Steve Ray and Protestant tradition

[GerardPaul]

Steve Ray well known Catholic convert said,“Catholics read the Bible through the lens of Tradition. Protestants read through the lens of their own-new and unbiblical traditions.” How can Protestants say the Catholic Church is full of error because of all our “Traditions of Men” yet have unbiblical traditions. Don’t they fallow the “Bible only” that can’t lead to unbiblical views can it?

 

[Harpazo]

Steve Ray well known Catholic convert said,“Catholics read the Bible through the lens of Tradition. Protestants read through the lens of their own-new and unbiblical traditions.” How can Protestants say the Catholic Church is full of error because of all our “Traditions of Men” yet have unbiblical traditions. Don’t they fallow the “Bible only” that can’t lead to unbiblical views can it?

No one Protestant tradition follows the Bible verbatim as they would have us believe. Many times they see the splinter in our eye, yet not the plank in their own.

Following the Bible alone, Sola Scriptura, is unbiblical. So already right off the back, they are being hypocritical in their dogmatic views. However, we have to remember, that Protestants are still for the most part well-intentioned, even if they don’t show it. I’m overjoyed at times to see their love for souls.

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[Cat]

I was evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism.

Most evangelicals believe in some variation of the phrase “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things love.”

Until recently*, evangelicals have not objected to human traditions as long as they don’t contradict the Bible. Evangelicals have many wonderful traditions, including sword drills, Rally Days, Founders Days, covered dish suppers, Christmas pageants, cantatas, memorial plaques, etc. (I’m just listing some of the traditions that I grew up with in the Conference Baptist denomination.)

What evangelicals object to is that Catholics consider Tradition (capital T) at the same level of authority as the Bible.

Evangelicals do not accept any authority other than the Bible.

*In recent years, many evangelicals are rejecting ANY traditions of men, even good and wholesome traditions like certain hymns and customs. My husband read an article by a pastor who is proud that in five years, NONE of his church services have EVER been the same. Every week he does something different–a play, a puppet show, a new song, etc. He believes that it is wrong to practice any kind of man-made tradition. (Not sure what he thinks about things like Christmas!)

I am very glad to have left the evangelical church for this and many other reasons. I often felt that the church I grew up in was being dragged away and replaced with some kind of really cheesy theatrical production. There is one church in our city that had “tryouts” for the tots’ Christmas pageant last year, and only accepted tots who had some kind of artistic experience, such as kindermusik or appearance in a play, etc. :banghead:

 

[Zenas]

Protestants claim to follow the Bible, and most sincerely believe they do. However, there are many passages they completely ignore and when they are squarely confronted by these passages, they will say:
(1) In light of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, it can’t really mean what it seems to say,
OR
(2) They will come up with an obscure and improbable explanation that could not possibly be the truth of the passage in question,
OR
(3) Sometimes they will claim the passage did not appear in the original manuscripts.

Yet, they certainly do have their own traditions. For example, most Baptists abhor the use of beverage alcohol, even to the point of serving grape juice at communion. With equal zeal, they advocate the practice of tithing. They have communion services on a monthly or quarterly basis. They always stand to sing the Doxology. All other songs may be sung either sitting or standing.
They never sit on the front row–it is always vacant. I could go on but it is easy to see that these practices have little or no scriptural basis. All of them arise mostly out of tradition.

 

[fulloftruth]

Yeah one thing they always do is when they are at a road block and have been shown to benot following scripture they say "well the plain things are the main things and the main things are the plain things, and the essentials for salvation are right there for all to see.

Yet many Protestants do not believe baptism is really necessary for salvation, that it is symbolic and not a real cleansing. I would think that to disagree on that is an essential for salvation.

