Stigmata and the Shroud of Turin

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McCall1981

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Dont know if this is a strange question, but Ive been wondering this for a while. All accounts that I have read of people with the stigmata, like St Francis, Padre Pio etc, have said that theîr crucifixion wounds were on the palms of their hands. I think the wounds of the figure on the Shroud of Turin are on the wrist.

It seems like stigmata would reflect what actually happened at the crucifixion so both of these couldnt be genuine. Since the stimatic Saints are, well, Saints, I know their stigmata was genuine, but it leaves me doubting the Shroud (which I otherwise find pretty impressive).

Can these be reconciled in some way?
 
God could very well have chosen to have stigmatists display the wounds to conform to the popular image people have of them - of where they commonly think of them as being on Our Lord… The purpose of stigmatic wounds is not to be an accurate confirmation of where Our Lord’s wounds were. Some “stigmatists” have had invisible wounds – they experience the pain, but there is no visible manifestation. In all cases, they do reflect accurately that Our Lord had nails to affix His arms/hands to the cross beams of the cross.
 
I am currently reading a book called Padre Pio: The True Story, by Bernard Ruffin.
An excerpt relating to your question:
"Padre Pio showed no interest whatsoever in attempts to explain his stigmata. When asked why his hand wounds were in the palms rather than in the wrists (where victims of crucifixion were routinely nailed), he shrugged his shoulders and said, “Oh, I guess it would be too much to have them exactly like they were in the case of Our Lord.” When people suggested that the stigmata were caused by too great a degree of concentration on the Passion of Christ, Pio responded, “Go out to the fields and look very closely at a bull. Concentrate on him with all your might and see if you start to grow horns.” … Lol!
 
Also, we see only the back of the Shroud body’s hands.

The nail could have easily gone in the upper palm and come diagonally out the back of the wrist.

I wholemindedly believe the Shroud to be true. Stigmata cases are not intended to teach anatomy. Neither is the Shroud; however it is the graphic account of what happened to our LORD. ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
Also, we see only the back of the Shroud body’s hands.

The nail could have easily gone in the upper palm and come diagonally out the back of the wrist.

I wholemindedly believe the Shroud to be true. Stigmata cases are not intended to teach anatomy. Neither is the Shroud; however it is the graphic account of what happened to our LORD. ICXC NIKA
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I forgot where I read the same…the nails would go somewhere in the palm area and end up on the wrist area. The Romans knew what they were doing. 😉
 
pablope said:
I forgot where I read the same…the nails would go somewhere in the palm area and end up on the wrist area. The Romans knew what they were doing. 😉
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Interesting idea, I hadnt thought of that. Ive read that it would have had to be through the wrist because the palm wouldnt support the weight. But then Ive also read it couldnt be through the wrist because the person would quickly bleed to death, so they put it through palm and tied the wrists to the beam with rope to hold the weight. I guess putting it through at an angle would solve both problems.
 
McCall1981 said:
Interesting idea, I hadnt thought of that. Ive read that it would have had to be through the wrist because the palm wouldnt support the weight. But then Ive also read it couldnt be through the wrist because the person would quickly bleed to death, so they put it through palm and tied the wrists to the beam with rope to hold the weight. I guess putting it through at an angle would solve both problems.
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You really picked a great topic per details of the Shroud of Turin and Stigmata that has been in the back of my mind before, I’ve thought about it but it’s a bit distant now. I use to read books on the shroud, I still have a few and of course, resources online too. Shroud’s always been a favorite subject, if Star Trek fans are Trekkies, I must be the same with the Shroud of Turin.

I subscribed to the thread, though I did not have any real contribution.
 
BroomWagon said:
You really picked a great topic per details of the Shroud of Turin and Stigmata that has been in the back of my mind before, I’ve thought about it but it’s a bit distant now. I use to read books on the shroud, I still have a few and of course, resources online too. Shroud’s always been a favorite subject, if Star Trek fans are Trekkies, I must be the same with the Shroud of Turin.

I subscribed to the thread, though I did not have any real contribution.
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So youre a Shroudie? 😉

Maybe you would know then, are the wounds on the feet through the foot itself or the ankle?
 
McCall1981 said:
So youre a Shroudie? 😉

Maybe you would know then, are the wounds on the feet through the foot itself or the ankle?
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They are in the tops/soles of the feet.

You don’t see the sole wounds though, as the whole footprint is bloodstained.

