Steve Wohlberg

[Writer]

I have a Protestant friend who is inclined to believe the teachings of a Steve Wohlberg ( see thetruthabouthell.org/ ) regarding the nature of hell. In short, he is teaching that those condemned to hell (more accurately, those who condemned themselves to hell) simply wink-out of existence. I have given many Scriptural references in opposition to this view as well as some other reasoning, but are there any other good resources to go to on this topic? If you have any suggestions, I’d appreciate it. Who is Steve Wohlberg anyway? Thank you!

 

[FCEGM]

I have a Protestant friend who is inclined to believe the teachings of a Steve Wohlberg ( see thetruthabouthell.org/ ) regarding the nature of hell. In short, he is teaching that those condemned to hell (more accurately, those who condemned themselves to hell) simply wink-out of existence. I have given many Scriptural references in opposition to this view as well as some other reasoning, but are there any other good resources to go to on this topic? If you have any suggestions, I’d appreciate it. Who is Steve Wohlberg anyway? Thank you!

I’ve never heard of Steve Wohlberg, but here are some resources for you from THIS ROCK:

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9809chap.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0710btb.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705convsb.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0110frs.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9108frs.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0703clas.asp

 

[Writer]

I’ve never heard of Steve Wohlberg, but here are some resources for you from THIS ROCK:

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9809chap.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0710btb.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705convsb.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0110frs.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9108frs.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0703clas.asp

Thank you. The third one down is particularly helpful. The fellow my friend is listening to is a Seventh Day Adventist.

 

[FCEGM]

Thank you. The third one down is particularly helpful. The fellow my friend is listening to is a Seventh Day Adventist.

I was happy to help, Writer. Since your friend is listening to a Seventh Day Adventist, you will no doubt have to help him with more than the doctrine on hell. God bless you in your efforts!

 

[scripturewisdom]

I have a Protestant friend who is inclined to believe the teachings of a Steve Wohlberg ( see thetruthabouthell.org/ ) regarding the nature of hell. In short, he is teaching that those condemned to hell (more accurately, those who condemned themselves to hell) simply wink-out of existence. I have given many Scriptural references in opposition to this view as well as some other reasoning, but are there any other good resources to go to on this topic? If you have any suggestions, I’d appreciate it. Who is Steve Wohlberg anyway? Thank you!

Dear Writer,
I think either your friend or you have misunderstood the explanation of this teaching. I have also listened to this sermon by Pastor Wohlberg and that is not what he is saying. What he is saying is that the translation of “eternal burning” or “burning forever and ever” is misunderstood. There are several examples of this in Scripture. One is found in Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after unnatural lust, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today. The cities and their inhabitants burned until there was not one speck left to burn. Nothing but ashes and rock remain. Nothing could “rekindle” the flames. Satan and the wicked will burn in like manner. Once Satan and the wicked are completely and totally burned up in the lake of fire, there will never, ever be any more sin or death or pain.
There are a couple of other important points that come with this understanding.
One is the importance of truly understanding the character of our God. He is not a God that would want Himself to or want us to endure the cries and screams of torture coming from the lake of fire “forever and ever”. It would be hell for Him and for us as well. That would not be the desires of our loving Creator. Neither we nor God would have any peace if that were the case.
The other important aspect of this understanding is that if the wicked burned forever and ever without ceasing then they would in effect have eternal life. That’s not scriptural. “The wages of sin are eternal death”, not eternal living torture.
Please don’t dismiss Biblical truth just because it is not what you are used to hearing. Please study it out.
I beleive this is possibly the single-most error that keeps the lost away from God. People cannot understand a God who is suppose to be total love having anything to do with something as unthinkable as eternal torture toward anyone or anything.
No, the Holy Scriptures are clear that the wicked burn until there is nothing left to burn. Then death and sin and suffering will be no more. Peace and victory over sin and death will be complete.
God is truly good and perfect. May He bless you and guide you as you continue to study and draw closer to HIM.

 

[Nita]

The other important aspect of this understanding is that if the wicked burned forever and ever without ceasing then they would in effect have eternal life. That’s not scriptural.

