sterlisation?

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this is the situation .
my husband and i are planning a family but given our finances we cant afford more than two children at all .
we are curently using nfp however so is my brother in law and he has 5 kids! non of them planed. out of concience i would not want to risk becoming pregnant with a third as i thimk abortion is wrong and i wouldnt be able to give it up.
so i was wondering is sterelisation considered as part of the sin of mutilation?
 
First, when you are young, it is easy to think you can “see the future”. It is interesting that you feel you know what you can and cannot afford years down the line. Remember, we cannot see the future, we can only know who HOLDS the future.

Second, kids are not as expensive as the secular world make you think. The second and subsequent kids can use the things like baby bed and high chair that the first child used, hand me down clothes never killed anyone 🙂

Last, here is the link from the Catechism:

[2367](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2367.htm’)😉 Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.154 "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."155
2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156
2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."157
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160
2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).
 
yes it is,
let me quote something for you -

“mutilation is an action which deprives oneself or another of a bodily organ or its use,
the removal or suppressing the function of any organ of reproduction is in a moral category of its own. It is never permitted when the purpose is directly to prevent conception or pregnancy.”

you may not think you could afford more then 2 children, but then you do not have enough faith in God,
we say “God provides” for a reason, and there is no family that has true faith in God who are good people, who could not provide for their family,
we know by the example of the life of Jesus, that living in poverty is a good thing,
now i don’t know you at all, so don’t take this personally, but what is making you financially unable to provide for more then 2 children?
do you have television and cable? computer and internet? or any other appliance you could live without?
it’s one thing to have a comfortable life when you can afford it, but when you choose that comfortable life over having more children, then it’s not just a comfortable life, it’s a selfish one.
it may seem cruel to alot of people to not give the best to your children or to deprive them of alot of what other children have, but you know, that’s what alot of the saints grew up with, and look where they are now,
having everything you want is not required to live happily, and definitely not required to go to heaven,

also remember, God does not give us more then we can handle, if you leave yourself open to having as many children as God wants you to, you will not have more then you can provide for,
you just need to have more faith in God, and put things in His hands,
because if you start deciding for yourself what you can and can’t do, then you close the door to any help you can get from God that would otherwise make you able to do it.

God can help you and show you which path to take, you just need to pray on it.

well i hope i haven’t offended you, that really wasn’t my goal here, and if that’s not how it is at all then i’m sorry, but otherwise i hope this has helped.
 
this is the situation .
my husband and i are planning a family but given our finances we cant afford more than two children at all .
You cannot know what the future holds for you over the next twenty years. We are called to be open to life, and this is something you should continually evaluate not make a decision and never look back.
we are curently using nfp however so is my brother in law and he has 5 kids! non of them planed.
That is them, not you.
out of concience i would not want to risk becoming pregnant with a third as i thimk abortion is wrong and i wouldnt be able to give it up.
If you truly believe you have a serious reason to avoid a pregancy then you have incentive to practice NFP faithfully and conservatively. And, if you are not comfortable with your current method, you can look at other methods.
so i was wondering is sterelisation considered as part of the sin of mutilation?
Yes. Sterilization is a grave sin.
 
We wanted a big family. When I was in my early 30s I had to have a hysterectomy. Physically I never felt better because of the surgery. Emotionally and mentally I have never gotten over the surgery. My surgery was to save my life (cancer) and I still think there could have been another way besides the chosen one.

To have any surgery to be used as birth control is a grave sin.
 
thank you for your information . please understand that i do not take the idea lightly , i would love to have more .
your right i probably dont have enough faith in the mater ,let me explain.

i did advanced human biology and i know that there is no true infertile period in a womans cycle it just hader to conceive as the gammetes (sperm) have to swim against your period a gammete can fertalise an imiture ovum at any point in your cycle and still produce a zygote the implanting of the zygote is a litle harder (again the flow of the period ) , so to tell the truth i have almost no faith in the nfp system.

yes it is imposible to predict 100% of the future however our anual income last year was £3572.68p thats the highest its been since we first got together . my husband will be of retiring age shortly so our income is set to drop (yes i do work). i cannot see this stretching to feed and clothe a big family.

my husband and i would be ok in living like brother and sister but temptation is there we are human accidents happen .

i am not some callouce child hating cow just trying to find a solution:shrug:
 
thank you for your information . please understand that i do not take the idea lightly , i would love to have more .
your right i probably dont have enough faith in the mater ,let me explain.

i did advanced human biology and i know that there is no true infertile period in a womans cycle it just hader to conceive as the gammetes (sperm) have to swim against your period a gammete can fertalise an imiture ovum at any point in your cycle and still produce a zygote the implanting of the zygote is a litle harder (again the flow of the period ) , so to tell the truth i have almost no faith in the nfp system.

