Steve Ray-Amalekites 1-26-15

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So do you believe that God commanded humans to be stewards of the earth?

Do you believe God could pass along the moral authority for us to mow the grass, or is that an intrinsically immoral act of killing?

Do you believe God could pass along the moral authority for us to kill a cow, or put down a dog? Or is that murder?

If God is King and Creator of all, and the king of Israel particularly, then God has the power not only to do things Himself, but to give orders and to give His authority to his underlings.

The whole point of kingly authority, from the ancient Middle Eastern point of view, was that whatever was moral for the king to do, was moral for the king to order an underling to do. An underling acting under orders from the king was acting in the person of the king, not as himself. Obviously, human kings were imperfect and could not really decree that their underlings not be culpable. But God obviously could.

If it’s moral for God to kill by natural causes and to smite in other ways, and if it’s not murder when He does it, it’s moral for people whom He orders and it’s not murder for them, either.

Obviously, we should all pray that God not get smitey on us, and should not appoint anybody to act as our scourge. But is there anything intrinsically preventing God from doing such a thing again? No. It is unlikely that He would repeat Himself, that’s all.
  1. If you like sleepung at night nowing there is a god who makes killing babies a part of salvation history, then by all means- you and your baby killing god have fun. ( i would love nit to refer to your god as not a baby killer, but alas the proof is in the pudding, your very iwn pudding!)
  2. Why is it ok for god to act as a scourge? Could god ever act immorally towards creation in your eyes?
 
LOL–have I made that claim? This is a discussion forum, bird! So… discuss! What is the nature of the evil of ‘genocide’? If we want to paint God with a sin, let’s make sure we understand what the nature of that sin is. So, again – and hopefully, this time you’ll answer and not just snark at me (;)): what’s the nature of the evil of genocide?

Did I say that? But, you ask a valid question: what is the definition of God? If we’re discussing what ‘God’ is, we need to know what might be the definition of who He is. You present one possible definition: the guy ID’ed as ‘God’ in the Bible. Is there another definition that you’d like to propose?
It mustve been the liberal nuns at catholic school, but i was taught that the act of genocide is always evil. Especially when the targetd of violence are infants

Who is god to you? To me, most of my discussions revolve around that chap in the holy book of the christians called the bible.
 
But if you want to get to the boned of it

Genocide is bad because it is the deprivation of life based solely in a characterisitoc that one can not control. Such as membership in a tribe
 
What a silly game but i will play: suppose the christian god, instesd of commanding you to kill hitler, commanded you to rape his mother, and impregnate her right before she was to lay with hitler’s father, thus causing the mixture of genetic material to create a completely different individual and consequently robbing the world of hitler, as that particular egg and that particular sperm never get to meet.
I can’t even begin to address the problem with this counter example – it would take far more time and energy than I have at the moment, along with many pages of posts, so I’ll leave you to your illusion.
In all homesty, i thought christians were against an ends justify the means rationale when it comes to morality. Shocking to see you guys allow the christian god an out u deny yourselves. An out he dosent need as he can easily create a universe without a hitler commiting savage acts without us having to do his dirty work of murder/rape
First off, the ends justifying the means rationale is much more subtle than you seem to understand. A surgeon is permitted to remove a patient’s leg to save a cancer victim’s life. Ergo ends do justify the means some of the times. There are other considerations, as well, such as the principle of double effect and choosing the lesser of two evils when there are no other options. What you suppose you understand but actually do not may, in fact, be the problem.

I suspect the problem is that you conceive of God merely as a large, super powerful human-like being in the sky subject to the same moral rules as humans rather than as ontologically unique.

