Sticky wedding situation

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China123

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I put this in this forum because it deals with family/friend issues. If it is the incorrect forum, please excuse me and please move to appropriate.

My family is attending a wedding next week of some close family friends. Neither is Catholic and in fact the groom is athiest/agnostic. Bride’s mother and step-dad are Catholic converts but they did not raise their children Catholic as they converted after children were grown.

My friend (bride’s mother) called me this morning to go over some details. My daughter is the flower girl in the wedding so there were final things to discuss. She mentioned and wanted to warn me that the minister that was presiding was from the church of the Nazarene and was somewhat anti-Catholic. She was warned by the groom that the minister was going to make a remark about marriage not being a sacrament and would probably say some anti-Catholic things. He wanted to make sure she (bride’s mother) knew what the Nazaren church was all about? Not sure what that coment meant.

I guess since the ceremony is in a hotel and not in a church I can let the sacramental marriage comment go but if this preacher starts proclaiming anti-Catholic things I am not sure what I should do. Normally I might just walk out but since my daughter is in the wedding party I won’t be able to do that. This pastor knows that a lot attending are Catholic so quite possibly this is why he is doing it. My husband has said he will walk out but I am not sure if that is the best way to do it. It might be a good evangilization moment at the reception but maybe that isn’t even a correct place.

I am a cradle Catholic so anti-Catholic comments are fairly normal to hear and I can distance myself from the problem. This is somewhat different as my daughter is in the wedding party and has an obligation and I don’t want to lose friends over it but I do not want my Catholic faith bashed either. I mean, this guy has a captive audience and under kindness for the bride people will tolerate it.

Any advice from you learned people would be so appreciated. I have already started praying for the minister that he will not follow through on his bashing discourse.
 
If the bride and groom know they will have several Catholic guests, why wouldn’t they tell their minister to be respectful of this?
 
I think the bride’s mother ought to having a ‘gentle word’ in the ear of the celebrant and not the guests!

Unless anti Catholicism is a hard-and-fast part of the ceremony, any remarks he makes are discretionary and the mother of the bride can ask him to use that discretion. If she feels she cannot do this directly; perhaps she could speak to her daughter, the Bride? After all; no Bride wishes to be deliberately offensive to her guests.

Good luck! 🙂

Edited to add: perhaps these comments are so commonplace because we do not complain? Our Jewish and Moslem brothers and sisters wouldn’t stand for this nonsense for one second! Ah! Don’t mind me! I need to learn to ‘turn the other cheek’. 🙂
 
I’m writing this from the assumption that your daughter is a young girl, since most flower girls I’ve ever seen have been youngsters. If that’s not the case, this advice may be less applicable.

While I’m not catholic, I don’t think this is something that should be ignored. If it was a mixed race marriage and the groom said that the pastor was only going to make comments about watermelon and fried chicken on the menu, or if one of the religions were muslim and state that they might want to blow something up during the honeymoon, it wouldn’t be appropriate, and this isn’t either.

If you were to visit the minister’s church when the sign outside says that tonight’s sermon is “what I think about catholics” then you’ve chosen to expose yourself to his ignorance. In this case he’s been hired to perform a specific job, in a hotel, and that job isn’t to preach about catholicism.

I think you should talk with the family and explain that you don’t condone bigotry and having your daughter in that setting if he is going to be accepted and affirmed for his bigotry will send the wrong message to her. So either you need assurances that the minister will stick to the role he’s been hired to do-marry the couple- or your daughter won’t be able to participate. If they question that, mention the scenarios I did above and see if that clears it up for them.

Let them know if he agrees to keep silent and then “ad libs” you and your daughter will have to leave, so they should decide beforehand whether they feel he will cooperate, and if they don’t feel he will behave appropriately and still want him as minister, then they should find another flower girl. If they are truly your friends they will understand this and either address the situation or not hold you and your daughter to the obligation without having any hard feelings.

