives.

Integration comes in prayerfull discerning all the moral criteria of a given situation, not just obsessing about sexual sins.

My mom struggled with NFP and had very dangerous pregnancies. My parents had to abstain for most of the pregnancy and my Mom was mostly bed ridden. After going through this, my parents had two NFP failures within two years that ended in miscarriage. She nearly bleed to death during one of the miscarriages. She then had another NFP failure but this time carried the pregnancy to term with lots of bed rest and again no sexual activity. My mom was absolutely forbidden to get pregnant again. They were faithful to NFP for several years and abstained for very long periods of time. My parents grew distant from each other. Dad suffered with intense feelings of rejection from my mom.

I used to really condemn my Dad for getting a vesectomy. The desire to actually have some sex life with your spouse without putting her on her deathbed is not motivated out of lust! This is where integration is necessary, where you have to take your entire situation to prayer and confess to God that you want to obey but don’t know how. My parents spent years following the letter of the law and it hurt their marriage and put my mother’s life at risk more than once.

My point is not to say it can be morally rationalized. My point is that you have to have sympathy and recognize that most talks about why contraceptives are sinful simply do not explain why a couple would be morally required to remove sex completely from their married lives or put their wives life at risk.

My point is merely that there are gray situations where figuring out how to respect all moral principals and not just chastity takes a lot of prayerful discernment. People shouldn’t just be criticized and condemned for struggling with this.

 

[choose_to_love]

@alice: you might want to google Petra Frank-Herrman, who I think is based in a German university.

 

[SurlyMermaid]

To the OP,

I don’t have any advice. What a rough situation, my sister! I’ll keep you in prayers. :hug1:

 

[ryecroft]

We all have a tendency to obsess about certain sins while ignoring others. There are situations where people can tell you over and over that you just need to obey this rule about contraceptives as simply more important than other sins. Thus in trying to follow it, you choose seemingly the lesser of two evils. Granted, your conscience may tell you that the evil you are choosing seems to be more grave than the rule about contraceptives.

Integration comes in prayerfull discerning all the moral criteria of a given situation, not just obsessing about sexual sins.

My mom struggled with NFP and had very dangerous pregnancies. My parents had to abstain for most of the pregnancy and my Mom was mostly bed ridden. After going through this, my parents had two NFP failures within two years that ended in miscarriage. She nearly bleed to death during one of the miscarriages. She then had another NFP failure but this time carried the pregnancy to term with lots of bed rest and again no sexual activity. My mom was absolutely forbidden to get pregnant again. They were faithful to NFP for several years and abstained for very long periods of time. My parents grew distant from each other. Dad suffered with intense feelings of rejection from my mom.

I used to really condemn my Dad for getting a vesectomy. The desire to actually have some sex life with your spouse without putting her on her deathbed is not motivated out of lust! This is where integration is necessary, where you have to take your entire situation to prayer and confess to God that you want to obey but don’t know how. My parents spent years following the letter of the law and it hurt their marriage and put my mother’s life at risk more than once.

My point is not to say it can be morally rationalized. My point is that you have to have sympathy and recognize that most talks about why contraceptives are sinful simply do not explain why a couple would be morally required to remove sex completely from their married lives or put their wives life at risk.

My point is merely that there are gray situations where figuring out how to respect all moral principals and not just chastity takes a lot of prayerful discernment. People shouldn’t just be criticized and condemned for struggling with this.

Hey there - I don’t generally go into full agreement with you, but I surely do now. I’m so sorry your family had to deal with this situation! I have a friend who was in a similar situation to your mom’s - another pregnancy could likely have to have a hysterectomy or possibly kill her (she had two NFP pregnancies too)- they were too scared to have sex and they were growing apart. Not just from lack of sex - from lack of closeness and intimacy and probably feelings of rejection. So after trying with NFP for a very long time and then a time of almost no sex (you should have heard the phone calls where she was so scared she might have gotten pregnant - she was scared to death!) - the husband got a vasectomy. Their Priest did understand the circumstances but I don’t know if even if he hadn’t that they wouldn’t have gone ahead. I hope this lady is able to talk to a compassionate priest. I just can’t imagine a husband standing over a dead wife after following the letter of the law and saying - ‘I can’t believe she’s gone - but at least we followed the letter of the law…’ I just don’t see it happening.
God Bless
Rye

 

[Trishie]

Lawful Therapeutic Means
15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from–provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
Encyclicle Letter HUMANAE VITAE of the Supreme Pontiff PAUL VI

However how this relates in your situation should be discussed with your priest.