Thoughts from a different perspective than your anthropocentric, man-is-the-measure-of-all-things and centre of the universe view…
Assume that, as some versions of the argument from evil put it, God is a “morally perfect being”. Assume also that suffering exists in the world. To make the second fact tell against the first, we need to articulate a code of divine ethics, and locate prohibitions against suffering somewhere on it.
To approach this, start with the following moral claim: it is wrong to take the life of X merely because it vexes us. Clearly, the truth of the claim depends on what X is. We could make a list of descending values (M) like this: the act would be a terrible thing to do to a child, a perverse thing to do to some highly valued animal or possession, a pretty insensitive thing to do to a dog, an unobjectionable thing to do to a mole, a perfectly understandable act to do to a moth, and to do it to a weed would almost seem to have no moral significance at all. So when we try to articulate God’s ethics with respect to, say, allowing the suffering of the innocent, what is its analogue on M?
The question is made more problematic if we consider the principle that governs what is better or worse on M. There’re a lot of accounts of what the principle is, but St. Thomas’s account of why man can kill plants and non-human animals is a good place to start:
There is no sin in using a thing for the purpose for which it is. Now the order of things is such that the imperfect are for the perfect, even as in the process of generation nature proceeds from imperfection to perfection… Wherefore it is not unlawful if man use plants for the good of animals, and animals for the good of man
So what happens when we add that God and angels are more perfect than human beings? If this is the principle governing things, it suggests we are a little further down on M than we might wish. Whatever our feelings might be, the logic doesn’t leave much wiggle room: if the strata of perfection determine moral action, then if we introduce a sort of existence that is as many levels above us as we are above plants, such a being’s moral treatment of us be analogous to our treatment of plants. So what do we conclude if we posit a being that is infinitely many strata higher above us than we are to plants?
 
  1. If you like sleepung at night nowing there is a god who makes killing babies a part of salvation history, then by all means- you and your baby killing god have fun. ( i would love nit to refer to your god as not a baby killer, but alas the proof is in the pudding, your very iwn pudding!)
I’m curious why you think God is a baby-killer. Is it because of what you have read in Scripture?
  1. Why is it ok for god to act as a scourge? Could god ever act immorally towards creation in your eyes?
God is the good. God cannot act immorally.

People, on the other hand, do act immorally. We are slow to learn, and we deflect responsibility for our evil, even sometimes deflecting it to God himself. Lacking in knowledge of God, we also lack self knowledge. We behave in ignorant ways, because we don’t know God or ourselves. In other words, we don’t know any better. We commit evil, and make excuses, and blame others. God does not exempt himself from our lack of responsibility, even to the death of his own Son.

Still, in the midst of our ignorance and stupidity, God breathes his life (inspiration), using even the evil that we commit for his own good purposes, for our own salvation.
In spite of our fallen humanity, God calls to progress in goodness. God calls us to grow in understanding of the good that he offers to us.
 
But if you want to get to the boned of it

Genocide is bad because it is the deprivation of life based solely in a characterisitoc that one can not control. Such as membership in a tribe
Well, no. That is not the “boned” [bottom?] of it. The bottom of it depends completely upon what life is, what it means to be and why it is wrong to deprive someone of existence. It also depends upon what permits that life to be to begin with and why, or whether, it would be wrong for the Author of life, itself, to authorize revoking it from any one particular entity or many.

Humans do not grant life to each other. In fact, we have very little to no understanding of what coming into existence involves, metaphysically speaking. Membership in a tribe makes no difference in terms of what makes life valuable or the conditions under which the right to life might be revoked and by whom.

Granted, we do not have the right to take each other’s lives without just cause, but that does not mean God has no such right. Nor does it mean he cannot instrumentally revoke life or lives by whatever means he ordains - be those means be natural or by command issued to some other agent.

If, for example, angels – or some other order of being higher than human – exist, would it be wrong, say, for God to issue an order to an “Angel of Death” to take the life of a pernicious human being at his discretion? Why not? Is self-defense, then, also not permissible to humans?

Isn’t self-defense a matter of just action which has been deemed just and pre-authorized in principle by the goodness and justice of God to be permitted. Ergo, killing in self-defense is just as much a command or standing order of God as “Thou shalt not kill.”

There are so many inconsistencies with your view that it begins to fall apart very quickly when even lightly prodded.
 