ICXC NIKA
 
I concur the Shroud is beyond awesome! While I have not yet seen the real one, I have seen excellent reproductions and 1:1 backlit negatives and (in Israel) a bronze body cast using 3D visual data from the shroud.

If the SoT doesn’t gobsmack you with a sense of our LORD and what HE went through, nothing nonmiraculous will. IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA.
 
GEddie said:
They are in the tops/soles of the feet.

You don’t see the sole wounds though, as the whole footprint is bloodstained.

ICXC NIKA
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Actually, where the nails went in the feet of the Man on the Shroud is unclear. While it is often assumed that it went through the middle metasarsal area (i.e. the top of the feet) like we have in most of our crucifixes, Ian Wilson in his recent book arguted that there is a very distinctive rill of blood that can be seen to have spilled directly onto the foot region of the Shroud’s back half. This rill presumably spilled onto the cloth at the time the body was wrapped in it, just like the spillage from the chest wound. From its position, he claims that it looks to have come from the soft area just above the heel and behind the ankle.
 
McCall1981 said:
Dont know if this is a strange question, but Ive been wondering this for a while. All accounts that I have read of people with the stigmata, like St Francis, Padre Pio etc, have said that theîr crucifixion wounds were on the palms of their hands. I think the wounds of the figure on the Shroud of Turin are on the wrist.

It seems like stigmata would reflect what actually happened at the crucifixion so both of these couldnt be genuine. Since the stimatic Saints are, well, Saints, I know their stigmata was genuine, but it leaves me doubting the Shroud (which I otherwise find pretty impressive).

Can these be reconciled in some way?
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Not necessarily. Using another example as an illustration, visionaries who saw visions of Jesus’ passion - St. Bridget, Ven. María de Ágreda, and Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich for example - contradict each other on details. St. Bridget, for instance, saw in her visions that Jesus’ legs were crucified with His legs crossed, but with His feet being nailed separately using two nails - which is in accordance to the then-standard iconography of the crucifixion (something which might be supported by the recent archaeological discovery of the heelbone of a crucified man from Jerusalem). Contra Bridget, Maria and Bl. Emmerich report that Jesus’ feet was pierced with one nail - the way artists in the West had come to depict it since the 13th century.
 
Yet another reason to visit the OLAM Shrine in Hanceville, Alabama – they have a full-size replica just outside the crypt church (lower level).
 
What does “suspended” mean (under your name)?

I recently heard or read that rope was used around the wrists to hold the person in place on the cross and that nails were then driven through the palm downward.
 
#14: Yes, I have seen those replicas, it’s a bit foggy in my mind as it probably comes with a dissertation, those replicas have travelled around.

#15: Yes, the rope scenario, I think that is an option worth considering alright. I had definitely heard that before.

Image of the Shroud, back of the hands and I would say here, closer to the center of the palm and in this image which does not mean it is conclusive, quite a bit away from the wrist:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

On the web, there is the whole “Shroud of Turin Project” (STURP for short).

Looks like this same question was asked in a past thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4301781
It looks to me like the pool of blood starts at the bottom of the hand (back) - and flows down the wrist. According to Blessed Sr. Anne Catherine Emmerich, Christ was nailed through the palms of His hands, arms tied to the crossbeam, and feet on a footrest nailed with one nail (left over right). All the evidence seems consistent to me.
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Per the writings of Blessed Catherine Emmerich which is part of the inspiration again for the ‘Passion’ movie and I believe that is how Christ is crucified in that Mel Gibson movie.
 
ellzeena said:
What does “suspended” mean (under your name)?

snip
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OP can’t answer (because he has been suspended), so I’ll answer for him. Basically it means that he has done something against the rules, and therefore the mods have put him in the penalty box for a while.
 
DaveBj said:
Yet another reason to visit the OLAM Shrine in Hanceville, Alabama – they have a full-size replica just outside the crypt church (lower level).
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:):)🙂

Having been there 10 years ago, I am still moved by how that backlit image depicts HIS Body.

ICXC NIKA
 
DaveBj said:
OP can’t answer (because he has been suspended), so I’ll answer for him. Basically it means that he has done something against the rules, and therefore the mods have put him in the penalty box for a while.
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If he can’t answer, how can he have made this post? :eek:
Oh well, better head for cover lol.
 
ellzeena said:
If he can’t answer, how can he have made this post? :eek:
Oh well, better head for cover lol.
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Umm, he started the thread before he was suspended. (No need to head for cover; I’m not shooting at you 😃 )
 
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