 

[Rita77]

We all have a tendency to obsess about certain sins while ignoring others. There are situations where people can tell you over and over that you just need to obey this rule about contraceptives as simply more important than other sins. Thus in trying to follow it, you choose seemingly the lesser of two evils. Granted, your conscience may tell you that the evil you are choosing seems to be more grave than the rule about contraceptives.

Integration comes in prayerfull discerning all the moral criteria of a given situation, not just obsessing about sexual sins.

My mom struggled with NFP and had very dangerous pregnancies. My parents had to abstain for most of the pregnancy and my Mom was mostly bed ridden. After going through this, my parents had two NFP failures within two years that ended in miscarriage. She nearly bleed to death during one of the miscarriages. She then had another NFP failure but this time carried the pregnancy to term with lots of bed rest and again no sexual activity. My mom was absolutely forbidden to get pregnant again. They were faithful to NFP for several years and abstained for very long periods of time. My parents grew distant from each other. Dad suffered with intense feelings of rejection from my mom.

I used to really condemn my Dad for getting a vesectomy. The desire to actually have some sex life with your spouse without putting her on her deathbed is not motivated out of lust! This is where integration is necessary, where you have to take your entire situation to prayer and confess to God that you want to obey but don’t know how. My parents spent years following the letter of the law and it hurt their marriage and put my mother’s life at risk more than once.

My point is not to say it can be morally rationalized. My point is that you have to have sympathy and recognize that most talks about why contraceptives are sinful simply do not explain why a couple would be morally required to remove sex completely from their married lives or put their wives life at risk.

My point is merely that there are gray situations where figuring out how to respect all moral principals and not just chastity takes a lot of prayerful discernment. People shouldn’t just be criticized and condemned for struggling with this.

you had me convinced… I’m not going to tell my perosnal story but its as serious as your partents and make nfp very difficult to chart sometimes. I asked my priest and he said its never ok to get sterilizatzed for sole purpose of infertility.

Lawful Therapeutic Means
15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from–provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
Encyclicle Letter HUMANAE VITAE of the Supreme Pontiff PAUL VI

However how this relates in your situation should be discussed with your priest.

Trishie is right thats what my priest said. really we shouldn’t advice people on such serious moral issues we should instead tell others to talk to a priest.

 

[Winter_Warlock]

Tiflemetry,

I my opinion is talk to your Priest, NO ONE has the right to tell you that you have committed a mortal sin. We are told by Jesus not to judge regardless what some may think.

I have to stop reading some of these post at times just because of the self-righteous attitude some posters have, but I did read alice24’s post and she has some good points and thoughts as well as constructive advice and support not this “yes you could die if A B or C happened, but you have to take that chance or never experience a physical expression of your spiritual or emotional love with your spouse”. It is so easy for someone to hide behind a keyboard and tell someone else how to live when they have no experience with the subject matter.

Sorry if I come across as angry, but when people advice someone to either live a life of misery (for the lack of a better word) or take the chance or being seriously injured to killed then yes I will get angry and I will express it.

But anger aside, Tiflemetry I pray that God grants you peace and happiness, you truly deserve it. And again discuss this with your Priest, he will have a better understanding.

May God bless and keep you and your family.

Winter

 

[etmom]

Tiflemetry,

It is so easy for someone to hide behind a keyboard and tell someone else how to live when they have no experience with the subject matter.

Sorry if I come across as angry, but when people advice someone to either live a life of misery (for the lack of a better word) or take the chance or being seriously injured to killed then yes I will get angry and I will express it.

