Steve Ray-Amalekites 1-26-15

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I took a look at his site, and the collection of posts on the topic. Couldn’t find the references. Could you point me to one?
It’s already been referenced, several times, but here it is again:
Hard Sayings of the Old Testament
By Jimmy Akin
jimmyakin.com/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html
If this is the case then God never did command the extermination of the
Canaanites and we, because we are not familiar with the way literature
was written at this time, tend to take as literal something that was
never meant to be literal

And this:

In this case the commands found in the Pentateuch concerning the
Canaanites would not be meant to be taken in a literal sense. We know
that the early history in Scripture contains symbolic elements as well
as literal ones, and these commands would then turn out to be symbolic.
 
You seem enamored with the word. 😉
Wow.

Here’s some other words and phrases I like to use a lot. For fun you can see how many times I’ve used them: 🙂
  • duped
  • tacit submission
  • Jesus
  • Mary
  • Church
  • Catholic
  • baptism
  • ordinance
  • symbolic
  • metaphor
  • recusant
  • adamantine
  • ga-ga, la-la nonsense
  • obdurate
  • my breath is offensive to my wife
  • otiose
  • inutile
  • Saul went into a cave to relieve himself
AND! For fun you can see how few times, if any, I’ve used these words or phrases:
  • hamartoma
  • antediluvian
  • my DH is an indolent sloth
  • Bethesda
  • kerfuffle
    and…
  • you have the dubious honor of being the only Catholic on my ignore list now.
Not very many times, at all, for the above. 🤷
 
It’s an odd word. You used it a few times in rapid succession. 🤷

If ever you wondered whether your posts were being read carefully, now you know. 😉
and…
you have the dubious honor of being the only Catholic on my ignore list now.
I’ll take that as a metaphor. 😉

Blessings,
G.
 
It’s already been referenced, several times, but here it is again:
Thank you!

Now… let’s see what the article says…
If this is the case then God never did command the extermination of the
Canaanites and we, because we are not familiar with the way literature
was written at this time, tend to take as literal something that was
never meant to be literal
And this:
In this case the commands found in the Pentateuch concerning the
Canaanites would not be meant to be taken in a literal sense. We know
that the early history in Scripture contains symbolic elements as well
as literal ones, and these commands would then turn out to be symbolic.
PR, you’ve just committed some pretty heinous selective quoting. Your citations make it seem that Akin is saying that God did not command ‘genocide.’ That’s not, in fact, what Akin is doing here. Actually, Akin considers both answers (‘yes, He commanded genocide’ and ‘no, He didn’t’) at length. Here’s a quote from the article that you failed to cite:
It thus seems to me that, either way one goes (assuming that the commands were literal or that they weren’t), a rational account can be offered that shows God was not acting unjustly.
In other words, Akin doesn’t come down on the side of ‘yes’ or ‘no’ – and, in fact, he asserts that either decision can be defended. Through it all, though, he rejects what your main argument is: that a command to kill all Amalekites would be unjust on God’s part.

Thanks for providing the reference to Akin’s article! It helps refute your argument quite effectively! 👍
 
I don’t know. That would depend entirely on God having justifiable warrant. Clearly reasons human beings have for refraining from killing innocents do not entirely constrain God from having HIS reasons for doing so.
That would apply equally then to rape. You must assert that God may command a husband to rape his wife due to “justifiable warrant”. Clearly reasons human beings have from refraining from raping do not entirely constrain God from having HIS reasons for commanding this.

The applications of this type of thinking are frightening. Absolutely horrifying.
 
