Sterilization Hypothetical

[Bluegoat]

Well our kids are spaced about 2-3 years apart so it has been “working” for us. At least better than any of the other couples I know who use NFP. The problem is that my wife wants something that work works not NFP kind of “working” after our 4th child. My wife is holding the only cervix that we have and she isn’t willing anymore, so the only option is abstinence or I accept she is going to use ABC.

The church is clear that you cannot condone your spouse using birth control. You do not need to cut off marital relations if she insists, but you can’t be involved with their use, and you need to let her know that you have a problem with it.

But abstinence is perfectly acceptable, but your wife would really have to agree I think. Even in this situation, I don’t think the Church would condone you making a unilateral decision.

 

[newbetx]

Imagine you have 2 rabbits in a finite area like a box. This box has in it everything that these rabbits need to survive and reproduce. Rabbits don’t have the conscious ability to control how much or little they breed. Imagine they were left to do their thing for 2 years. when you go to check on your box of rabbits in 2 years you see that they are all dead, piles of rabbits suffocated because they wouldn’t stop breeding. 4 kids is more than your share bro, our Earth is this box and if everyone bred like you we would all be dead in a few generations from lack of resources. So in 1 hand you have birth control and the other you are contributing to the problem of overpopulation that will eventually kill us all. Unlike the rabbits you have the conscious ability to use birth control otherwise your just gonna be another breeder filling up the box.

These are the same arguments that they use to justify abortion, euthenasia and genocide.

Children are NOT rationable. The over population thing is a myth. We have more places to live and the ability to make more food than we need. All that is done is argue that a better standard of living is deserved by the living over the elderly and the unborn. It’s just selfish justification.

This is an example of a bad analogy with a incorrect conclusion. We don’t live in a closed environment. Something like this did happen on an island in the Pacific… The people over time, due to limited food resources, got smaller. Things eventually evened out and got balanced. Can you imagine if we only ate what we needed? Less obesity and more ability to feed the poor and other countries. Imagine that?

 

[newbetx]

Well our kids are spaced about 2-3 years apart so it has been “working” for us. At least better than any of the other couples I know who use NFP. The problem is that my wife wants something that work works not NFP kind of “working” after our 4th child. My wife is holding the only cervix that we have and she isn’t willing anymore, so the only option is abstinence or I accept she is going to use ABC.

I feel sorry for you two. And, to tell you the truth, I know how you two feel.

And I feel sorry for how she will feel in a few years. BTDT. ABC isn’t the promise that’s it’s cracked up to be.

If priests are telling you to sin as a “least of two evils” scenario, I’m sorry for that too.

If it were me. I’d consider pointing out that no other method is 100%. And that sterilization is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Pray for guidance and God’s mercy in this trial. After a while He should let you know what you need to do.

 

[Tosk]

Um, if your wife doesn’t actually repent of having been sterilized, it is irrelevant if she goes and confesses it. In fact, she will then be guilty of the original offense and of lying in confession by having said she was sorry when she wasn’t. I’m not sure why that is better.

Of course she would be repentant but the only motivation would be that she doesn’t want God to toast her for all eternity. Jesus used fear of hell a whole lot to motivate people to stay away from sin and the church recognizes that fear is a good enough motivation for remission of sins.

I don’t see why you have to drum up a bunch of emotions and regret to receive absolution. You have attrition and a firm intent to sin no more. seems like that would be enough.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I don’t see why you have to drum up a bunch of emotions and regret to receive absolution. You have attrition and a firm intent to sin no more. seems like that would be enough.

But a firm intent to sin no more is inconsistent with what you’re describing. Here’s why:

If she were put in the same situation again, she would do the same thing. Why? The fact that she’s willing to do it now is proof of that. How can it be an intent to sin no more if you’re willing to sin to get there?

God is not a gatekeeper. He doesn’t care about your actions. He could negate your actions if He wanted to! He cares about your heart.

I don’t think the problem you’re describing has to do with contraception. It is all about legalism. But God is not a legalist, and for your own sake you need to come to terms with that.