You’re making the mistake of equating eternal existence with eternal life. Everyone will “exist” eternally; but not in the same state. Some in the state of eternal life (love, joy, peace, etc in heaven with God) and some in the state of eternal death (anguish, suffering, in hell, rejecting the presence of God). That is Scriptural (Mt. 25:31-46)

“The wages of sin are eternal death”, not eternal living torture.
Please don’t dismiss Biblical truth just because it is not what you are used to hearing. Please study it out.
I beleive this is possibly the single-most error that keeps the lost away from God. People cannot understand a God who is suppose to be total love having anything to do with something as unthinkable as eternal torture toward anyone or anything.
.

Scripture is clear that there is eternal fire, eternal condemnation. Eternal means “no end”
References: Mt. 25:46 eternal punishment.
2 Thess 2:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord… (destruction goes on eternally)
We cannot change or deny what Scripture says just because we don’t like it.

God does not desire that we suffer eternally in hell. He tells us of it’s reality in hopes that we will change our lives so that we never have to go there. He wants us to love ourselves enough to care about where we spend eternity.

.

No, the Holy Scriptures are clear that the wicked burn until there is nothing left to burn. Then death and sin and suffering will be no more. Peace and victory over sin and death will be complete.

Would you please reference the Scripture passage/s that are “clear” about stating this - that the eternally damned burn only until there is nothing left to burn. There is the sense in which that is true - that is, the damned rebel eternally and so the “burning” is eternal.

God is truly good and perfect. May He bless you and guide you as you continue to study and draw closer to HIM

Nita

 

[joseph_nally]

This has been an interesting thread because I’ve been truly seeking some answers on this topic. I’m glad I’ve come across this. I have a few more questions about some of the things that have been brought up so far. First of all ‘Scripturewisdom’ didn’t share many bible text which make it hard for me to really see his points. Also:

You’re making the mistake of equating eternal existence with eternal life. Everyone will “exist” eternally; but not in the same state. Some in the state of eternal life (love, joy, peace, etc in heaven with God) and some in the state of eternal death (anguish, suffering, in hell, rejecting the presence of God). That is Scriptural (Mt. 25:31-46)

So in the Matthew passage we are to see that eternal death actually = being alive and “(anguish, suffering, in hell, rejecting the presence of God)” forever? Verse 46 seems to make a contrast between life and a punishment that is everlasting. And I wonder if there’s a reason it says punishment instead of punishing. Everlasting punishment would be different from everlasting punishing. Punishment sounds more finite.

Scripture is clear that there is eternal fire, eternal condemnation. Eternal means “no end”
References: Mt. 25:46 eternal punishment.
2 Thess 2:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord… (destruction goes on eternally)
We cannot change or deny what Scripture says just because we don’t like it.

I’ve been trying to find the phrase 'eternal condemnation in the bible, could you give a scripture reference for it.? Also, 2 Thes 2:9 doesn’t say anything about destruction or exclusion. perhaps you were eluding to verse 8 that says: ‘And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:’ My dictionary says:
consume |kənˈsoōm|
verb trans. ]
eat, drink, or ingest (food or drink) : people consume a good deal of sugar in drinks.
• buy (goods or services).
• use up (a resource) : these machines consume 5 percent of the natural gas in the U.S.
• (esp. of a fire) completely destroy : the fire spread rapidly, consuming many homes.
• (usu. be consumed) (of a feeling) absorb all of the attention and energy of (someone) : Carolyn was consumed with guilt | [as adj. ] ( consuming) a consuming passion.
Again the verbiage in 2 Thes 2:8 makes the destruction and consumption appear very finite.

God does not desire that we suffer eternally in hell. He tells us of it’s reality in hopes that we will change our lives so that we never have to go there. He wants us to love ourselves enough to care about where we spend eternity.

That sounds very good. Ezekiel 18:32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.” And in the previously mentioned verse Matthew 25:41 it looks to me that hell was only prepared for the devil and his angels. That God did not and does not intend for any ‘people’ to be there. That makes sense.

Would you please reference the Scripture passage/s that are “clear” about stating this - that the eternally damned burn only until there is nothing left to burn. There is the sense in which that is true - that is, the damned rebel eternally and so the “burning” is eternal.

Yes. This is a question I would want to ask as well. Are there scriptural references for the statements. I actually came across something that might add to this topic. Malachi 4:1-3 “1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Also, if I compare Jude 7 with 2 Pet 2:6 I end up seeing that ‘suffering the vengeance of eternal fire’ leads to ‘ashes’ and an ‘overthrow’. My dictionary says:
overthrow
verb |ˌōvərˈθrō| ( past -threw; past part. -thrown) trans. ]
1 remove forcibly from power : military coups which had attempted to overthrow the king.
• put an end to (something), typically by the use of force or violence : their subversive activities are calculated to overthrow parliamentary democracy.
• archaic knock or throw to the ground : one who is already prostrate cannot be overthrown.