Well, there are numerous possibilities here, eric.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of sinful pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it this way. And the inspired author interpreted it differently.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it this way. And the inspired author limned this metaphorical slaughter in the text.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of sinful pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it incorrectly. And the inspired author wrote about their incorrect enactment of their understanding.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of sinful pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it this way. And the inspired author interpreted it differently.
My question seems to have gone off a tangent. I was referring to the many examples of slaughtering as the Israelites conquered the cities given to them by the Lord, not the sinful pagan life within the tribe.
  1. The cities were conquered. I think we all agree to this. God promised them those lands.
  2. They fought to gain those lands. People got killed, children included. Do you agree? Unless you are claiming the Israelites took over the cities without a single killing? I think that would be ridiculous.
  3. These conquests were over a period of time. if someone misunderstood the first instance, the Lord would have made it clear the second time round. But no one was punished. No one was reprimanded. So the slaughtering was permitted. Again and again.
  4. There was no indication that Moses/Joshua misunderstood. Subsequent writers would have mentioned or the authors would have wrote that they have misunderstood and asked for forgiveness. But nothing claiming misunderstanding was recorded.
  5. You illustrated many possibilities, but none of those were ever mentioned in the OT as the correct interpretation. That is arguing from silence. For thousands of years, no one explained that these were to be understood that way. I would be happy to hear of any one of those possibilities. Until the modern era.
Again, I am not arguing that these incidents could not be viewed through different lenses. They could. But the original intent was to record the historical achievements of the Israelites as promised by God. I will give you these lands as promised . Go and get them. Distasteful by modern standards, but normal by ancient standards. From human eyes that is. But what is in God’s mind? I won’t have a clue. The nicest thing I could think off is that instead of children growing up to be like their parents and be bad is that by their early deaths they would have been spared a spiritual death. Or like the example I provided earlier, getting rid of a pit of vipers, including the “innocent” young, less they grow up and killed you and your offsprings instead.

Since we have reached an impasse, I think it better we stop here. I wouldn’t want to generate further animosity and cause ill feelings among us. We should be able to enter into discussions academically and agree to disagree and not let such topics divide us. There are more controversial topics ahead but violence in the OT is one of the toughest to handle.
 
Since we have reached an impasse, I think it better we stop here. I wouldn’t want to generate further animosity and cause ill feelings among us. We should be able to enter into discussions academically and agree to disagree and not let such topics divide us.
Thanks, eric!

The animosity confuses me. Unless it’s just that my style is perceived as too abrasive, it’s puzzling why hearing “no, your point doesn’t hold up” leads to such anger. 🤷
violence in the OT is one of the toughest to handle.
It really is. Akin’s analysis – that the violence doesn’t imply injustice on God’s part – is a good one, though…
 
Again, I am not arguing that these incidents could not be viewed through different lenses. They could.
Egg-zactly my point.
But the original intent was to record the historical achievements of the Israelites as promised by God. I will give you these lands as promised . Go and get them. Distasteful by modern standards, but normal by ancient standards. From human eyes that is. But what is in God’s mind? I won’t have a clue.
🤷
The nicest thing I could think off is that instead of children growing up to be like their parents and be bad is that by their early deaths they would have been spared a spiritual death. Or like the example I provided earlier, getting rid of a pit of vipers, including the “innocent” young, less they grow up and killed you and your offsprings instead.
That is one way to look at it.

I don’t find it very convincing…but…you are certainly permitted to embrace that view as a Catholic.
 
That would apply equally then to rape. You must assert that God may command a husband to rape his wife due to “justifiable warrant”. Clearly reasons human beings have from refraining from raping do not entirely constrain God from having HIS reasons for commanding this.

The applications of this type of thinking are frightening. Absolutely horrifying.
I don’t agree that such “applications” follow, but I also DON’T think adequate explanations are easy to come by, which is precisely why the passages are problematic to begin with.

I also suspect treating them as metaphors does not adequately answer the difficulty many individuals, even Christians - even myself - have with them.
 
I don’t agree that such “applications” follow, but I also DON’T think adequate explanations are easy to come by, which is precisely why the passages are problematic to begin with.