SOme of us have life or death reasons to avoid pregnancy, and DO NOT commmit ourselves to a “life of misery” or a marriage devoid of intimacy. I DO have personal experience with this, it is not a choice between “use NFP and die” or “never experience sexual intimacy with your spouse” ever again.

 

[Rita77]

Tiflemetry,

I my opinion is talk to your Priest, NO ONE has the right to tell you that you have committed a mortal sin. We are told by Jesus not to judge regardless what some may think.

I have to stop reading some of these post at times just because of the self-righteous attitude some posters have, but I did read alice24’s post and she has some good points and thoughts as well as constructive advice and support not this “yes you could die if A B or C happened, but you have to take that chance or never experience a physical expression of your spiritual or emotional love with your spouse”. It is so easy for someone to hide behind a keyboard and tell someone else how to live when they have no experience with the subject matter.

Sorry if I come across as angry, but when people advice someone to either live a life of misery (for the lack of a better word) or take the chance or being seriously injured to killed then yes I will get angry and I will express it.

But anger aside, Tiflemetry I pray that God grants you peace and happiness, you truly deserve it. And again discuss this with your Priest, he will have a better understanding.

May God bless and keep you and your family.

Winter

you relize your hiding behind a computer giving a easy opinion on the matter. this is a very serious moral and health issues. this is Catholic Answers and on here you will get many opinions mostly Catholic. someone post a thread on CAF and then other people discuss it thats the whole point of the forum, Catholic Answers to get a Catholic opinion, whether it makes you angry or not. I agree that on this matter the only good answer is to advice someone to talk to their priest. I also like the OP and etmom have similar personal serious health reason to avoid pregancy for the rest of my fertile years. I have talked two different preist about it. we tried to give hope to the op and others in similar situations reading this that it is posible to trust God, Love and be intimate with your spouse and avoid pregnancy using nfp. I live it every day. yes that means I trust God and NFP with my life!!! thats my Catholic opinion wheather you like or not.

 

[Winter_Warlock]

Etmom,

I am very happy that you have been blessed and have worked things out in a way that is good / faithful for you.

Rita77,

I understand that there are many opinions as everyone has their own. My comment is that the OP should talk to a Priest as unlike Etmom, I doubt that most of the posts telling the OP what she should do have experience in this situation. And even then the OP and Etmom’s conditions may be different types. I also respect the way that you choose to live. Trusting in God is all any of us can do as for the any other choices you make that is your choice and for that I have nothing but respect.
It is not the way someone lives their life that gets me angry with the boards at times, but the almost cruel way that some respond to someone going through a tough situation. I understand that I also am behind a computer but I have no advice expect to talk to a Priest. And I do get angry when someone posts asking for advice or support and they receive nothing but harsh comments (even though that may be rare) – and there are many that do offer support and good advice. And I understand that NFP can be very effective but what happens if it does not work? That seems to lead down a road that the OP would not want to go.

Winter

 

[tiflemetry]

Thank you all for your open advice, in both ways it is presented. My husband and I grow apart even in weeks when we cannot have intercourse because of irregular monthly cycles. In meeting with my gyno, pregnancy is not 100% avoidable with tubal ligation, but it largely decreases the risk. A few weeks ago, I had all the symptoms I had in the first trimester with my daughter. I panicked, as did my husband. In a sense I knew I was sentenced to death or misery, and the misery of my family. And, to those who don’t agree, to my relief, I was not pregnant.

I AM open to life, but just not in the traditional way. My husband and I have already been talking about adoption.

 

[Rita77]

Etmom,

I am very happy that you have been blessed and have worked things out in a way that is good / faithful for you.

Rita77,

I understand that there are many opinions as everyone has their own. My comment is that the OP should talk to a Priest as unlike Etmom, I doubt that most of the posts telling the OP what she should do have experience in this situation. And even then the OP and Etmom’s conditions may be different types. I also respect the way that you choose to live. Trusting in God is all any of us can do as for the any other choices you make that is your choice and for that I have nothing but respect.
It is not the way someone lives their life that gets me angry with the boards at times, but the almost cruel way that some respond to someone going through a tough situation. I understand that I also am behind a computer but I have no advice expect to talk to a Priest. And I do get angry when someone posts asking for advice or support and they receive nothing but harsh comments (even though that may be rare) – and there are many that do offer support and good advice. And I understand that NFP can be very effective but what happens if it does not work? That seems to lead down a road that the OP would not want to go.