Thoughts from a different perspective than your anthropocentric, man-is-the-measure-of-all-things and centre of the universe view…
Assume that, as some versions of the argument from evil put it, God is a “morally perfect being”. Assume also that suffering exists in the world. To make the second fact tell against the first, we need to articulate a code of divine ethics, and locate prohibitions against suffering somewhere on it.
This is sensible and logical when comparing an omnipotent, theoretical, and distant god to it’s creatures, but it fails terribly in Christianity, due to the Incarnation.
 
This is sensible and logical when comparing an omnipotent, theoretical, and distant god to it’s creatures, but it fails terribly in Christianity, due to the Incarnation.
Good point.

What about prior to the Incarnation? Which is when the OT passages took place.

What difference did the Incarnation make?

I think that is the crucial consideration. God became man so that man might become God (theosis) by sharing in the eternal life of God.

That is what makes all the difference in the world.
 
I can’t even begin to address the problem with this counter example – it would take far more time and energy than I have at the moment, along with many pages of posts, so I’ll leave you to your illusion.
Finally! We agree! I too believe that you can’t begin to address A problem with this counter-example. Its one thing to insist on playing silly hypothetical games, its another thing to kick over the chess board and cease playing when the game dosen’t go your way
 
Granted, we do not have the right to take each other’s lives without just cause, but that does not mean God has no such right.
Your Christian god has no such right.

Even if he existed, he would have no such right. Where would such a right come from? From merely being the creator?
 
I’m curious why you think God is a baby-killer. Is it because of what you have read in Scripture?

God is the good. God cannot act immorally.
I argue that the christian god is not good. That he certainly acted immorally.

My proof is that he killed innocent children. He even created a divinely inspired book for you guys so you could see how ruthless he was. This is not a being worth revering
 
Good point.

What about prior to the Incarnation? Which is when the OT passages took place.

What difference did the Incarnation make?

I think that is the crucial consideration. God became man so that man might become God (theosis) by sharing in the eternal life of God.

That is what makes all the difference in the world.
Christ is the second person of the Trinity, eternal (outside of time) God who, in the fullness of time, took on flesh. His personhood is divine, taking on human nature as well.
As the OT happened, Christ was. Christ wasn’t created because the OT happened, Christ was, all the while we were committing evil in the OT. In the fullness of time God came to meet us where we are.
I. WHY DID THE WORD BECOME FLESH?
456 With the Nicene Creed, we answer by confessing: “For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit, he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.”
457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:70
Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?71
458 The Word became flesh so that thus we might know God’s love: "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."72 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."73

459 The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness(very important in the context of this thread): …

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”(you can see where the blade of grass equation does not quite work):78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

I think it’s key that man does not advance in holiness by grasping to be God, God is “move(d) to descend to human nature”. He comes to meet us.
God condescends to be human, not a blade of grass.
 
Finally! We agree! I too believe that you can’t begin to address A problem with this counter-example. Its one thing to insist on playing silly hypothetical games, its another thing to kick over the chess board and cease playing when the game dosen’t go your way
Except that “kicking over the chess board” is NOT what I did, now was it? My move was more akin to abandoning a strategy because I realized it would have been pointless to pursue it and not worth the cost. Notice, I finished the relevant post with an alternative point and added another full post. Does that appear like “cease playing” to you?

It isn’t so much that it didn’t “go my way” as I would have had to spend an inordinate amount of energy bringing you up to speed while foreseeing that you wouldn’t accept the point in any case so it wouldn’t be worth the effort. That is not to concede you are correct, merely that you appear unwilling to concede a point even if it were clearly established. No point in :banghead: doing injury to myself.
 
Except that “kicking over the chess board” is NOT what I did, now was it? My move was more akin to abandoning a strategy because I realized it would have been pointless to pursue it and not worth the cost. Notice, I finished the relevant post with an alternative point and added another full post. Does that appear like “cease playing” to you?