I also suspect treating them as metaphors does not adequately answer the difficulty many individuals, even Christians - even myself - have with them.
👍

Even if they were metaphors, isn’t the wrong done by thought and what is in the heart even if it isn’t carried out? That is a problem. For to carry out the thought into action, the sin was already done in thought. So to say God metaphorically commanded what was wrong is still a problem.

To say God did it, or to say God did it metaphorically…doesn’t it come to the same thing?

“I know the sun is shinning even when it isn’t shinning.” Christian hymn
 
That would apply equally then to rape. You must assert that God may command a husband to rape his wife due to “justifiable warrant”. Clearly reasons human beings have from refraining from raping do not entirely constrain God from having HIS reasons for commanding this.
No, it wouldn’t apply to rape; that’s an invalid extrapolation. The assertion isn’t one of absolute license (“I made you, so I own you”), but one of the nature of creation and the giving of life. If it were the former, then rape would be fair game; but it’s not. Yes, God is Lord and Master; but that doesn’t imply that He’s cruel. Rape is sin that’s about usurping power that does not belong to one – it’s a sin that says “I have no rights over your body, but I’m going to take them for my own anyway.” That is not something we’d ascribe to God.
The applications of this type of thinking are frightening. Absolutely horrifying.
They are, if the line of reasoning were valid; but it’s not. As an example, it’s like saying, “a parent has the right to discipline his child, based on his responsibilities as parent”, and then countering, “well, if the parent has that right, then the parent has the right to discipline through sexual exploitation.” No way! The former does not imply the latter! The attempt to assert that a parent doesn’t have the right of discipline because he does not have the right to exploit the child is just poor logic. 🤷
 
👍

Even if they were metaphors, isn’t the wrong done by thought and what is in the heart even if it isn’t carried out? That is a problem. For to carry out the thought into action, the sin was already done in thought. So to say God metaphorically commanded what was wrong is still a problem.

To say God did it, or to say God did it metaphorically…doesn’t it come to the same thing?

“I know the sun is shinning even when it isn’t shinning.” Christian hymn
III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE
109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75
Revelation is suited to the cultural and moral level of distant times and thus describes facts and customs, such as cheating and trickery, and acts of violence and massacre, without explicitly denouncing the immorality of such things.

we should be aware that the correct interpretation of these passages requires a degree of expertise, acquired through a training that interprets the texts in their historical-literary context and within the Christian perspective which has as its ultimate hermeneutical key “the Gospel and the new commandment of Jesus Christ brought about in the paschal mystery”.

“The basic problem with fundamentalist interpretation is that, refusing to take into account the historical character of biblical revelation, it makes itself incapable of accepting the full truth of the incarnation itself. As regards relationships with God, fundamentalism seeks to escape any closeness of the divine and the human … for this reason, it tends to treat the biblical text as if it had been dictated word for word by the Spirit. It fails to recognize that the word of God has been formulated in language and expression conditioned by various periods”.[146] Christianity, on the other hand, perceives in the words the Word himself, the Logos who displays his mystery through this complexity and the reality of human history.[147] The true response to a fundamentalist approach is “the faith-filled interpretation of sacred Scripture”. This manner of interpretation, “practised from antiquity within the Church’s Tradition, seeks saving truth for the life of the individual Christian and for the Church. It recognizes the historical value of the biblical tradition. Precisely because of the tradition’s value as an historical witness, this reading seeks to discover the living meaning of the sacred Scriptures for the lives of believers today”,[148] while not ignoring the human mediation of the inspired text and its literary genres.
 
No, it wouldn’t apply to rape; that’s an invalid extrapolation. The assertion isn’t one of absolute license (“I made you, so I own you”), but one of the nature of creation and the giving of life. If it were the former, then rape would be fair game; but it’s not. Yes, God is Lord and Master; but that doesn’t imply that He’s cruel. Rape is sin that’s about usurping power that does not belong to one – it’s a sin that says “I have no rights over your body, but I’m going to take them for my own anyway.” That is not something we’d ascribe to God.