Winter

you just can’t let yourself get angry about it. its a public internet forum about getting Catholic answers and not all answers are Catholic. we aren’t experts but this is where we go to discuss Catholic teachings thats the whole point of the forum. the op post it on a public internet forum asking for Catholic advice the op must have wanted public advice (good or bad).YES I agree the only advice thats was good for her was to tell her to talk to her priest!!! you keep implying more of opinion then needed as did some other posters. so if someone disagrees with you they shouldn’t post:shrug:

 

[Winter_Warlock]

rita

Let’s not hijack the Ops post, but if you want to continue this “discussion” then send me a PM. But let’s look at your first response to me, when I said that I get angry with some post people do that are cruel or harsh in refinance to what they were telling the OP. That the posters should have more sympathy and be supportive. Yet you take it as if it an attack against you

– “I live it every day. yes that means I trust God and NFP with my life!!! thats my Catholic opinion wheather you like or not.” –

I think that it is great that you live your life every day trusting in God, we all should. But why you had to take my response to be supportive as an attack? Maybe you should get off your high-horse and listen / read how scared the OP is with this and have some compassion. As you can tell how scared she and her husband are by her last post. The post she did before you had your rant. As I made NO reference to anyone not trusting in God.

As for your follow up, that - “if someone disagrees with you they shouldn’t post” how did you come to that conclusion? Are you so wise and knowledgeable that you know what someone is thinking or meaning? The way we expand our philosophical view point is to listen and try to understand someone else’s view. But I take it that if someone does not share your view point then they are not as wise or worthy of your opinion? The posts that are cruel or hateful are the ones that may need to be reviewed, not the ones that differ from my view or even your view as your opinion is just as valuable. There are a lot of great posts here for support / inspiration / and stories of how God has blessed us All in so many ways, but there is also a lot of arrogance, holier-than-thou attitudes, and just my-opinion-is-right posts also.

Again if you want to continue these discussions send a PM or start a new post. As I will not discuss this anymore in Tiflemetry’s post

Tiflemetry,

Sorry that your post has turned to this, but I am glad that you are SAFE. Again may God continue to Bless and keep you and your husband.

Winter

 

[anruari]

Tiflemetry,

I would add my voice to the others offering your loving support in this difficult issue.

You do need to discuss this matter with your priest.
Remember whatever sin you have comitted in the past - if you place it at the foot of th cross in an act of genuine contrition (i.e. being truly sorry for having caused harm to others and offence to God) then there is nothing - no sin - beyond the ability of God to Forgive.
The Lord has Already sacrificed His Son on the cross in total expiation for our sins. The price has been paid! Alleluia!

Any act you have comitted in the past needs to be placed at His feet at the Foot of the Cross. Talking these things through with your Priest in the Sacrament of Penance is normally the best way of doing this.

If you are considering future or current actions which might have potentially sinful connotations: people on here can help you to inform your conscience, but again it is normally best to discuss major decisions with your Priest and contemplate them in Prayer.

The only act guaranteed to land you in Hell, is to pridefully or despairingly reject the Lords forgiveness, to reject his teachings (building up a store of mortal or venial sins makes us more likely to committ this final act when the push comes to the shove).
As you are on here asking these questions it is obvious that you are not committing that deadly sin now, but want to be at peace with the Lord. That is what is most important.