No one should have to sit through public attack and slander in a situation like this. It teaches your daughter the wrong message, that bullies should be tolerated, and that it’s ok to allow verbal abuse of people to “not cause a fuss”. If the groom has anything to say about your decision, he should be asked why he waited until the week before the wedding to share that the minister is a bigot. Had you known earlier you would have responded earlier, but you have now done so as quickly as possible, having just learned the facts.

As I said, if your daughter is older, there might be a different dynamic (her decision rather than yours-in which case you should discuss it with her and let her know that bigotry is an acceptable reason to be unable to fulfil an obligation) but aside from that I think you should draw a line in this instance. Good luck.
 
The easy answer is that it is is not your wedding, and you should not interfere.

The less easy answer is that if someone is very close to the bride, that person should politely tell the bride that there will be Catholics at the wedding and it would be appreciated that the minister does not insult the guests.

IMHO, the minister of a wedding should not be insulting other religions, as it is in utterly poor taste and degrades the sanctity of the ceremony. The minister should address his own personal issues with other religions in the appropriate forum…and that would not be someone’s wedding.
 
Non_Serviam said:
I’m writing this from the assumption that your daughter is a young girl, since most flower girls I’ve ever seen have been youngsters. If that’s not the case, this advice may be less applicable.

While I’m not catholic, I don’t think this is something that should be ignored. If it was a mixed race marriage and the groom said that the pastor was only going to make comments about watermelon and fried chicken on the menu, or if one of the religions were muslim and state that they might want to blow something up during the honeymoon, it wouldn’t be appropriate, and this isn’t either.

If you were to visit the minister’s church when the sign outside says that tonight’s sermon is “what I think about catholics” then you’ve chosen to expose yourself to his ignorance. In this case he’s been hired to perform a specific job, in a hotel, and that job isn’t to preach about catholicism.

I think you should talk with the family and explain that you don’t condone bigotry and having your daughter in that setting if he is going to be accepted and affirmed for his bigotry will send the wrong message to her. So either you need assurances that the minister will stick to the role he’s been hired to do-marry the couple- or your daughter won’t be able to participate. If they question that, mention the scenarios I did above and see if that clears it up for them.

Let them know if he agrees to keep silent and then “ad libs” you and your daughter will have to leave, so they should decide beforehand whether they feel he will cooperate, and if they don’t feel he will behave appropriately and still want him as minister, then they should find another flower girl. If they are truly your friends they will understand this and either address the situation or not hold you and your daughter to the obligation without having any hard feelings.

No one should have to sit through public attack and slander in a situation like this. It teaches your daughter the wrong message, that bullies should be tolerated, and that it’s ok to allow verbal abuse of people to “not cause a fuss”. If the groom has anything to say about your decision, he should be asked why he waited until the week before the wedding to share that the minister is a bigot. Had you known earlier you would have responded earlier, but you have now done so as quickly as possible, having just learned the facts.

As I said, if your daughter is older, there might be a different dynamic (her decision rather than yours-in which case you should discuss it with her and let her know that bigotry is an acceptable reason to be unable to fulfil an obligation) but aside from that I think you should draw a line in this instance. Good luck.
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+1
 
Well, since we are the Church that says all salvation comes from our Church and we insist that children that come from a marriage to a Catholic must be raised Catholic, I see this as a turnabout being fair play.

I’m not joking. The Catholic Church is seen as being insulting to so many people, we should expect some pushback. At a Catholic wedding, we make sure to tell all of the other Christians that they can’t receive Holy Communion - that’s insulting.

Just take it and move on.
 
China123 said:
I put this in this forum because it deals with family/friend issues. If it is the incorrect forum, please excuse me and please move to appropriate.

My family is attending a wedding next week of some close family friends. Neither is Catholic and in fact the groom is athiest/agnostic. Bride’s mother and step-dad are Catholic converts but they did not raise their children Catholic as they converted after children were grown.