 

[Bluegoat]

Of course she would be repentant but the only motivation would be that she doesn’t want God to toast her for all eternity. Jesus used fear of hell a whole lot to motivate people to stay away from sin and the church recognizes that fear is a good enough motivation for remission of sins.

I don’t see why you have to drum up a bunch of emotions and regret to receive absolution. You have attrition and a firm intent to sin no more. seems like that would be enough.

No, she wouldn’t be, and it has nothing to do with emotion.

Yes, certainly a person can see that an action was wrong, but not feel badly, and so repent. Or even not see, but accept the authority of the Church.

But to repent means you have turned away from that action. A good litmus test is to say - would I do it again tomorrow, or right now? Do I wish I had not done it? If the answer is yes to the first and no to the second, then it isn’t repentance. In this case, it seems quite clear that she wouldn’t wish she hadn’t done it, and if it were somehow reversed, she would still carry on with her original intention. The only reason she would fall under “sin no more” is because the act is a one time thing - she would still be mentally have the intent to prevent conception artificially.

Of course, she might really repent later, emotionally or not. In which case she would wish she had never done it.

 

[JaneGrey]

Imagine you have 2 rabbits in a finite area like a box. This box has in it everything that these rabbits need to survive and reproduce. Rabbits don’t have the conscious ability to control how much or little they breed. Imagine they were left to do their thing for 2 years. when you go to check on your box of rabbits in 2 years you see that they are all dead, piles of rabbits suffocated because they wouldn’t stop breeding. 4 kids is more than your share bro, our Earth is this box and if everyone bred like you we would all be dead in a few generations from lack of resources. So in 1 hand you have birth control and the other you are contributing to the problem of overpopulation that will eventually kill us all. Unlike the rabbits you have the conscious ability to use birth control otherwise your just gonna be another breeder filling up the box.

I love your post! So true so true…it is a myth that overpopulation is a myth

 

[Seatuck]

Of course she would be repentant but the only motivation would be that she doesn’t want God to toast her for all eternity. Jesus used fear of hell a whole lot to motivate people to stay away from sin and the church recognizes that fear is a good enough motivation for remission of sins.

I don’t see why you have to drum up a bunch of emotions and regret to receive absolution. You have attrition and a firm intent to sin no more. seems like that would be enough.

But what about the sin of presumption? She knows it’s wrong and will undertake the sin anyway with the idea that God will forgive her after the fact. That’s a problem. It doesn’t have a lot to do with drumming up emotions after the fact. I’m sure most of us are understanding that this is a difficult situation for you both filled with emotions.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum4&recnu=1&number=442714

 

[Tosk]

But what about the sin of presumption? She knows it’s wrong and will undertake the sin anyway with the idea that God will forgive her after the fact. That’s a problem. It doesn’t have a lot to do with drumming up emotions after the fact. I’m sure most of us are understanding that this is a difficult situation for you both filled with emotions.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum4&recnu=1&number=442714

Can’t you just confess the sin of presumption? Or would that be really bad because you are adding the sin of presumption on top of the sin of presumption? And I wouldn’t tell her about going to confession so I guess the sin of presumption would be only on my part. I would just be trying to steer her away from the pill and towards something else as the lesser of two evils.

The thing I don’t see is, using ABC and putting yourself in the constant state of mortal sin for 15 years has got to be more risky than just getting the sin over with in one fell swoop. Even if it takes you 1 year to truly feel sorry for what you have done it has got to be better than carrying on for 15 or so years.

 

[Seatuck]

Can’t you just confess the sin of presumption? Or would that be really bad because you are adding the sin of presumption on top of the sin of presumption? And I wouldn’t tell her about going to confession so I guess the sin of presumption would be only on my part. I would just be trying to steer her away from the pill and towards something else as the lesser of two evils.

The thing I don’t see is, using ABC and putting yourself in the constant state of mortal sin for 15 years has got to be more risky than just getting the sin over with in one fell swoop. Even if it takes you 1 year to truly feel sorry for what you have done it has got to be better than carrying on for 15 or so years.