 

[LCN]

Alice24, I support the ideas you state here. I have had postpartum psychosis and I am wrestling with a similar situation myself. The thing that sticks with me, the thing that makes it hard to say “Oh, NFP and everything will be fine, etc.” is that my life really is threatened each and every time I have a baby. It is not “baby blues” nor even depression. You leave yourself. You become a stranger to yourself. You lose your hold on reality and your mind goes to very dark places. You do not have the control to “snap out of it.” It is so devastating that I feel like I am clear-cut – no self, no mind, sometimes I even feel like a stranger to my own body: I look in the mirror and hardly recognize the face. And you are caring for an infant at the same time. It is the darkest place I have ever been. It eventually goes away after 6-12 months, but in those months you lose touch with your loved ones and do not properly bond with your baby. Rebuliding the self after that experience – for me, twice (2 babies) – is a monumental and all-consuming task. To me, it is as dangerous as if I had a uterus that would burst if I got pregnant. Coldly suggesting abstinence and NFP and dusting off one’s perfect Catholic hands of the whole situation does not offer succor or comfort or compassion to the woman asking this question. In the New Testament Jesus often spoke against the Pharisees who saw the letter of the law as being more important than love for one another. Could this be what is happening here?

Hello,

Well, anytime i read something like this i become very sad…it seems like some people don´t understand the heavy problems going with diseases like this for a relationship.This should not sound angry, i just want to write down some things flowing in my mind…

1.contraceptive methods or sterilization used by a healthy person ist the one case, another is the situation in wich exists a real an high danger for the mother and the marriage.

2.I don´t know if many people have experience with psychosis in general or postpartum psychosis, but it is something really dangerous and destroying.The sister of a friend got psychotic after her daughter was born, the next 2 years she passes in a clinic an she never gets full healthy again,she had to give away her daughter, her husband can´t bear childcare and working all day.marriage suffers because of this situation.
Another point is the possible genetic disposition for the children in future- I know this from my own family, and yes, this is a grave trouble.In some cases there is a high rist for mother AND child, and I don´t know how I could let my children out in the world with this.

3.abstinence…do you really think a marriage will be well after trouble, disease AND abstinence? the gravest problem with disease is that it seperates the people, being ill makes lonely.Its a very difficult tast to defend the sorrows going along with this as a couple, also in a good and loving relationship.I cant understand how you can call a couple like this for abstinece in marriage, this means physical AND mental seperation.
we don´t talk about sterilization as a “question of lust”, it is to protect the health of the mother and the marriage…

1. NFP. well…NFP is always described with a pearl index of apr. 9. this means no security, but many fear on both sides if the consequences of a pregnancy are as grave as described.

---

Is there no possibility within the teaching of the church for couples with the problem of disease including a high risk for mother and child?we talk from a mortal risk for them, tiflemetry said in her post she got suicidal…sex without the possibility of getting pregnant is not permitted in general, for example after menopause and in case of infertility.I would like to get facts for other cases of " sex in situation without pregnance possibility".

Last, I wish you, tiflemetry, the best for you and your family and a healthy future. my heart is with you!

 

[LCN]

Tiflemetry, I have so much sympathy for your situation. It is difficult, having been raised Catholic and voluntarily lived conservative by-the-book Catholicism for many years, facing a situation in which the rules and guidelines we have been lovingly taught and joyfully accepted no longer really work. In my own very personal experience, I believe that “women’s concerns” like postpartum depression and psychosis are too often swept under the rug with the admonishment to “trust God more.” It seems like if it has to do with lady-parts, it isn’t a real health concern. Being suicidal is hazardous to one’s health. And selfhood really does matter – even within faith, even within true belief in God, even within Catholicism and full obedience to the Magisterium. Again, my own opinion here, but in my experience as a married Catholic woman, we are often treated as “a womb and a soul,” and not much else. But there is so much more to me than that.

I am praying for peace for you.

Thank you all for your open advice, in both ways it is presented. My husband and I grow apart even in weeks when we cannot have intercourse because of irregular monthly cycles. In meeting with my gyno, pregnancy is not 100% avoidable with tubal ligation, but it largely decreases the risk. A few weeks ago, I had all the symptoms I had in the first trimester with my daughter. I panicked, as did my husband. In a sense I knew I was sentenced to death or misery, and the misery of my family. And, to those who don’t agree, to my relief, I was not pregnant.

I AM open to life, but just not in the traditional way. My husband and I have already been talking about adoption.