They are, if the line of reasoning were valid; but it’s not. As an example, it’s like saying, “a parent has the right to discipline his child, based on his responsibilities as parent”, and then countering, “well, if the parent has that right, then the parent has the right to discipline through sexual exploitation.” No way! The former does not imply the latter! The attempt to assert that a parent doesn’t have the right of discipline because he does not have the right to exploit the child is just poor logic. 🤷
This is correct and, I think, an appropriate approach to the fundamental issue in question, which seems, on the surface, to be whether God has the moral right to command that innocent children be killed, but, I suspect, the real issue is whether we, as believers, could find a way to have faith in or be subject to a God who would command that innocent children be killed. This is fundamentally a question of the object of faith. Do we have faith in God or in ourselves?

For that answer, and this is why punting to metaphor doesn’t cut it, we have to look at the man who is considered the “father” of faith - Abraham. In fact, God issued this very same command to Abraham, that he kill an innocent child - his own innocent child - to precisely determine whether Abraham finally had faith in God rather than in himself.

This is why the question is so vexing. It puts THAT issue on the line. It would seem that contending that God would NEVER issue such a command is NOT having faith in God but, rather, having faith in the restraints that we place upon God. If we can hold him accountable and humane, then we can determine what he will or will not command and, thereby, hold him accountable to our standards. Under those conditions, we might be able to muster a modicum of trust in him. Yet, the faith is in our own capacity to be moral instead of in God to be God.

This might appear to endorse a kind of free-for-all permission principle where to do whatever one can conjure up as a ”God command" will be right and good, but that isn’t so. To have faith IN God, it is necessary to KNOW, TRUST and LOVE God. Merely making a claim with regard to what God commands is not sufficient. Abraham knew God, he also loved and trusted God. He knew that God and not some wild imagining was where the command to sacrifice Isaac came from. God commanded the act and Abraham knew HE commanded the act - that is what makes Abraham the father of faith. Not that he was willing to kill in God’s name, but, rather, that he trusted in God without reservation and demonstrated that trust by his faith.

The problem with the contention that God would never command the killing of innocents is patently false. God did command Abraham to kill Isaac, who was innocent as far as Abraham was concerned, and Abraham’s willingness to carry out the command showed his trust in God, not in himself. He could not deny the source of the command and he knew he could not override the demand precisely because THAT would NOT be faith in God, but, rather, faith in his own ability to determine the good.

Abraham was not a bloodthirsty callous fellow. He loved Isaac more than he loved himself. The question was, did he love and trust God more than he loved and trusted himself - or Sarai?

There is far more at stake here than answering atheists who neither know nor trust God. Who is ultimately in command? Do we know him? Love him? Trust him?
Jesus was innocent. Yet, he knew that it was God the Father’s will that he be crucified. “Not my will, but yours be done.” Abraham would much rather have killed himself than Isaac, his son whom he loved.

Who do we trust? is the salient question - God or our own conceptions of morality? Who is the source and summit of our faith? A moral code or the Living God? To trust the Living God we must first know the Living God. That is the problem for non-believers who neither know nor trust him. It is also a problem for jihadist types who claim to love him but neither know nor trust him because they, too, can only cite a moral ideology because they believe God is their master rather than their Father. They don’t dare get close enough to God to find out, nor do they permit others to do so by threat of the sword. The distance from God is enforced by threat of the sword.
Atheist types fear coming to know God because they fear that their autonomy will be put into jeopardy, which is why they cite the problematic passages as a way of keeping others and themselves from coming to know God. The passages instill fear and distrust which keeps the distance between God and man viable. Perfect love, however, casts out all fear.
 