The thing is that every marital act that you engage in forever after will be intentionally damaged. So even if it isn’t a mortal sin to engage in it( assuming that you are both absolved) there is no hope of recovering what will be lost with sterilization. That is what you are looking forward in your marriage. Please reconsider . Please consider the grace and benefit from a life of true love and sacrifice that practicing a very cautious natural family planning regime could bring to your marriage .Don’t sell yourself short. Don’t deny yourself this chance to learn and grow into the best version of yourself that God wants you to be. A man like Him. A man who sacrifices his life ( or at least a portion of your sex life) for the one he loves. Don’t deny yourselves the chance to grow deeper in trust of God.
Have you studied Theology of the Body to understand the language that husband and wife speak with their bodies and how it relates to the Trinity and Christ’s relationship with his church in communion? Please do that before you encourage your wife to damage herself and your union as husband and wife.

 

[PennitentMan]

Well our kids are spaced about 2-3 years apart so it has been “working” for us. At least better than any of the other couples I know who use NFP. The problem is that my wife wants something that work works not NFP kind of “working” after our 4th child. My wife is holding the only cervix that we have and she isn’t willing anymore, so the only option is abstinence or I accept she is going to use ABC.

Hi Tosk.

I was in your shoes about 2 years ago. I was a practicing Catholic with this exact same dilemma….although I have less children, they are closer together…and we were trying not to conceive.
We tries various methods and none worked. Basically NFP is not at all as accurate as anyone makes it out to be.
When they say that any method used to avoid pregnancy has its flaws, it’s true, but at least the ABC guys are quoting real life statistics, not statistics that are gathered with perfect, councilled use, under strictly maintained conditions, recorded using women with specific, predictable cycles that didn’t use other drugs that influence fertility reading or any ambient conditions that might influence fertility readings, like what time you get up in the morning, or the amount of light in the room when you take the readings! I know, crazy!!!

The issue I have is that they don’t tell you these things going in. They just sing it’s wonderful praises and tell you that it’s the best thing ever. Well, it’s not. Your situation is not uncommon.
All of a sudden you find yourself knee deep in kids (bless their little hearts, but still) and you know where to turn. And no one will help you…they can’t. This teaching looks all pretty in theory but can very easily get good, faithful folks stranded between a rock (not being able for a myriad of reasons to handle more kids) and a hard place (Church teachings telling you that any action other than the one you’ve been following WILL land you in hell.)

I’m writing this because I had to find out the hard way that there are no easy outs in this. To remain catholic is to either remain abstinence, or use NFP and roll the dice (which ,effectively is what you are doing, they just put a pretty bow on it and call it “god’s will”.

So, after all that, let me assure you that I can relate to at least your wife’s feelings, and I’m also here to tell you that if you want to remain Catholic, you are hooped trying to find a solution.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

PM

 

[1ke]

The thing I don’t see is, using ABC and putting yourself in the constant state of mortal sin for 15 years has got to be more risky than just getting the sin over with in one fell swoop. Even if it takes you 1 year to truly feel sorry for what you have done it has got to be better than carrying on for 15 or so years.

It’s as if you reject the choice of PLEASING GOD out of hand. The pleasing thing to God is not to sin at all.

Don’t choose sin over fidelity to God. Choose the path of holiness, even if it is HARD.

 

[kage_ar]

Can’t you just confess the sin of presumption? Or would that be really bad because you are adding the sin of presumption on top of the sin of presumption? And I wouldn’t tell her about going to confession so I guess the sin of presumption would be only on my part. I would just be trying to steer her away from the pill and towards something else as the lesser of two evils.

The thing I don’t see is, using ABC and putting yourself in the constant state of mortal sin for 15 years has got to be more risky than just getting the sin over with in one fell swoop. Even if it takes you 1 year to truly feel sorry for what you have done it has got to be better than carrying on for 15 or so years.

As a husband, it is your duty to help your wife get to heaven. Encouraging her or supporting her as she commits any sin is exactly the opposite of helping her get to heaven.