James White, a professional anti Catholic, (whose sister has converted to RC,) when confronted with the notion that if the Catholic Church has difficulty staying true to Scripture than the problem is doubled for the protestants because who is a protestant, what is a protestant, who speaks for the protestants. He claimed that the Protestants are in a unique position because they demand such freedom of interpretation, yet you see no prescription for that kind of church in the new testament or old for that matter. The chair of Moses, however evil the one sitting in it was, had binding authority until the Death , Resurection, Acension, and Pentecost. And in Christs church, it is said you are able to go to it and be excommunicated for not listening to it. Where is that Church in Protestant ville, How could that Church be an invisible association of believers. An association of believers that can’t agree on what time it is, ormuchmore give an authoritative interpretation that God will Bind in Heaven.

Protestants claim that because Christ taught and corrected the scribes and the pharises using old testament scriptures, that that somehow was the model he wanted the Apostles to follow.

I would say that in one sense they may be right,and I have never seen a church teaching that was not substantiated by Scripture, but Christ , who was given all Authority on heaven and Earth, gave a share in that Authority to the Apostles in union with Peter the bearer of the keys of the kingdom, and that if they were to fulfill the great commission, the sSpirit would have to stay with those that they ordained by laying on of hands or by miraculous exception like Paul, so that every generation might be able to get a faithful explanation of what Christ meant when he said unless you eat my flesh and drink my Blood you have no life in you. I mean if you get that one wrong according to Christ you are dead. How more serious could having the right interpretation be. If they do not listen to the Church they are excommunicated. These are not trivial things.

They also say that only the Scriptures are God Breathed. Yet God Breathed on Them in the Great Commission and said what ever you bind and loose and whose sins you forgive and retain etc… I do not think that the God Breathing on them part is insignificant. The Church is also God Breathed just like the Scriptures she wrote and protected and gathered ans sifted and handed on un touched for 2000 years

 

[MarcoPolo]

My husband read an article by a pastor who is proud that in five years, NONE of his church services have EVER been the same. Every week he does something different–a play, a puppet show, a new song, etc. He believes that it is wrong to practice any kind of man-made tradition. (Not sure what he thinks about things like Christmas!)

So the pastor created his own non-Biblical tradition of avoiding repeat services? Isn’t that a grand irony…

 

[GerardPaul]

I want to thank the first five to reply to my thread. It is just what I wanted to know. I have been in commuication with a Baptist for about four years and he keeps telling me about the traditions of men in the Catholic Church that are in error. When I bring up how he rejects parts of scripture or how close Catholics fallow a part(like John 6)he doesn’t even reply. The communication has been one sided because I have spent most of our time answering his questions and doesn’t answer mine.

 

[Delraek]

I want to thank the first five to reply to my thread. It is just what I wanted to know. I have been in commuication with a Baptist for about four years and he keeps telling me about the traditions of men in the Catholic Church that are in error. When I bring up how he rejects parts of scripture or how close Catholics fallow a part(like John 6)he doesn’t even reply. The communication has been one sided because I have spent most of our time answering his questions and doesn’t answer mine.

Hi GerardPaul,

I have a friend who is Baptist, also, and she does the exact same thing! She makes accusations about the Church which I respond to every time (although I doubt she reads my answers considering she repeats the same accusations), but pretty much ignores any questions I ask her that she obviously has no way of answering!

 

[Cat]

GerardPaul, I hate to say this, but it may take something horrible and drastic to convince your friend that sola Scriptura is a false doctrine. This doctrine is so ingrained into his brain and soul that he believes any suggestion to the contrary is of the devil; therefore, YOU are speaking Satanic lies to him, at least, from his point of view. He is praying even now that you will be led out of your slavery to Satan.

I don’t think apologetics will help. If you present apologetic arguments, he will present his own apologetic arguments, and you will be at impasse.

I hope that he doesn’t need a horrible, drastic occurrence to knock the sola Scriptura indoctrination out of his soul, but I fear it. Pray for him, that he will experience the drastic event if that’s what it takes, and that he will survive the event with his body and soul intact. Such an event might be his salvation, if he is led to the True Church.