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Peter_Plato:
Pope Benedict on the consistency of God’s person (I Am), and the “reasonability” of that nature:
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg.html
specifically the first half

A profound encounter of faith and reason is taking place here, an encounter between genuine enlightenment and religion. From the very heart of Christian faith and, at the same time, the heart of Greek thought now joined to faith, Manuel II was able to say: **Not to act “with logos” is contrary to God’s nature. **
In all honesty, one must observe that in the late Middle Ages we find trends in theology which would sunder this synthesis between the Greek spirit and the Christian spirit. In contrast with the so-called intellectualism of Augustine and Thomas, there arose with Duns Scotus a voluntarism which, in its later developments, led to the claim that we can only know God’s voluntas ordinata. Beyond this is the realm of God’s freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done. This gives rise to positions which clearly approach those of Ibn Hazm and might even lead to the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness. God’s transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions. As opposed to this, the faith of the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which - as the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 stated - unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language. God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love, as Saint Paul says, “transcends” knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is Logos. Consequently, Christian worship is, again to quote Paul - “λογικη λατρεία”, worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1).[10]…
 
I don’t agree that such “applications” follow,
Of course it follows, Peter.

This type of reasoning reminds me of a call I heard on Catholic Answers Live. A caller asserted that he did not think abortion should be illegal because we all have free will, and to stop someone from aborting would be to contravene our free will.

The guest asked if the caller was against laws that prohibited rape (he was). Even though it interfered with our free will.

The caller’s position, at first, was “I don’t agree that such ‘applications’ follow” (paraphrasing).

To his credit, he did, at the end of the call, agree to re-evaluate his position due to the obvious inconsistency.

It does indeed follow, even if one doesn’t want to recognize it.
 
Of course it follows, Peter.

This type of reasoning reminds me of a call I heard on Catholic Answers Live. A caller asserted that he did not think abortion should be illegal because we all have free will, and to stop someone from aborting would be to contravene our free will.

The guest asked if the caller was against laws that prohibited rape (he was). Even though it interfered with our free will.

The caller’s position, at first, was “I don’t agree that such ‘applications’ follow” (paraphrasing).

To his credit, he did, at the end of the call, agree to re-evaluate his position due to the obvious inconsistency.

It does indeed follow, even if one doesn’t want to recognize it.
Well, no. The reason it doesn’t follow is because we are not talking about human free will, but rather on the nature of the will of God. God is not merely free to choose the good, it is his will that determines the nature of the good.

Taking Clem’s last post into mind, God’s will is not capricious, but neither is it constrained by some higher principle. God’s will is the highest principle. God’s will is God’s nature. They are not separable, not distinct.

God commanded Abraham to kill Isaac. The question is: Why did he? He did not command Mary to give birth to Jesus. There is a reason for that built into the very nature of God, of Goodness itself and how Goodness is integrally sustained in creation. God can act to end evil or the future possibility of evil. He may even permit evil to bring about a greater good, but he does not do or command positive evil to bring about good.

Killing is NOT a positive act with positive ends. It prevents, brings to an end or terminates. Rape creates or potentially creates. The two have substantially different ends, so the permissibility of one does not automatically entail the permissibility of the other.

Killing, even the killing of innocents, is sometimes permitted (self-defense, to protect the innocent, preventing greater evil, etc.) but rape never is. It doesn’t follow.
 
There was another thread on CAF a couple of months back where a scenario was proposed that a terrorist highjacker had commandeered a plane with 200 people on board and was about to fly it into a building with 2000 people inside. The question was whether it would have been moral and permissible to shoot down the plane and kill the 200 innocent people in order to save the 2000.

The thread went on through hundreds of posts.

PR, I can’t remember if you offered an opinion, but could you do so now?

Would it be permissible under those circumstances to kill 200 innocent people in order to save 2000?
 
Well, no. The reason it doesn’t follow is because we are not talking about human free will, but rather on the nature of the will of God. God is not merely free to choose the good, it is his will that determines the nature of the good.
The example I gave was not about free will.

It’s simply an example of an inconsistent and incoherent position being held by someone.

He, initially, couldn’t see how his position “It’s wrong to make abortion illegal” was inconsistent with his position, “It’s fine to make rape illegal”.

The first does indeed follow from the second.
 
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