Steve Wohlberg

[Godislove2]

When I give a punishment for my daughter it is everlasting if the punishment doesn’t end. If I give her time out in her room then the punishment is temporary. Her actions did not have everlasting consequence. If I take a toy away and throw it in the trash as a punishment then it is an everlasting punishment. It doesn’t matter if its eternal hell or eternal death, either one is an everlasting punishment. It can’t end or be taken back. I don’t have my Bible with me, but I know that there is a verse in isaiah that says “who can dwell with everlasting burnings” and then it goes on to say that the righteous can. there is another verse in the NT that says “our God is a consuming fire”. Are you sure that its not God who IS the everlasting fire to those who are unrighteous?

 

[igornekrasov]

When God created man and commanded him to not eat from the tree wich in the midst of the garden, because the moment he he eat it he will die.I understand that when he ate from this tree he died spiritly(wich is the enternal life which God gave it to him the moment he created man) , when curse fell on earth and then God said to man for out of the dust u were taken, for dust you are and to dust you shall retun. I believe that man on earth has nothing in him self that can live more then his flesh (soul, spirit man does not have, only God gives Spirit to man and then man can live forever ) that is what God said for dust you are and to dust you shall retun. And when u read revelation we see there that curse has been removed !! And like Jesus said in order for you to get to kingdom of God you must be born again! Which means born from God himself (must be back to life that adam had befor curse.

 

[Ads]

In John 3:16 it gives us only 2 options, Perish or eternal life. No burning in Hell forever.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Cachonga]

I read some of the discussion and thought I might throw in a few items for consideration.

I would begin by reminding you of the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). First I will point out that this is a true story, not a parable (Jesus used a proper name with Lazarus, something that He NEVER does with a parable).

Second, we notice that the rich man was dead, but he was alive in hell. He was also aware of what was happening around him, and in torment in the flames. The rich man is undoubtedly still there today.

Next, I will point to Rev 20:4-6, which shows that after Satan is imprisoned (which will last 1000 years), there is a judgment (“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”) for the martyrs. Notice, verse 5-6 says, “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (emphasis mine). After the 1000 years, Satan is released, there is a final clash, and then comes the Great White Throne Judgment where everyone that did not pass through the first judgment (martyrs) will be raised. What bodies will we have when we stand before God? These will be resurrected bodies. Those who are cast into the lake of fire MAY have their resurrected body burned up (I doubt it), but there is still the immortal soul, which (as we have noted in the case of the rich man) is conscious and feels pain.

God’s Word is true, and when He says, “And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast, and his image, and whoever receiveth the character of his name.” (Rev 14:11), then I believe it!

Hope this helps!

 

[DavidChrist]

Why would you want to go to Heaven?! It must be so boring there. Plus, you cannot challenge God-- what he says, goes.

But going to hell? Hell, that’s where I want to go after I die because at least there, there is a possibility that I can overthrow the devil and take over hell and turn it into a heaven also. But I would give the people who go there a second chance-- that is, unlike heaven, everything in my hell would have to be earned. People would have to work in unity and work for the better good and respect everybody else’s beliefs and faiths. Those who go against my law would be put in prisons though not tortured. I would model my hell after the great United States of America.

I’ll make that everyone in the world would want to come to my hell because it grants Freedom. God can have his Heaven. But he’s invited too. Hell, I’ll even waive a visa for him!

 

[ALISANDRO]

You’re making the mistake of equating eternal existence with eternal life. Everyone will “exist” eternally; but not in the same state. Some in the state of eternal life (love, joy, peace, etc in heaven with God) and some in the state of eternal death (anguish, suffering, in hell, rejecting the presence of God). That is Scriptural (Mt. 25:31-46)

Scripture is clear that there is eternal fire, eternal condemnation. Eternal means “no end”
References: Mt. 25:46 eternal punishment.
2 Thess 2:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord… (destruction goes on eternally)
We cannot change or deny what Scripture says just because we don’t like it.

God does not desire that we suffer eternally in hell. He tells us of it’s reality in hopes that we will change our lives so that we never have to go there. He wants us to love ourselves enough to care about where we spend eternity.

.

Would you please reference the Scripture passage/s that are “clear” about stating this - that the eternally damned burn only until there is nothing left to burn. There is the sense in which that is true - that is, the damned rebel eternally and so the “burning” is eternal.



Nita

 

[ALISANDRO]

As a new member I mean to tread carefully in this ‘Heaven, Hell & Eternity’ debate minefield by making just a few observations. Our Heavenly Father, being the author of justice and mercy would surely not punish a sinner in ‘time’ with a punishment to last for all Eternity. Since our Saviour died for the sins of the whole world it follows that the only thing that is not covered by His sacrifice is the sinners’ non - acceptance of that sacrifice.It would not, therefore, be in line with the image of a compassionate, and merciful God to condemn that person to eternal torture.
God Bless!

 

[Cristian_B]

Scripture is clear that there is eternal fire, eternal condemnation. Eternal means “no end”
References: Mt. 25:46 eternal punishment.
2 Thess 2:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord… (destruction goes on eternally)
We cannot change or deny what Scripture says just because we don’t like it.

