Sticky Wedding Situation

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JoyIsLikeRain

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So I’ve just been asked to stand up for a wedding; bride and groom are baptized Catholic but not practicing. I really felt flattered they asked me; we’ve been friends for years and they’re the most supportive and loyal friends I’ve ever had.

They’re having it at a Jesuit-run country retreat center and using the chapel. However, they want to use a public official for the vows and such; no religious ceremony.

I’ve talked to them about Catholic wedding SERVICES (much shorter, less complicated, and possibly even more reverent that a nuptial mass). They said no.

What can I do about the chapel situation? I’m just going to be an usher, so I’m going to have more freedom than the average groomsman.

Do you think I should contact the center the day before and see if they can remove the Blessed Sacrament from the chapel?

I’ve heard I shouldn’t even be standing witness to this, but I also believe in the power of conversion; even if it takes years.
 
JoyIsLikeRain said:
So I’ve just been asked to stand up for a wedding; bride and groom are baptized Catholic but not practicing. I really felt flattered they asked me; we’ve been friends for years and they’re the most supportive and loyal friends I’ve ever had.

They’re having it at a Jesuit-run country retreat center and using the chapel. However, they want to use a public official for the vows and such; no religious ceremony.

I’ve talked to them about Catholic wedding SERVICES (much shorter, less complicated, and possibly even more reverent that a nuptial mass). They said no.

What can I do about the chapel situation? I’m just going to be an usher, so I’m going to have more freedom than the average groomsman.

Do you think I should contact the center the day before and see if they can remove the Blessed Sacrament from the chapel?

I’ve heard I shouldn’t even be standing witness to this, but I also believe in the power of conversion; even if it takes years.
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Back when I was in the Pius V group I refused a very good friend of mines invitation to be in her wedding. I told her flatly that it was not legit so I could not participate. It was a difficult and regrettable choice. I do like your point in requesting the blessed sacrement be removed since it isn’t a Catholic wedding.
 
Do you think I should contact the center the day before and see if they can remove the Blessed Sacrament from the chapel?

No. I bet the Jesuits have it under control.
 
This is an interesting situation. I would have thought that since the center and chapel are run by a religious order, they would only allow valid marriages to take place there, i.e. have bride and groom provide letters of permission from pastors to marry there, documentation of marriage prep, etc.

Do they rent the chapel out to anyone?
 
anp1215 said:
This is an interesting situation.** I would have thought that since the center and chapel are run by a religious order, they would only allow valid marriages to take place there, i.e. have bride and groom provide letters of permission from pastors to marry there, documentation of marriage prep, etc. **

Do they rent the chapel out to anyone?
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It’s the Jesuits.

😉

P.S. To the OP, I would not participate in this wedding. It’s not Catholic, and thus, for the 2 of them, not valid.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
It’s the Jesuits.

😉

P.S. To the OP, I would not participate in this wedding. It’s not Catholic, and thus, for the 2 of them, not valid.
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That was my initial concern, BUT I’ve been viewing these things these days with different eyes.

It’s easier to run away from anything that’s not “valid,” and in this case, not making use of the Church’s gifts.

However, that’s our world in 2012, and people who are truly good at heart (yet not that religious) who want a plain, quiet wedding are not so different as the many showcase “Catholic” weddings where the couple cohabitated beforehand.

God’s is still there, either through my prayers or at the retreat center. He’ll judge the situation in the way He deems best, not I.

(However, if this was a whimsical “themed” wedding, I’d conveniently be on vacation)
 
JoyIsLikeRain said:
That was my initial concern, BUT I’ve been viewing these things these days with different eyes.

It’s easier to run away from anything that’s not “valid,” and in this case, not making use of the Church’s gifts.

However, that’s our world in 2012, and people who are truly good at heart (yet not that religious) who want a plain, quiet wedding are not so different as the many showcase “Catholic” weddings where the couple cohabitated beforehand.

God’s is still there, either through my prayers or at the retreat center. He’ll judge the situation in the way He deems best, not I.

(However, if this was a whimsical “themed” wedding, I’d conveniently be on vacation)
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I do not see this as “running away,” but about being honest with your friends about what they are going to do in front of God and witnesses. I would speak the truth to them, that in the eyes of the Church, their wedding is not going to be valid, and that they could easily make it valid by standing in front of a priest. They want to be in a chapel, but they don’t want religion? Maybe it’s just a pretty setting to them. I would still tell them that being a Catholic means more than that to me, and that as their Catholic friend, I am obligated to love them enough to be honest. They probably weren’t well catechized and may not even know that what they are doing is not considered marriage by the Church.

Well, you asked, and I gave you my opinion. Obviously you are free to do whatever you want, as long as you aren’t causing scandal by attending.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
I do not see this as “running away,” but about being honest with your friends about what they are going to do in front of God and witnesses. I would speak the truth to them, that in the eyes of the Church, their wedding is not going to be valid, and that they could easily make it valid by standing in front of a priest. They want to be in a chapel, but they don’t want religion? Maybe it’s just a pretty setting to them. I would still tell them that being a Catholic means more than that to me, and that as their Catholic friend, I am obligated to love them enough to be honest. They probably weren’t well catechized and may not even know that what they are doing is not considered marriage by the Church.

Well, you asked, and I gave you my opinion. Obviously you are free to do whatever you want, as long as you aren’t causing scandal by attending.
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I don’t know what you mean by “cause scandal” (I’ll be wearing a suit).