I hope that there will be some replies to this thread although i see that it’s old. I would seriously like some thoughts / answers. thank you very much

-joseph

 

[scripturewisdom]

hi, thank you for your discussion.

You’re making the mistake of equating eternal existence with eternal life. Everyone will “exist” eternally; but not in the same state. Some in the state of eternal life (love, joy, peace, etc in heaven with God) and some in the state of eternal death (anguish, suffering, in hell, rejecting the presence of God). That is Scriptural (Mt. 25:31-46)

first, there is no way you can “exist” and without being alive and feeling what is happening to you. if you believe there is a “another state” of existence other than life and death, please provide me scripture proving that.
second, the Bible translations use the word “hell” 55 times and for many different reasons. only 12 of those mean the burning “hell” of the white throne judgement. for instance, if you are “rejecting the presence of God” you are essentially in hell on earth. your eyes are not opened. you do not live in the presence of God and that is a type of hell. As for your scripture, you are paraphrasing according to your own understanding. the verses you refer to (MT. 25: 46) simply say: “and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”. the words “everlasting punishment” mean they will never be reconsidered or reconciled and the “judgement” is everlasting, not the punishment. it’s like a sentence of life in prison without parol. but when the prisoner"s life ends, that’s as far as it goes. the decision and the punishment were everlasting, until the prisoner was “no more”, until he died. the “everlasting” or “eternal” fire will go on as long as God decided for each individual. once it overtakes them and they die from it, that is all there is of them. “the dead know nothing”. they are dead, they are ashes upon which the new earth shall be built.

Scripture is clear that there is eternal fire, eternal condemnation. Eternal means “no end”
References: Mt. 25:46 eternal punishment.
2 Thess 2:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord… (destruction goes on eternally)
We cannot change or deny what Scripture says just because we don’t like it.

i would never deny TRUTH because i don’t like it nor would i ever intentionally change what Scripture says, no matter what it is, no matter what “the church” says. if you really want to know the truth you have to approach it with that open-mind and an open-heart attitude and that is all i’m interested in doing.

however, that aside, eternal distruction is the subject. let’s examine that. let’s say you have a house.
a great fire comes along and burns it to the ground. it is completely destroyed. can the destruction go on any further? there’s nothing but ashes left. a great wind comes and blows the ashes across the land and none can be found. then the rain comes and washes the scattered ashes into the ground. your house is gone, destroyed eternally. that house ceases to exist and that “ceasing to exist” is “eternal”.

let me give you another example. a couple gets married. in their vows they pledge their eternal love and devotion to one another. they are sincere and deeply in love. they are a very nice couple. they have many people who think they are wonderful human beings and people love them. they are married for 40 yrs. but they are agnostics. they never desired to learn or accept Jesus as their savior. one tragic day the woman dies. where does her eternal love go? does it go with her to hell? can one have eternal love in hell?

God does not desire that we suffer eternally in hell. He tells us of it’s reality in hopes that we will change our lives so that we never have to go there. He wants us to love ourselves enough to care about where we spend eternity.

that sounds kind of nice, but if we believe that God tells us of hell “in hopes that we will change our lives”, we are basing your beliefs on fear. i do not believe that God tells us that for that reason. i believe He tells us that just because it is a fact of life. i don’t believe God counts it for any reason to accept Him. we accept Christ because we learn who He is and what He did and does for us daily. we are saved because we “love Him and keep His commandments”. we are suppose to “love ourselves as He loves us”, but that in and of itself in no way will save us. there are lots of people who love themselves way too much if you know what i mean and they want nothing to do with God. i mean, if you say you love God because you don’t want to burn in hell, that isn’t gonna work for ya.

Would you please reference the Scripture passage/s that are “clear” about stating this - that the eternally damned burn only until there is nothing left to burn. There is the sense in which that is true - that is, the damned rebel eternally and so the “burning” is eternal.