Eternal punishment, not eternal punishing.

The punishment is death. It is eternal punishment therefore it is eternal death. The punishment (death) will never be taken away, therefore you will remain death forever.

Also, if eternal torment in hellfire is the punishment for sin, then we aren’t saved, since Jesus wouldn’t have payed the price for our sin, which would be eternal suffering in Hell. In order for the price of our sins to be payed He’d still have to be suffering in flames in Hell today.

 

[Cristian_B]

I read some of the discussion and thought I might throw in a few items for consideration.

I would begin by reminding you of the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). First I will point out that this is a true story, not a parable (Jesus used a proper name with Lazarus, something that He NEVER does with a parable).

It is a parable and a prophecy. Read the following page.

tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm

If you read it, you saw that it was a prophecy and parable and the topic was not even about the life after death, but the Jews and Gentiles’ fate.

Second, we notice that the rich man was dead, but he was alive in hell. He was also aware of what was happening around him, and in torment in the flames. The rich man is undoubtedly still there today.

Read the article below.

tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm

Next, I will point to Rev 20:4-6, which shows that after Satan is imprisoned (which will last 1000 years), there is a judgment (“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”) for the martyrs. Notice, verse 5-6 says, “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (emphasis mine). After the 1000 years, Satan is released, there is a final clash, and then comes the Great White Throne Judgment where everyone that did not pass through the first judgment (martyrs) will be raised. What bodies will we have when we stand before God? These will be resurrected bodies. Those who are cast into the lake of fire MAY have their resurrected body burned up (I doubt it), but there is still the immortal soul, which (as we have noted in the case of the rich man) is conscious and feels pain.

As you saw above, that parable is not a real story.

God’s Word is true, and when He says, “And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast, and his image, and whoever receiveth the character of his name.” (Rev 14:11), then I believe it!

Revelation is a symbolic book. It mentions the beast and it’s image. We know the beast and it’s image is a symbol, so the whole verse is symbolic.

Also, man is mortal, not immortal.

Hope this helps!

 

[me_again]

The Lord Jesus Christ presented the concept of “life after the death of the mortal body” in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Jesus presented this teaching because He knows the truth and He knows how to properly interpret the scriptures. If the concept of eternal life after death were of demonic origin, then Jesus would not have taught it.

 

[me_again]

As a new member I mean to tread carefully in this ‘Heaven, Hell & Eternity’ debate minefield by making just a few observations. Our Heavenly Father, being the author of justice and mercy would surely not punish a sinner in ‘time’ with a punishment to last for all Eternity. Since our Saviour died for the sins of the whole world it follows that the only thing that is not covered by His sacrifice is the sinners’ non - acceptance of that sacrifice.It would not, therefore, be in line with the image of a compassionate, and merciful God to condemn that person to eternal torture.
God Bless!

A SeventhDay Adventist once told me, “If God would eternally punish someone who is sent to hell, then I want nothing to do with Him.”

God is the Creator and we are the created. He is the Potter and we are the clay. Who are we to tell Him how to do things? Who are we to judge Him? As the Lord said to Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?”

 

[Cristian_B]

The Lord Jesus Christ presented the concept of “life after the death of the mortal body” in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Jesus presented this teaching because He knows the truth and He knows how to properly interpret the scriptures. If the concept of eternal life after death were of demonic origin, then Jesus would not have taught it.

It’s a parable. And I know it’s a parable because the rest of the Bible teaches the contrary.

Also, you don’t interpret the Bible in the light of one parable but the parable in the light of the rest of the Bible.

The rich man represents the Jews. Lazarus represents Gentiles. The subject is not even about an afterlife but it’s a prophecy about the Jews and Gentiles.

 

[ALISANDRO]

Of course. (Assuming you are using living here in the restricted sense of existing - not in the spiritual usage where “life” means existing in God’s grace and “dead” refers to being “dead in sin”.)

And this awareness resides above all in the soul. When physical death occurs (soul separates from the body), and the body is buried, what do you think happens to the soul? Are you saying that altho the material elements of the body remain, God destroys and annihilates the soul? (Or will do it after He temporarily reunites it with the body at the time of the general resurrection and final judgement?)

Hi Nita, you’ll notice straight away that I am signed in as ALISANDRO: Religion: Christian.
I hope to indicate by that statement that, as in a verse of a hymn that I wrote, “The harvest time is almost here, the LORD will send His workers out. The time is past for doubt and fear, Get ready for that mighty shout,” there really is so little time for these inter-denominational debates. We need as “Christians” to concentrate on winning back lapsed Christians of all denominations to Christ, and to spread the Gospel to as many of the remainder as we can. It really is counter productive to frighten people with talk of “Hell-fire & Brimstone”. They are not our enemies, they are just poor souls that have lost their way.They are what I like call, POTENTIAL CHRISTIANS, and as I have written in another hymn, “Salvation never was denied to those for whom our Saviour died. I want to meet my precious Lord who died for me” Christian regards, ALISANDRO.