Let me tell you the horrible, drastic event that happened to me and my family.

In 2002, we were kicked out of our Evangelical Free Church, with cruelty and capriciousness, by men and women leaders who claimed that the Bible was their justification for treating our family, including our daughters, so uncharitably.

I absolutely KNEW that the church leaders had not made any attempt to follow the procedure for conflict resolution between Christians that Jesus clearly laid down in Matthew 18. In other words, they weren’t following the Bible, they were making up their own interpretation of the Bible, and it was wrong.

As we were running out of that church following the tribunal that declared us anathema, I could clearly visualize the doctrine of sola Scriptura shearing around me. It was like glass shattering and collapsing. I could actually hear the cracking and then the crumbling noises that glass makes when it shatters and tumbles in shards to the ground. The noise was very loud and scary, and I could see an actual Bible, a glass Bible, falling apart all around me.

The vision was quite terrifying.

I absolutely KNEW at that point that sola Scriptura was a devilish doctrine foisted upon Christians by Satan.

God never meant for individuals to interpret the Bible for themselves. Such a presumptuous act leads to misinterpretations that lead to heinous actions like those that were committed by that EFree church against me and my family.

For almost a year, I refused to read the Bible by myself. I was afraid that if leaders of the church, ordained pastors, could so horribly twist the Scriptures and justify cruel actions, then what would I, a layperson, do to the Holy Scriptures?

A year after our ousting, I learned about the Adoration Chapel at the Catholic Church. I took my Bible and asked Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament to please teach me the truth and not allow me to fall into falsehood. He answered my prayer. I KNOW I can trust Jesus to guide me correctly. To this day, I usually read my Bible in the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Like I said, I hope it doesn’t take something like this to lead your friend out of his error, but I fear for him.

 

[GerardPaul]

Hi GerardPaul,

I have a friend who is Baptist, also, and she does the exact same thing! She makes accusations about the Church which I respond to every time (although I doubt she reads my answers considering she repeats the same accusations), but pretty much ignores any questions I ask her that she obviously has no way of answering!

I know this is only my side of it but the view that I am unreasonable and twist the scriptures to say anything I want to believe has been used by him. The last thing he said was “Truth,you can’t hadle the Truth!” He has projected on me what he does to me. I give him reasonable and scriptural information about Catholic teaching and it is unacceptable to him. So I replied to him “Truth,you fear and reject the Truth!”

 

[Hellisreal]

Whats the tradition of Rapture?
Whats the tradition of “praise bands” and appluase for them?
Whats the tradition for condoning ABC?

I think the list is hundreds of points long, and its all made up stuff.

 

[Delraek]

I know this is only my side of it but the view that I am unreasonable and twist the scriptures to say anything I want to believe has been used by him. The last thing he said was “Truth,you can’t hadle the Truth!” He has projected on me what he does to me. I give him reasonable and scriptural information about Catholic teaching and it is unacceptable to him. So I replied to him “Truth,you fear and reject the Truth!”

So, what was his response to that?

If you are able to get him to listen to you, please let me know how you did it! My baptist friend is an ex-catholic who never knew her faith, so I wonder if that makes her even more anti-Catholic?? Just a thought…

 

[richardwy]

I should have much to say on this. But everytime I begin, I erase what I wrote.

I spent the years from 16 to 27 (1973 to 1984) in the charismatic – home bible study – local church – praise and worship thing in southern and northern Californa.

I graduated from the church sponsored Bible college too.

Today, I just shake my head. When I speak on the phone or write with those who were there. We always talk about those days. About those who were in charge and just the whole thing.

It’s as if we are trying to figure it out. What went wrong. There’s a consensus of being duped. Of, “how could we have been so gullible?”

It’s hard to put all this into words. It’s very easy to follow people rather than Christ. And you dont’ know your doing it until it’s too late.