 

[Tosk]

Hi Tosk.

I was in your shoes about 2 years ago. I was a practicing Catholic with this exact same dilemma….although I have less children, they are closer together…and we were trying not to conceive.
We tries various methods and none worked. Basically NFP is not at all as accurate as anyone makes it out to be.
When they say that any method used to avoid pregnancy has its flaws, it’s true, but at least the ABC guys are quoting real life statistics, not statistics that are gathered with perfect, councilled use, under strictly maintained conditions, recorded using women with specific, predictable cycles that didn’t use other drugs that influence fertility reading or any ambient conditions that might influence fertility readings, like what time you get up in the morning, or the amount of light in the room when you take the readings! I know, crazy!!!

Yes, there is some serious cherry picking going on by the people that claim that NFP is 99% effective.

The issue I have is that they don’t tell you these things going in. They just sing it’s wonderful praises and tell you that it’s the best thing ever. Well, it’s not. Your situation is not uncommon.
All of a sudden you find yourself knee deep in kids (bless their little hearts, but still) and you know where to turn. And no one will help you…they can’t. This teaching looks all pretty in theory but can very easily get good, faithful folks stranded between a rock (not being able for a myriad of reasons to handle more kids) and a hard place (Church teachings telling you that any action other than the one you’ve been following WILL land you in hell.)

I don’t know. A lot of people on this board seem to have drank the NFP Kool-Aid pretty hard. I just wish there were a way my wife and I could just accept our destiny and be happy about it.

Our instructors told us they had two accidents as well and they are still totally convinced that NFP works. I guess that is part of what makes NFP so effective: the people who use it are believers and are willing to accept any accidents as God’s will and blame themselves for missing something or messing up. I know at least a dozen or more large catholic families that use NFP and they all have at least 8 children and seem extremely happy. Really they seem like they have been lobotomized to me, but I just wish there were a way I could get like that.

I’m writing this because I had to find out the hard way that there are no easy outs in this. To remain catholic is to either remain abstinence, or use NFP and roll the dice (which ,effectively is what you are doing, they just put a pretty bow on it and call it “god’s will”.

So, after all that, let me assure you that I can relate to at least your wife’s feelings, and I’m also here to tell you that if you want to remain Catholic, you are hooped trying to find a solution.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Having to abandon Christianity is what has stopping me from using ABC. For me using ABC would be a total acceptance of my damnation. I would start using ABC and do any other bad things I could think of along the way, because there really is no point in going to Hell halfway. And why spend all of the torturous time in church if you are on your way to hell?

My wife comes from a protestant background so she doesn’t see things the exact same way. She thinks she will be doing me a big favor by taking responsibility for the whole thing.

 

[Newbie2]

Yes, it is wrong. There is no such thing as a “least wrong” method of contraception. All are equally mortally sinful.

Unless one considers abortion a method of contraception, as some misguided folks do.

Have you been to counseling about this? Don’t answer, just something to think about. When one spouse tries to make a unilateral decision like that, it might be a situation that calls for some help.

Here’s a crazy idea, what would your wife say if you told her you were not going to participate in contraceptive marital relations?

Seriously, there is more than contraception as an issue going on here.

Imagine you have 2 rabbits in a finite area like a box. This box has in it everything that these rabbits need to survive and reproduce. Rabbits don’t have the conscious ability to control how much or little they breed. Imagine they were left to do their thing for 2 years. when you go to check on your box of rabbits in 2 years you see that they are all dead, piles of rabbits suffocated because they wouldn’t stop breeding. 4 kids is more than your share bro, our Earth is this box and if everyone bred like you we would all be dead in a few generations from lack of resources. So in 1 hand you have birth control and the other you are contributing to the problem of overpopulation that will eventually kill us all. Unlike the rabbits you have the conscious ability to use birth control otherwise your just gonna be another breeder filling up the box.

I agree. Don’t feed the troll.