Happily. here are a few.
Malachi 4:1, 3
Isaiah 47:14
Matthew 10:28
Ezekiel 18:20
Psalm 37:10 and onward specifically 10&20
Revelation 21: 1, 4
also, please read Rev. 20

blessings to all

 

[scripturewisdom]

This has been an interesting thread because I’ve been truly seeking some answers on this topic. I’m glad I’ve come across this. I have a few more questions about some of the things that have been brought up so far. First of all ‘Scripturewisdom’ didn’t share many bible text which make it hard for me to really see his points. Also:

hi joseph, something happened to my computer and i was unable to continue this thread and over time forgot about it. so, hopefully we can pick up where we left off almost a year ago. i apologize for not quoting scripture to support my comments.

Yes. This is a question I would want to ask as well. Are there scriptural references for the statements. I actually came across something that might add to this topic. Malachi 4:1-3 “1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Also, if I compare Jude 7 with 2 Pet 2:6 I end up seeing that ‘suffering the vengeance of eternal fire’ leads to ‘ashes’ and an ‘overthrow’. My dictionary says:
overthrow
verb |ˌōvərˈθrō| ( past -threw; past part. -thrown) trans. ]
1 remove forcibly from power : military coups which had attempted to overthrow the king.
• put an end to (something), typically by the use of force or violence : their subversive activities are calculated to overthrow parliamentary democracy.
• archaic knock or throw to the ground : one who is already prostrate cannot be overthrown.

I hope that there will be some replies to this thread although i see that it’s old. I would seriously like some thoughts / answers. thank you very much

-joseph

the scripture you quote here is one i would and have quoted as well. it clearly states that the wicked shall be burned UP and be NO MORE.

“all that do wickedly, shall be stubble” (what is stubble? is it an existing, aware being?) - of course not.

“the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”- no more life for them. nothing to regroup or reroot and grow. no branch (effect on others that shall grow) no sign of their existence, not even in our memory. all we will remember is that “God loved us so much that he gave His only Son so that we could live”.

“And ye shall tread down the wicked; **for they shall be ashes **under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.” eternal nothingness. Ashes!! and the Lord says, “in the day that I shall do this…” Nothing will be seen or heard from them ever again. the term eternal and everlasting is the extent of their distruction like the house i mentioned earlier. it means the “permanence” of God’s judgement not the continuing of His judgement. Once God brings His judgement, it is done. It is Finished! and He can do that in an instant. His time is different than ours. His fire is hotter than anything we have ever known. The wicked are eternally gone which is their punishment. God doesn’t brag about that. He does not look forward to it. He doesn’t want to continually make HIS point! He has no need nor desire for that.
How long each wicked individual feels the pain of hellfire is up to God’s judgement of the extent of their wickedness and please know that this will all happen on the same day. this is the second death. God will raise the wicked and judge them and they will be punished according to their deeds. (Rev. 20)
Satan and his angels and the false prophets will be first to go in the Lake of Fire and will suffer the longest, then the leaders of wickedness such as King Herod and Ceasar and Hitler; all the philosophers who lead people way from God, then down the line according their wickedness. How long they feel the pain of death is equal to the extent of their wicked deeds.
That is just and fair and up to God.
Thank the Lord for that.

the whole subject is a heavy and difficult one but it is one we need to understand. if we want to understand, God will show us all in due time

blessings

 

[Nita]

Happily. here are a few.

I’ve printed out the verses you referenced; they do not attest to the annihilation of people. I’m assuming by “annihilation”, you mean the total cessation of existence (body and soul) of a human person. Death does not mean annihilation. For example, we all die - but our body continues to exist (in a state of death). It does not disappear/dissolve into nothing! So also does our soul continue to exist.
Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day comes, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.
4:3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 47:14(I added the preceeding verses since it’s important to know the context)
47:11 But evil shall come upon you, …; disaster shall fall upon you, which you will not be able to expiate; and ruin shall come on you suddenly,… 47:12 Stand fast in your enchantments and your many sorceries, with which you have labored from your youth; perhaps you may be able to succeed,perhaps you may inspire terror. 47:13 You are wearied with your many counsels; let them stand forth and save you, those who divide the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who at the new moons predict 47:14 Behold, they are like stubble, the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before!
This passage has nothing to do with our final judgement by God. It is about the folly of putting our trust in sorcery and occult leaders to save us in times of trouble when they are not even able to save themselves.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
“Destroy” does not equal “annihilation”. A lot of things get “destroyed”, but they still exist (in the state of destruction) - they are not annihilated (nothing remaining).