yes it is imposible to predict 100% of the future however our anual income last year was £3572.68p thats the highest its been since we first got together . my husband will be of retiring age shortly so our income is set to drop (yes i do work). i cannot see this stretching to feed and clothe a big family.

my husband and i would be ok in living like brother and sister but temptation is there we are human accidents happen .

i am not some callouce child hating cow just trying to find a solution:shrug:
You should try taking a NFP class. NFP isn’t about only having sex during your period because it’s difficult for the sperm to swim. It’s much more scientific than that. As a person with an appreciation of biology you will find it edifying.
 
thank you for your information . please understand that i do not take the idea lightly , i would love to have more .
your right i probably dont have enough faith in the mater ,let me explain.

i did advanced human biology and i know that there is no true infertile period in a womans cycle it just hader to conceive as the gammetes (sperm) have to swim against your period a gammete can fertalise an imiture ovum at any point in your cycle and still produce a zygote the implanting of the zygote is a litle harder (again the flow of the period ) , so to tell the truth i have almost no faith in the nfp system.

yes it is imposible to predict 100% of the future however our anual income last year was £3572.68p thats the highest its been since we first got together . my husband will be of retiring age shortly so our income is set to drop (yes i do work). i cannot see this stretching to feed and clothe a big family.

my husband and i would be ok in living like brother and sister but temptation is there we are human accidents happen .

i am not some callouce child hating cow just trying to find a solution:shrug:
I’m not trained in human biology, however, I’m pretty sure that a woman releases an egg once per cycle (sometimes both ovaries release eggs or the same ovary releases eggs within 24 hours, and fraternal twins result), but I don’t think that multiple eggs can be released within a single cycle days or weeks apart. With NFP you track your fertility with biological markers–basal body temp, mucous, cervix position, and fertility monitors (depending on the version of NFP you use). There are naturally infertile periods in the woman’s cycle and they can be tracked. NFP can be as effective as you and your dh make it and how well you follow the rules. You should really do some more study about NFP and human reproduction:
omsoul.com
ccli.org
nfpandmore.org
woomb.org
creightonmodel.com
fertilityuk.org/

Also, just because you dh is retirement age, does he have to retire? Can he keep working?

NFP (periodic abstinence) and total abstinence are the only licit way to space babies and limit family size.
 
i did advanced human biology and i know that there is no true infertile period in a womans cycle it just hader to conceive as the gammetes (sperm) have to swim against your period a gammete can fertalise an imiture ovum at any point in your cycle and still produce a zygote the implanting of the zygote is a litle harder (again the flow of the period ) , so to tell the truth i have almost no faith in the nfp system.
:ehh: You might want to go back and take another biology class. Most women only release one ovum per cycle, which if unfertilized only survives 24-48 hours post-ovulation. Sperm can live in a woman’s fertile mucus for up to 5 days, which is why in NFP a woman’s fertile phase usually ends up being about a week after symptoms are determined.
 
thank you for your information . please understand that i do not take the idea lightly , i would love to have more .
your right i probably dont have enough faith in the mater ,let me explain.

i did advanced human biology and i know that there is no true infertile period in a womans cycle it just hader to conceive as the gammetes (sperm) have to swim against your period a gammete can fertalise an imiture ovum at any point in your cycle and still produce a zygote the implanting of the zygote is a litle harder (again the flow of the period ) , so to tell the truth i have almost no faith in the nfp system.

yes it is imposible to predict 100% of the future however our anual income last year was £3572.68p thats the highest its been since we first got together . my husband will be of retiring age shortly so our income is set to drop (yes i do work). i cannot see this stretching to feed and clothe a big family.

my husband and i would be ok in living like brother and sister but temptation is there we are human accidents happen .

i am not some callouce child hating cow just trying to find a solution:shrug:
Hi there SL (I like shortening names).

I’m responding because, like you, I have had to explore whether there are options available.
Your situation is unique, for sure. And I do agree with you on your take on NFP. We conceived when there was “supposedly” no possibility to conceive, even our NFP-schooled doctor said so. Of course that destroyed my faith in NFP. And, for varying reasons we cannot get pregnant again…So, I started asking, looking, reading and questioning.

So…the Catholic stance on this is VERY black and white. No gray areas exist. No special permission exist. They label it as being intrinsically evil. Meaning evil in and of itself. No matter how honest, good, saintly a parent you are, there is no exception. There was none for me and unfortunately there will be none for you.
 
i did advanced human biology and i know that there is no true infertile period in a womans cycle it just hader to conceive as the gammetes (sperm) have to swim against your period a gammete can fertalise an imiture ovum at any point in your cycle and still produce a zygote the implanting of the zygote is a litle harder (again the flow of the period ) , so to tell the truth i have almost no faith in the nfp system.
This is totally false.