You never even stop to consider the Catholic Church. Someone says “ritual,” and your mind goes “ritual bad,” “not ritual good.” Reflex. No thought.

Someone says “tradition.” Click: “tradition bad,” “not tradition good.”

I really think part of the mess is due to a version of Christianity that folks buy because it panders to our wounded human nature. Full of “you can find God’s will for YOU.” Very self-centered. It is such an easy sell. It gets so much exactly backwards.

I’ve more to say, but cannot find a way to say it.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I don’t know if this counts as Protestant tradition, but it was lousy exegesis nevertheless:

This morning I listened to Protestant Pastor Greg Laurie talking about various things…and one of the things that struck me was that he said Michael the Archangel is the only Archangel. Why? Because it says he’s THE Archangel, singular!!

I emailed him and said if it had said Michael the Banker, would he then conclude there are no other bankers???

 

[Delraek]

I should have much to say on this. But everytime I begin, I erase what I wrote.

I spent the years from 16 to 27 (1973 to 1984) in the charismatic – home bible study – local church – praise and worship thing in southern and northern Californa.

I graduated from the church sponsored Bible college too.

Today, I just shake my head. When I speak on the phone or write with those who were there. We always talk about those days. About those who were in charge and just the whole thing.

It’s as if we are trying to figure it out. What went wrong. There’s a consensus of being duped. Of, “how could we have been so gullible?”

It’s hard to put all this into words. It’s very easy to follow people rather than Christ. And you dont’ know your doing it until it’s too late.

You never even stop to consider the Catholic Church. Someone says “ritual,” and your mind goes “ritual bad,” “not ritual good.” Reflex. No thought.

Someone says “tradition.” Click: “tradition bad,” “not tradition good.”

I really think part of the mess is due to a version of Christianity that folks buy because it panders to our wounded human nature. Full of “you can find God’s will for YOU.” Very self-centered. It is such an easy sell. It gets so much exactly backwards.

I’ve more to say, but cannot find a way to say it.

Since I’ve been Catholic all my life, I’m pretty ignorant of what you went thru - is it at all possible that even tho we, as human beings, need God to complete us, we associate a relationship with God as something we have to “feel”? Like if we’re not enjoying the “worship” it can’t be pleasing to God?? Does that make any sense?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Since I’ve been Catholic all my life, I’m pretty ignorant of what you went thru - is it at all possible that even tho we, as human beings, need God to complete us, we associate a relationship with God as something we have to “feel”? Like if we’re not enjoying the “worship” it can’t be pleasing to God?? Does that make any sense?

I’d say yes, too many people base truth on their personal feelings or whether or not it is boring to them.
Similar thread here…especially check out post #3.

 

[richardwy]

we associate a relationship with God as something we have to “feel”?

Like if we’re not enjoying the “worship” it can’t be pleasing to God??

Does that make any sense?

D,

Bunches of folks would say “yes,” to your 1st question. Me? What I feel or do not feel has no bearing on God, truth, the facts, etc. And, I respond to him too. Actions, thoughts, emotions, professions, etc. Sometimes separately, sometimes mingled.

Someone will comeup with a much better comparision, but I was thinking of Pluto, or Indiana, or the Grand Canyon. What I do, think, say, believe, register emotionally does not alter, move, shape, etc Pluto, Indiana, or the Grand Canyon. They exist. They really are there. Same with God. And I also respond to him on more than one level. Big drawback on my comparision is those things are created and God is the creator.

I think noun “relationship” can boil down to “who’s the boss,” or better yet “who’s going to be the boss,” or even better (?), “to whom do I want to give myself to unreservedly?”

It’s hard to find the right words to speak of much of this. I much prefer literal language, but I fall into metaphor.

So right on that 2nd sentence.

Makes all the sense in the world to me.

I’ve quite a bit to say on what you touched upon. It’ll probably leak out over time.

It’s tough to know where to grab the yarn.