It isn’t so much that it didn’t “go my way” as I would have had to spend an inordinate amount of energy bringing you up to speed while foreseeing that you wouldn’t accept the point in any case so it wouldn’t be worth the effort. That is not to concede you are correct, merely that you appear unwilling to concede a point even if it were clearly established. No point in :banghead: doing injury to myself.
You asked for an example, you even chided that one could not exist. Can’t blame me for getting hurt that you decided to pack up your ball and go home because you encountered a legit example. Why did you ask for one in the first place if you weren’t interested in debating the merits of it.

Point is, genocide serves no special useful purpose as say any other immoral act, such as rape
 
I argue that the christian god is not good. That he certainly acted immorally.

My proof is that he killed innocent children. He even created a divinely inspired book for you guys so you could see how ruthless he was. This is not a being worth revering
So as you use the divinely inspired book to accuse God of evil, you read it with fundamentalists, who read it the exact same way. That’s your right to believe and read it that way, but it’s not how the Catholic Church reads Scripture.

Inspiration does not mean that everything detailed in Scripture is rigidly factual.

Assuming you have a family, have you ever compared stories of your childhood with siblings? I’d be curious if those family stories all contain the same exact details, and if they all remember the personalities involved in the same light.

Isn’t that part of the buzz of recounting these events, comparing the different perceptions of what happened? People will recount slightly or wildly divergent accounts of what happened, they will also propose different points of view as to what happened, and even ascribe different motivations to the people involved in your story. It may even come to the point where good and evil are involved, and people will make judgments about what a person believed. Still, there may be a consensus on some enduring truth that is valid, even despite the differing accounts:
“Grandma sure loved her grandkids” or “dad sure loved to build furniture” whatever…

Scripture is not much different from this.

Inspired Truth is not dependent on rigid and literalist readings of the words.
 
I argue that the christian god is not good. That he certainly acted immorally.

My proof is that he killed innocent children. He even created a divinely inspired book for you guys so you could see how ruthless he was. This is not a being worth revering
Here’s the problem Birdpreacher: A proof that God killed children is not a proof that it is always wrong for God to kill children. We are speaking of the Creator and Author of all life, here. We are not speaking of Joe down the street.

If God has the wherewithal to create all that exists including children from nothing, then he has complete authority and power to take life at will and give life at will. In fact, that God, in a very real sense, brings about by his providential will the death of every human being who has ever lived means that your charge of genocide doesn’t stop with Amalekite children, but includes every child who has ever died prematurely along with every other human who has ever died for any reason whatsoever. If you wish to be scandalized then at least be scandalized to the full extent that is consistent with your logic.

Death is death BP. Whether an innocent child dies by the sword, by disease, by being hit by a truck or by drowning, every instance is under the control of Almighty God. Why not hold him equally accountable for all those deaths, as well, then? The same Scriptures that report on his command on the Amalekites report that death came to Adam and all mankind by the judgement and command of God. Why use cheap binoculars to focus on one particular instance of death when the entire landscape is an open field of death?

You will die, as well, by the way. Do you understand what death is and why it occurs? Do you really understand?

For all you know, death could be more like a metamorphosis, taking on an entirely new and glorified body – given the proper disposition and God’s timing. This is, in fact, the claim of Christianity – the resurrection of the body as an historical event and promise.

You don’t know – that is the thing. BUT God does KNOW. He knows perfectly, completely and finally what death means. AND is entirely in control of its effects.

For all you know, God could have mercifully torn open the chrysalis-like sac of each of those Amalekite children using the swords of the Israelites, just as the crucified Christ rose from death in a glorified body. For all you know you could be completely, miserably and incomprehensibly wrong in your judgement. The thing is, for a proof to actually be a PROOF, you would have to KNOW – with certainty – much, much more than you presume to know.

You are ready to condemn God based upon your myopic view of things, but not ready to admit that if God is indeed God, an infinitely expansive range of possibilities exists for why God would issue any command he does. Possibilities that do not limit him to the constraints of your logic or your imagination.