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Again, death does not mean annihilation.
I forgot to check your profile before beginning this response so don’t know if you are Catholic or not. In Catholicism, our souls are spiritually/supernaturally “dead” when we are born (because of original sin). In Baptism we receive the supernatural life of God into our souls - we are “born anew/from above/again” (cf John 3:1-21).

**Psalm 37:10 and onward specifically 10&20 ** 37:9 For the wicked shall be cut off; but those who wait for the LORD shall possess the land. Yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look well at his place, he will not be there. But the meek shall possess the land, and delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
37:20 But the wicked perish; the enemies of the LORD are like the glory of the pastures, they vanish – like smoke they vanish away.
In giving this an application where land=heaven (not an earthly land/kingdom), the wicked do vanish; they are not present. They do perish/die. But they are not annihilated.

Revelation 21: 1, 4 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; 21:3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; 21:4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."
This is a description of heaven, not hell. As the passage assures us, there is no “death” in heaven. The passage says nothing about what is present in hell.

**also, please read Rev. 20 **20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 20:15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I guess the first thing I’d note is that this passage shows that the term “dead” cannot be equated with total annihilation since the “dead” (those in state of first death) in the sea and Death and Hades are called to face judgement. After which they are thrown into the “lake of fire” - the place of second and eternal death.

 

[Nita]

… As for your scripture, **you are paraphrasing **according to your own understanding. the verses you refer to (MT. 25: 46) simply say: “and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”. the words “everlasting punishment” mean they will never be reconsidered or reconciled and the “judgement” is everlasting, not the punishment.

I cited the Matthew passage as a reference for eternal punishment - and that is exactly (and not a paraphrase of) what it says:
*Mt 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." *
(By the way, the word is “eternal” for both “punishment” and for “life”. The same Greek word is used in both places.)

Are you trying to say that in this Matthew passage Jesus doesn’t really mean “eternal punishment”, but instead only means His judgement is eternal. In other words, “eternal” should apply only to His judgement, and not to the length of punishment.(Punishment that ends is not eternal. Eternal means “without end”.)
We know His final judgement is eternal - for both those who enter heaven and those who enter hell.

It seems this is a doctrine where we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

God bless,
Nita

 

[Shlomey]

Dear Writer,
I think either your friend or you have misunderstood the explanation of this teaching. I have also listened to this sermon by Pastor Wohlberg and that is not what he is saying. What he is saying is that the translation of “eternal burning” or “burning forever and ever” is misunderstood. There are several examples of this in Scripture. One is found in Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after unnatural lust, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today. The cities and their inhabitants burned until there was not one speck left to burn. Nothing but ashes and rock remain. Nothing could “rekindle” the flames. Satan and the wicked will burn in like manner. Once Satan and the wicked are completely and totally burned up in the lake of fire, there will never, ever be any more sin or death or pain.
There are a couple of other important points that come with this understanding.
One is the importance of truly understanding the character of our God. He is not a God that would want Himself to or want us to endure the cries and screams of torture coming from the lake of fire “forever and ever”. It would be hell for Him and for us as well. That would not be the desires of our loving Creator. Neither we nor God would have any peace if that were the case.
The other important aspect of this understanding is that if the wicked burned forever and ever without ceasing then they would in effect have eternal life. That’s not scriptural. “The wages of sin are eternal death”, not eternal living torture.
Please don’t dismiss Biblical truth just because it is not what you are used to hearing. Please study it out.
I beleive this is possibly the single-most error that keeps the lost away from God. People cannot understand a God who is suppose to be total love having anything to do with something as unthinkable as eternal torture toward anyone or anything.
No, the Holy Scriptures are clear that the wicked burn until there is nothing left to burn. Then death and sin and suffering will be no more. Peace and victory over sin and death will be complete.
God is truly good and perfect. May He bless you and guide you as you continue to study and draw closer to HIM.

Mark 9:
43 Where there worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

45 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

47 Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

Apocalypse 13:11 And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast, and his image, and whoever receiveth the character of his name.

 

[scripturewisdom]

thank you for your reply. God is always working on our hearts and minds to understand.
consider your quote word for word.
“the worm dieth not”. the worm eats rotting remains. once there are no remains to feed on, the worm moves on to it’s next feast. nothing kills it, it just has no more to eat.
“fire is not extinguished”. look up the word extinguished. it means “put out”. so the fire is not put out by anyone. it burns until there is nothing left to burn. here’s a little analogy. light a match. hold it in your hand as it burns. in a few seconds it will get too hot to hold so you must put it down. if you do not “extinguish” it, it will burn until there is nothing left but ashes.

blessings

 

[scripturewisdom]

I cited the Matthew passage as a reference for eternal punishment - and that is exactly (and not a paraphrase of) what it says:
Mt 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(By the way, the word is “eternal” for both “punishment” and for “life”. The same Greek word is used in both places.)