But you did write some good things to share with them.
Sadly, they’re not well-versed in catechism (their parents are and have had this talk with them before, to no avail). I actually think they might know about church validity, but are not concerned about it.

In any case, it’s a step up from cohabitation.
 
I am not going to say what is the most appropriate thing to do. However, if I were in that situation I would not go to the wedding. If it were in a city hall in front of a JP I would probably go but Catholics simulating a marriage in a Catholic chapel are just mocking my faith and I do not spend time with people that choose to mock my faith. If I were really close to them, then probably I would tell them the reasons of my choice while trying to avoid an ugly an argument.
 
JoyIsLikeRain said:
I don’t know what you mean by “cause scandal” (I’ll be wearing a suit).

But you did write some good things to share with them.
Sadly, they’re not well-versed in catechism (their parents are and have had this talk with them before, to no avail). I actually think they might know about church validity, but are not concerned about it.

In any case, it’s a step up from cohabitation.
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I agree with you there. Both on the step up from shacking up, and that they do not sound concerned about it now. Since I married in front of a judge, I’ve been there, done that. Although we didn’t bother with a chapel, either, we just went to City Hall and went into the judge’s chambers.

😊

No, scandal means that as Catholics, we shouldn’t act as if we approve of others’ sins. Turning up at a wedding where one or both of the parties have been divorced and have not had their previous marriage annulled, for example. Or a gay “marriage” ceremony. Since people are watching us to evaluate what the Church stands for, creating scandal is acting as though things like this don’t matter to the Church. I’m not sure I’m explaining it well, but someone else will probably help me out.

😊
 
Cristiano said:
I am not going to say what is the most appropriate thing to do. However, if I were in that situation I would not go to the wedding. If it were in a city hall in front of a JP I would probably go but Catholics simulating a marriage in a Catholic chapel are just mocking my faith and I do not spend time with people that choose to mock my faith. If I were really close to them, then probably I would tell them the reasons of my choice while trying to avoid an ugly an argument.
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This.

And while it is good to want to evangelize your friends, not standing up for what the Catholic Church teaches and participate in an invalid wedding of two Catholics is just the opposite. How can you evangelize the true teachings of the Catholic faith when you disregard those very teachings? As much as this may be the “modern” world, our society of anything goes needs more people to do the right thing and stand by lessons of the Catholic faith, the lessons that are thousands of years old and never go out of style.
 
Well, thank you everyone for the advice so far. I’m going to call the Jesuits of the retreat center and speak with them about this ceremony beforehand.

One one hand, I’m just helping old ladies to their seats. Yet, on the other hand, we’re all providing witness. The groom has practicing Catholic family members, and I’m sure the bride does, too.

Another sticky wedding situation: I know of several devout Catholic couples who got married before a judge, moved in with each other, and had a nuptial mass several months (or even a year) later. Can someone clarify this in the eyes of the church for me?

In November, I’ll be going to my first wedding (of peers) where the couple didn’t cohabitate with each other.
 
JoyIsLikeRain said:
Another sticky wedding situation: I know of several devout Catholic couples who got married before a judge, moved in with each other, and had a nuptial mass several months (or even a year) later. Can someone clarify this in the eyes of the church for me?
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The Church does not consider them married until they have the Church ceremony.
 
When I first read the heading to this thread, I didn’t know what to expect–perhaps badly made icing on the cake. But I agree, this is a sticky situation.

Are you certain that the wedding is to take place in the chapel? It does not make sense to me that a Jesuit retreat centre would allow the use of its sacred space for a civil, or, for that matter, any non-Catholic wedding.

Are you certain that all the parties involved are aware of what is intended?

There are Catholic retreat centres, usually monasteries with shrinking populations of religious, that have secular accommodations; for instance having a hotel or guest house on their grounds. (The ‘Inn at St. John’s’ in Plymouth, Michigan is such a place.)In such case, I could imagine that a ballroom, or similar facility would be leased-out to all comers, but a chapel is something else. Perhaps the Jesuits have turned over the management of such a facility to a non-religious corporation–a hotel management company.

From the above’s website:

St. John Chapel is a Roman Catholic Chapel celebrating Roman Catholic marriages and follows the Provincial Guidelines for Marriage Preparation (1999) adopted by the Bishops of Michigan. The Chapel wedding staff will guide you from your initial contact through your wedding day, ensuring that planning your special day is an enjoyable process. Please find additional information about holding your ceremony at St. John Chapel below.

Scheduling Your Wedding & Chapel Fees
Registration Form
Priest Permission Letter
Florist Guidelines
Photographer/Videographer Guidelines
 
Nope, it’s Jesuit. And it used to be a convent belonging to the Sisters of the Resurrection

(PS, next time, copy and paste the link only. Not the actual text.)
 
Since both parties are Catholic, unless they have received a dispensation from Catholic form from the diocese, the marriage will be automatically invalid. It is not a “step up from shacking up” but rather an apparent Jesuit sanction of fornication. This will be a cause for public scandal for the Jesuits as well as for the couple.
 
Cavaille-Coll said:
Since both parties are Catholic, unless they have received a dispensation from Catholic form from the diocese, the marriage will be automatically invalid. It is not a “step up from shacking up” but rather an apparent Jesuit sanction of fornication. This will be a cause for public scandal for the Jesuits as well as for the couple.
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yup
 
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