 

[tjm190]

Have you been to counseling about this? Don’t answer, just something to think about. When one spouse tries to make a unilateral decision like that, it might be a situation that calls for some help.

Here’s a crazy idea, what would your wife say if you told her you were not going to participate in contraceptive marital relations?

from her perspective, he’s made a unilateral “no contraception because I’m opposed to it” decision.

 

[kage_ar]

I don’t know. A lot of people on this board seem to have drank the NFP Kool-Aid pretty hard. I just wish there were a way my wife and I could just accept our destiny and be happy about it.

Seems that once one decides to abandon the teachings of the Church, insulting those who have accepted Christ’s teaching is the “cool” thing to do.

Some of us (some of us with very high IQs and everything) researched methods of family planning. I did so a full decade before I considered Catholicism.

I know at least a dozen or more large catholic families that use NFP and they all have at least 8 children and seem extremely happy. Really they seem like they have been lobotomized to me, but I just wish there were a way I could get like that.

I know several families who have had unintended pregnancies while on the pill, while using condoms, while on IUDs, while taking the shot, after vasectomies and after tubal ligations.

I know several families, some on this board, one being my own, where another child was not simply an inconvenience - where pregnancy would have threatened the health or life of the mother.

These people, me included, have used NFP for many years who have the size of family that they were forced to have. We began after the death of our preborn second child. We have one living adult son now. I deeply regret how effective and simple NFP was and wish that there had been a "mistake’ or three or four. I wish I’d had the faith to welcome other children into this world.

I would start using ABC and do any other bad things I could think of along the way, because there really is no point in going to Hell halfway. And why spend all of the torturous time in church if you are on your way to hell?

If you consider time in Church as torturous, I pray that you will come back to Christ. Open your heart to our loving God and have a personal relationship with Jesus. To love and serve Jesus is an honor and a blessing.

There is a forumm with private NFP areas for married adults with private discussion areas for both men and women. I challenge you to visit www.catholic-convert.com and to talk frankly with married men who have the integrity to follow Holy Mother Church.

I pray for a change in your heart to love our Faith.

 

[Corki]

from her perspective, he’s made a unilateral “no contraception because I’m opposed to it” decision.

Not if she’s honest about it. They were already using NFP and there is nothing in the OP or his subsequent posts to indicate that it was his decision alone to do so originally. For all the information given, they may have been using NFP for thier entired married life. It isn’t a unilateral decision to continue keeping your marriage vows, is it?

 

[tjm190]

Not if she’s honest about it. They were already using NFP and there is nothing in the OP or his subsequent posts to indicate that it was his decision alone to do so originally. For all the information given, they may have been using NFP for thier entired married life. It isn’t a unilateral decision to continue keeping your marriage vows, is it?

I suspect they have, but if he were to simply say “No birth control” than he would be being no less unilateral than her in her “Yes birth control” stance. And is NFP written into marriage vows now?

 

[Tosk]

Seems that once one decides to abandon the teachings of the Church, insulting those who have accepted Christ’s teaching is the “cool” thing to do.

If you consider time in Church as torturous, I pray that you will come back to Christ. Open your heart to our loving God and have a personal relationship with Jesus. To love and serve Jesus is an honor and a blessing.

There is a forumm with private NFP areas for married adults with private discussion areas for both men and women. I challenge you to visit www.catholic-convert.com and to talk frankly with married men who have the integrity to follow Holy Mother Church.

I pray for a change in your heart to love our Faith.

I haven’t abandoned the teaching of the church. As for my feelings about church, following JC has nothing to do with feelings so I am safe. I am not deciding to use some method of ABC, that decision is already made, all I am doing is steering my wife away from the pill or IUDs and making clear I can’t use male condoms.

Looking at everything rationally sterilization seems to be the best option. Cutting off marital relations has been suggested but that just doesn’t seem realistic at all. Has anyone ever actually done that? Do you just put a heavy lock on your door and carry around a big stick during the day? The only way that would work is if I move out the house and carry some pepper spray when I am around my wife. I can’t imagine it would be good for our kids growing up with separated parents.