Are you trying to say that in this Matthew passage Jesus doesn’t really mean “eternal punishment”, but instead only means His judgement is eternal. In other words, “eternal” should apply only to His judgement, and not to the length of punishment.(Punishment that ends is not eternal. Eternal means “without end”.)
We know His final judgement is eternal - for both those who enter heaven and those who enter hell.

It seems this is a doctrine where we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

God bless,
Nita

again, you have to be aware, which would mean living, in order to be eternally in torture. the punishment that is eternal is death.

 

[Nita]

again, you have to be aware, which would mean living, in order to be eternally in torture. the punishment that is eternal is death.

Of course. (Assuming you are using living here in the restricted sense of existing - not in the spiritual usage where “life” means existing in God’s grace and “dead” refers to being “dead in sin”.)

And this awareness resides above all in the soul. When physical death occurs (soul separates from the body), and the body is buried, what do you think happens to the soul? Are you saying that altho the material elements of the body remain, God destroys and annihilates the soul? (Or will do it after He temporarily reunites it with the body at the time of the general resurrection and final judgement?)

 

[Ads]

Hi

Just looking to download some of Steve Wohlbergs stuff from the net and came across this thred. A lot scripture has already been read about being burned forever, and i have read it all before, but the scripture that realy made my mind up was this one -

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of Jehovah shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; in smoke shall they consume away.
They comsume away gone out of existance.
Hell translated simply means the grave — Rev 20:14 And death and Hades(meaning Grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
So after the bad people are consumed away Death and the Grave/Hell will be no more.

When it says in the Bible that something burns forever it means until its all burnt up, but the affects of the fire are forever.
Or unquenchable fire, meaning it can’t be put out until its finished doing its job.
It says that Sodom and Gomorrah burnt forever, but they are not burning today.

How about Jonah? he said he was in the fishs belly for ever but it was only three days.
Jon 2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me FOR EVER: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Once people understand that the Body + breath/Spirit = a living soul and that the soul is not a seperate thing then the body (we are a living soul), then the understandind of Hell is made a bit simpler.

 

[Ads]

Hi

Just in addition to my last post –

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

So tell me, after reading this, where is hell now???

 

[Nita]

Hi

Just in addition to my last post –

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

So tell me, after reading this, where is hell now???

Same place St. John said it was just a few verses prior to the ones you posted –
20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the **lake of fire **and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.
Is there some particular reason why it’s important to you to believe hell is not eternal?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi Nita!

There is also the sense of eternal (which God is) that has nothing to do with time at all. That is, it is “all at once”; I think it was Frank Sheed (Theology and Sanity) where I first saw that concept. I am not sure what to make of it, but I heard once on CA radio, that someone suggested the punishment is “all at once” and in proportion to the evil doing – rather than a temporally eternal punishment which would seem to exceed the sin a man is possible of committing. (as Job puts it, what am I that “I” could hurt you?).

St. Paul says, we do not know what the body sown in corruption will be like at the resurrection.

But I think we do know from scripture that the damned shall rise – eg: be given up by the sea (the pit/tartarus/etc.) and that since they will not be given a glorified body – one is left to assume that they remain in a body of corruption.

I would humbly suggest that the scriptures indicating the full corruption of the body may not, in fact, be unallowed to apply to the bodies of the damned. As the serpent who is cursed is said to “eat the dust” (which man returns to) – I think it possible that the corrupt are also incorperated in the body of devil (in exactly what manner – I haven’t pondered…). Again, as the soul is unable to form the body after death, this too is a punishment – that the devil would have power over the body for eternity to do with as he pleases even if he pleases dust – and all the damned are posessed by a master.

In one passage above, the “treading of the enemies ashes” (paraphrase) would seem to indicate that the enemy’s body (even after figurative consumption by fire) – remains as ahes to be abused even in its corrupted state.

I am also aware – that the most common part of the body associated with permanence – (eg: the bones) – were occasionally taken and burned under extreme heat to deny an “evil” person a burial. And yet, even the damned will rise – and in the bones of Ezekiel lies a hope for the righteous.