I don’t know where you studied “advanced” human biology but your statements above are completely inaccurate.
 
Many women ovulate more than once per month. This was discovered in many secular studies and repeated in subsequent studies.One such study I know about was done with Nurses many of whom used nfp. The thing is that many of the sympto thermal methods show these other ovulations during charting if one is adequately trained.
 
Many women ovulate more than once per month. This was discovered in many secular studies and repeated in subsequent studies.One such study I know about was done with Nurses many of whom used nfp. The thing is that many of the sympto thermal methods show these other ovulations during charting if one is adequately trained.
Source please…because everything I can find says even if multiple ovulation happens it’s within 24 hours and wouldn’t affect charting…

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LJZ/is_2_23/ai_n18617059/pg_1
<<Erroneous news reports that women can ovulate more than once during a menstrual cycle resulted from journalists’ misinterpretation of a study published in the July 2003 issue of the journal Fertility and Sterility, reproductive health experts say.>>
 
Source please…because everything I can find says even if multiple ovulation happens it’s within 24 hours and wouldn’t affect charting…

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LJZ/is_2_23/ai_n18617059/pg_1
<<Erroneous news reports that women can ovulate more than once during a menstrual cycle resulted from journalists’ misinterpretation of a study published in the July 2003 issue of the journal Fertility and Sterility, reproductive health experts say.>>
I can’t get to my sources. They are packed up in boxes with my nursing school stuff. But they are older than the 2003 articles.I’m thinking mine are from late 90’s. My memory could be faulty but I distictly remember the nurses being able to p(name removed by moderator)oint a second ovulation from their chart which was backed up by a sonogram. I totally can’t remember the time lapse between ovulations. I think I recall 36 hours the most for the second one. But I also remember the rare ovulation during the period.
I really dismissed the significance of it since it seemed to be observable by the nurses charting. In my mind it isn’t a problem for nfp users at all.
 
i studied at salters (manchester universitys gifted and tallented progaram) and at deukeries ( my local college ) under dr billington and as she worked for ivf clinics befor teaching i think her knowlege is prity sound .
i was not refering to multiple releases but to the fact that gammeets verry often swim right into the overies wile the ovum are still on the vine so to speek this is one of the reasons we get eptopic pregnancys however those are rare usualy once the ovum is fertalised it breaks free as the cell starts dividing most of these are naturaly aborted by the uterus but a small percentage of them do sucesfully implant .

as for retireing in england a lot of indusries are not alowed to recrute after you turn 65 and most do not want to .
you are verry limited .

i am not aposed to nfp just not conviced , like i said im looking for options and its going to be somthing that will need to be reveiwed at a later date i just want to know where we stand.
 
i studied at salters (manchester universitys gifted and tallented progaram) and at deukeries ( my local college ) under dr billington and as she worked for ivf clinics befor teaching i think her knowlege is prity sound .
i was not refering to multiple releases but to the fact that gammeets verry often swim right into the overies wile the ovum are still on the vine so to speek this is one of the reasons we get eptopic pregnancys however those are rare usualy once the ovum is fertalised it breaks free as the cell starts dividing most of these are naturaly aborted by the uterus but a small percentage of them do sucesfully implant .

as for retireing in england a lot of indusries are not alowed to recrute after you turn 65 and most do not want to .
you are verry limited .

i am not aposed to nfp just not conviced , like i said im looking for options and its going to be somthing that will need to be reveiwed at a later date i just want to know where we stand.
The information I have on IVF is that hormones are given to the woman to make her ovulate and produce lots of eggs. This is a much different situation then natural ovulation.

You said that you wanted children in one post two I believe. You also said that your husband is close to retirement. Is there a very large age difference between you? How does you husband feel about the issue of being open to life and NFP?
 
yes i am 19 in december , :eek:

he has more faith than i in the system but also dose not want to risk a third child he would rather have 2 children living in relative comfort knowing that there will be food on the table . than have more and wonder where the next meal will come from .

we would love to have a lot more and to be open to however many would come but our financial situation just dosnt allow this .😦
 
yes i am 19 in december , :eek:

he has more faith than i in the system but also dose not want to risk a third child he would rather have 2 children living in relative comfort knowing that there will be food on the table . than have more and wonder where the next meal will come from .

we would love to have a lot more and to be open to however many would come but our financial situation just dosnt allow this .😦
Kids really do not eat so much food that you can be living in comfort with two kids and be starving with three.

By the time kids are old enough to be eating machines, they are old enough to have a job and help with household expenses.
 
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