If you wish to put God on trial, you will need to first have him provide HIS reasons for why HE did what HE did, not prejudice proceedings determined by your narrow, limited and biased perspective. Unfortunately, you will have to wait on God’s time, just as you had to wait on his time to come into existence.

Given that you have no clue what death even entails, I would suggest you show a tad more restraint and humility making judgements on matters you know very little about. You may find that eating crow is not much to your liking, nor made more appetizing by heavy doses of presumption and hubris. You don’t know as much as you think you do.
 
Your Christian god has no such right.

Even if he existed, he would have no such right. Where would such a right come from? From merely being the creator?
And your “authority” to know or conclude that God has no such right comes from where?
 
But if you want to get to the boned of it

Genocide is bad because it is the deprivation of life based solely in a characterisitoc that one can not control. Such as membership in a tribe
I would reply at length, but I see that Peter has already beaten me to it.

Suffice to say that, according to your definition, ‘death’ in general is ‘genocide’ – after all, humans cannot control the characteristic that they are ‘human’, and death deprives humans of life. Therefore, any human death is genocide?

No, that doesn’t make any sense; that would mean genocide is nothing at all. Neither, then, does it prove anything about God. So, BP, I’ll just sit back and watch you try to escape out of the logical hole you’ve dug yourself into in your discussion with Peter. 😉
 
If they are not fiction and the slaughter did happened, who gave Moses and Joshua the command to slaughter?
Well, there are numerous possibilities here, eric.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of sinful pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it this way. And the inspired author interpreted it differently.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it this way. And the inspired author limned this metaphorical slaughter in the text.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of sinful pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it incorrectly. And the inspired author wrote about their incorrect enactment of their understanding.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of sinful pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it this way. And the inspired author interpreted it differently.
 
Well, there are numerous possibilities here, eric.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of sinful pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it this way. And the inspired author interpreted it differently.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it this way. And the inspired author limned this metaphorical slaughter in the text.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of sinful pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it incorrectly. And the inspired author wrote about their incorrect enactment of their understanding.

God may have given the command, but it was a command to remove all traces of sinful pagan life within the tribe. And Moses and Joshua understood it this way. And the inspired author interpreted it differently.
It’s easy to see the difficulty in determining precisely, “what did God say, how did he say it, when did he say it, and how did the Israelites hear it”?

The following needs to be considered:
These events were not recorded word for word by the Holy Spirit on the spot. Someone with more specific knowledge that I can expand on the time frames involved.

Suffice it to say that the events recorded are historical, in that they record deeds that happened as remembered. But they are also part of what we might call “folklore” or tradition… the story of a people shrouded in mystery due to the passage of time, the perspective of the human beings involved, and the chaos of daily life. As Pope Benedict says:
biblical revelation is deeply rooted in history
Life is messy, and the recording of historical events is not exempt from the messiness of human life.
Yet still,
107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75
110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. “For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression.”
There are other possibilities than those addressed by PR above.

The Israelites lived a life, and they passed down their history. All cultures do it.

It is not uncommon for the chaotic tales of war to be interpreted after the fact. In fact, if a tape recorder had been on the scene, the story might be nonsensical and without meaning. War is traumatic and the meaning and purpose of it can elude us. It can seem senseless. A people must go about making sense of the events, and eventually that sense resides in finding God’s will in all of it.

“Why are we oppressed? Where was God when we went to war with the Amalekites? How could God allow this to happen? Why did our warriors kill every last human being? Surely God has a will and a reason-able purpose for this slaughter that happened.”

Like any other culture, the Israelites are looking for a larger reason and purpose, they are looking for the hand of God in their lives.

These histories are not written on the spot. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they are recorded “down the road” a considerable distance, and convey the truth that God wishes to convey, to make sense of the events of life for all times and peoples to come, not just for that instant in history.

God can do that as he wills.
It’s interesting that God’s prerogative is extended to all kinds of things, but not to Inspiration, as He sees fit.
 
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