I think there is a bit of mysery here, though; God says that evil and good can not dwell together – nothing unclean can enter heaven – the body of Christ – and yet God is not able to seperate himself totally from creation without truly annihilating it (ex nihlo – ergo nihlo) nor is anything which enters the body from without able to render it unclean. These images, all having spheres of correctness, leave one to wonder how to systematically differentiate between the image and the meaning.

In any event, the spirit is not the body itself – to be extinguished because the body is corrupted. Since transgression has its seat in the will – I find it difficult to imagine in what way the images apply to that which is immaterial.

eg: in the Bosom of Abraham – before the resurrection – I would presume that the “rich” man had no body to be tormented with fire – so I am left to wonder whether the parable were meant as a vision of the future (not indicated) or as (more likely) an indication that the soul too suffers an immaterial “fire”.

He was speaking to Jews/Hebrews and to the ideas they held in that time when using Jewish parables.

I enjoyed the thread. Pax Christi.

 

[Nita]

Hi Huiou,
Good to see you back. Seems we’re both a little less active here these days.

But I think we do know from scripture that the damned shall rise – eg: be given up by the sea (the pit/tartarus/etc.) and that since they will not be given a glorified body – one is left to assume that they remain in a body of corruption.

I would humbly suggest that the scriptures indicating the full corruption of the body may not, in fact, be unallowed to apply to the bodies of the damned. As the serpent who is cursed is said to “eat the dust” (which man returns to) – I think it possible that the corrupt are also incorperated in the body of devil (in exactly what manner – I haven’t pondered…). Again, as the soul is unable to form the body after death, this too is a punishment – that the devil would have power over the body for eternity to do with as he pleases even if he pleases dust – and all the damned are posessed by a master.

In one passage above, the “treading of the enemies ashes” (paraphrase) would seem to indicate that the enemy’s body (even after figurative consumption by fire) – remains as ahes to be abused even in its corrupted state.

I am also aware – that the most common part of the body associated with permanence – (eg: the bones) – were occasionally taken and burned under extreme heat to deny an “evil” person a burial. And yet, even the damned will rise – and in the bones of Ezekiel lies a hope for the righteous…

It is difficult to imagine the bodily condition of the damned. They also are resurrected, and altho their body will not be glorified, it is immortal and will never again be separated from its soul. That separation is what constitutes the first death. (And of course even in the first death the mortal body does not cease to exist - it just exists (every atom of it) in a different state, an inanimate state.

I think there is a bit of mysery here, though; God says that evil and good can not dwell together – nothing unclean can enter heaven – the body of Christ – and yet God is not able to seperate himself totally from creation without truly annihilating it (ex nihlo – ergo nihlo) nor is anything which enters the body from without able to render it unclean. These images, all having spheres of correctness, leave one to wonder how to systematically differentiate between the image and the meaning.

Post #17 by ADS gives a beautiful description of heaven and how those present will not experience any contact with the unclean.
But there is lots of mystery.
Your mention of “the body of Christ” above is interesting. I’m not sure of your meaning. It made me think of how it is our union with Jesus, our abiding in Him, that is the means of our salvation and our entry into heaven. Was that what you meant? It brings to mind also that the condemned have chosen not to be united to Our Lord, to remain separated from Him.

In any event, the spirit is not the body itself – to be extinguished because the body is corrupted. Since transgression has its seat in the will – I find it difficult to imagine in what way the images apply to that which is immaterial.

eg: in the Bosom of Abraham – before the resurrection – I would presume that the “rich” man had no body to be tormented with fire – so I am left to wonder whether the parable were meant as a vision of the future (not indicated) or as (more likely) an indication that the soul too suffers an immaterial “fire”.

It’s interesting to ponder the experience of pain. It is actually our souls that “know” and experience the pain of an injury - altho the injury itself occurs in the flesh.
And there is the curious situation where something can be experienced even tho there is no body part there to correspond to the experience. For example, amputees who experience itching in a limb that is no longer part of their body.

And there is the opposite situation - where physical “violence” occurs to the body but there is no experience of pain. For example, surgery when one is anesthetized; cuts are inflicted on the body but person doesn’t experience any pain.
And there are those people who never experience pain; a very dangerous condition.

So even our present state is rather mysterious at times.

God bless,
Nita