My friend (bride’s mother) called me this morning to go over some details. My daughter is the flower girl in the wedding so there were final things to discuss. She mentioned and wanted to warn me that the minister that was presiding was from the church of the Nazarene and was somewhat anti-Catholic. She was warned by the groom that the minister was going to make a remark about marriage not being a sacrament and would probably say some anti-Catholic things. He wanted to make sure she (bride’s mother) knew what the Nazaren church was all about? Not sure what that coment meant.

I guess since the ceremony is in a hotel and not in a church I can let the sacramental marriage comment go but if this preacher starts proclaiming anti-Catholic things I am not sure what I should do. Normally I might just walk out but since my daughter is in the wedding party I won’t be able to do that. This pastor knows that a lot attending are Catholic so quite possibly this is why he is doing it. My husband has said he will walk out but I am not sure if that is the best way to do it. It might be a good evangilization moment at the reception but maybe that isn’t even a correct place.

I am a cradle Catholic so anti-Catholic comments are fairly normal to hear and I can distance myself from the problem. This is somewhat different as my daughter is in the wedding party and has an obligation and I don’t want to lose friends over it but I do not want my Catholic faith bashed either. I mean, this guy has a captive audience and under kindness for the bride people will tolerate it.

Any advice from you learned people would be so appreciated. I have already started praying for the minister that he will not follow through on his bashing discourse.
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First of all, sort out what’s meant by “anti-catholic”
It may be the warning means “he’s likely to spout some theology that catholics don’t believe”…
Rather than “He’s going to outright bash catholicism”.

I suggest you go to the wedding, hoping for the best (that nothing hurtful will be said), behave like the perfectly gracious person you are, and ignore comments that are hurtful.
 
China123 said:
…
My friend (bride’s mother) called me this morning to go over some details. My daughter is the flower girl in the wedding so there were final things to discuss. She mentioned and wanted to warn me that the minister that was presiding was from the church of the Nazarene and was somewhat anti-Catholic. …
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Assuming your daughter is young, you should strongly consider not allowing her to attend the wedding, especially if the bride’s mother thought this sufficiently important to warn you.
 
PaulinVA said:
Well, since we are the Church that says all salvation comes from our Church and we insist that children that come from a marriage to a Catholic must be raised Catholic, I see this as a turnabout being fair play.

I’m not joking. The Catholic Church is seen as being insulting to so many people, we should expect some pushback. At a Catholic wedding, we make sure to tell all of the other Christians that they can’t receive Holy Communion - that’s insulting.

Just take it and move on.
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It’s not insulting - we’re looking out for their spiritual welfare. St Paul tells us that recceiving without acknowledging the Body and Blood being truly present affects their salvation.

On another note, we need to stand up for our beliefs. As much as I feel for the bride and groom on their special day, I would be remiss if I didn’t at least stand up in protest. If he questioned me, I would reply that he is a bigot and ask for other Catholics present to stand in protest.
 
getysbg said:
It’s not insulting - we’re looking out for their spiritual welfare. St Paul tells us that recceiving without acknowledging the Body and Blood being truly present affects their salvation.

On another note, we need to stand up for our beliefs. As much as I feel for the bride and groom on their special day, I would be remiss if I didn’t at least stand up in protest. If he questioned me, I would reply that he is a bigot and ask for other Catholics present to stand in protest.
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Great way to invite people to consider catholics rude and uncouth.
I daresay, if that’s what you would be compelled to do, you should stay home.
 
The bottom line is, this guy thinks he’s doing these kinds of things “in the name of Christ”.
When others do not act in a Christian way to other Christians, there is no need to participate.
She warned you because it’s going to be bad.
She gave you an “out”.
Avail yourself of it. Don’t cause a scene, just say no thanks. It’s not that big of a deal if the little girl is not in the wedding. Apparently she will understand.
 
MacQ said:
Great way to invite people to consider catholics rude and uncouth.
I daresay, if that’s what you would be compelled to do, you should stay home.
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Exactly.

If someone did that on my wedding day, I tell them to shut the hell up and leave…and I’m not kidding. And I would do it to someone else if they were interrupting someone else’s wedding also.
 
Are there some radical fundamentalist protestants posting here as “catholics”?
Talk of saving people from themselves and getting up in people’s faces…what the?
 
China123 said:

“She mentioned and wanted to warn me that the minister that was presiding was from the church of the Nazarene and was somewhat anti-Catholic. She was warned by the groom that the minister was going to make a remark about marriage not being a sacrament and would probably say some anti-Catholic things.”

pianistclare said:

“She warned you because it’s going to be bad.”

Yes, it does sound that way.

You do kind of have an out here, because the bride’s mother herself is warning you.

If the flower girl is small enough, I’d suggest either:
  1. going and maybe pulling out a large, ostentatious rosary for the anti-Catholic bits
or
  1. not going
If it’s a big girl (tweenish), she’s probably going to be crushed at the thought of not getting to be in the wedding. In that case, I would suggest going ahead with it, but warning the daughter in advance that the pastor is an anti-Catholic nutso. It’s unfortunate that such people exist, but you care about bride’s mom and bride, and you’d like to show your support for the wedding, even though the sermon may be “colorful.” If the daughter is big and wants to bail, that’s OK, too. For an older child, this could provide a teachable moment about Catholic teaching on marriage.

I do not suggest walking out in the middle of the wedding, particularly since you’d have to grab the flower girl out of the wedding party on the way. There’s a good chance that would cause a huge scene, particularly if the flower girl is not happy with your decision, which she wouldn’t be.
 
Also, the real bad actor here is the pastor. The problem with walking out is that you are primarily punishing the bride and groom, rather than the pastor. It’s not his big day–he doesn’t care. If he did care, he wouldn’t be insulting the bride’s mom and step-mom and probably dozens of guests.
 
I would just go to the wedding. I highly doubt it will be actually as anti’-Catholic as you think. Probably, the preacher will say things that go against what the Church believes, but I find it hard to believe that he is going to make some couple’s wedding day an opportunity to intentionally insult the guests. If your daughter is old enough to notice what it said, you may want to pre-emptively explain that not everyone believes what we do.
 
PaulinVA said:
Well, since we are the Church that says all salvation comes from our Church and we insist that children that come from a marriage to a Catholic must be raised Catholic, I see this as a turnabout being fair play.

I’m not joking. The Catholic Church is seen as being insulting to so many people, we should expect some pushback. At a Catholic wedding, we make sure to tell all of the other Christians that they can’t receive Holy Communion - that’s insulting.

Just take it and move on.
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Other religions have every right to make rules comparable to our Catholic rules, eg. affecting the raising of children, or the partaking of specific rituals (eg. Communion). Those are not, in any objective sense, insults.

For one Minister of religion to stand up and to “put down” another religion or its members is pathetic. If those arranging the wedding believed this was on the cards, you would hope they would make it clear to the Minister that he either agrees to refrain, or he removes himself from the ceremony.

Surely those inviting Catholic guests would be mortified at the prospect of such behaviour by their Minister?
 
Rau said:
Other religions have every right to make rules comparable to our Catholic rules, eg. affecting the raising of children, or the partaking of specific rituals (eg. Communion). Those are not, in any objective sense, insults.
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But they are taken as insults by a lot of people. Just saying.
For one Minister of religion to stand up and to “put down” another religion or its members is pathetic. If those arranging the wedding believed this was on the cards, you would hope they would make it clear to the Minister that he either agrees to refrain, or he removes himself from the ceremony.
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I agree. I don’t think that talking about the sacramental nature of marriage is as overtly insulting as explicitly mentioning it’s *not *a sacrament. Why would you do that?
 
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