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MatthewCrossman
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Thanks Liza!
Whilst I realise it is unquantifiable, my next question would be is there any anecdotal evidence of such occurrences resulting in people turning to Christ and his church?
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Whilst I realise it is unquantifiable, my next question would be is there any anecdotal evidence of such occurrences resulting in people turning to Christ and his church?
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StrawberryJam
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Matthew,Thanks Liza!
Whilst I realise it is unquantifiable, my next question would be is there any anecdotal evidence of such occurrences resulting in people turning to Christ and his church?
Doesn’t the bible warn people not to chase signs and wonders? I am just thinking about that…
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MatthewCrossman
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Wow…that is incredible! I’ve been doing some reading about this since you mentioned it. I vaguely remember something about the Mike Willesee documentary in the late 90s which I have also found mention of. I’d sure like to see that.
Either it’s one of the most elaborate hoaxes ever known or there is something in it for all of us.
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MatthewCrossman
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Hey Strawberry, I’m sorry, I’m not yet as bible-literate as I should be.
Have you got a verse?But in any case, I’m not looking for as such myself…I don’t need stigmata to believe.
I’m more trying to hear some ideas as to why God would utilise stigmata…like has such an event caused someone to ‘‘suspend disbelief’’, if you will.
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StrawberryJam
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I think it is found at Luke 11:29.Hey Strawberry, I’m sorry, I’m not yet as bible-literate as I should be.
But in any case, I’m not looking for as such myself…I don’t need stigmata to believe.
I’m more trying to hear some ideas as to why God would utilise stigmata…like has such an event caused someone to ‘‘suspend disbelief’’, if you will.
But I searched this topic here and found one poster who actually left the catholic church over these alleged miracles he researched and was upset to find they were not at all miraculous.
Don’t these things take away reasons to believe more than add to them?
For some, this may be a good thing to believe. But, didn’t they already believe before this? Didn’t many people believe before these alleged miracles came about?
Miracles are not supposed to benefit individuals anymore after Christ rose. All things after Christ rose were to benefit the entire church from what I make out of all this.
anything else could be from God, but is warned clearly in the bible it most likely won’t be more than a lying spirit.
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MatthewCrossman
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Thanks for the verse. I think I get what you are getting at…but to me there is a difference in craving a sign as Jesus says in Luke 11:29 and something miraculous happening and people being amazed by it. Why would a miracle take away reasons to believe?I think it is found at Luke 11:29.
But I searched this topic here and found one poster who actually left the catholic church over these alleged miracles he researched and was upset to find they were not at all miraculous.
Don’t these things take away reasons to believe more than add to them?
For some, this may be a good thing to believe. But, didn’t they already believe before this? Didn’t many people believe before these alleged miracles came about?
Miracles are not supposed to benefit individuals anymore after Christ rose. All things after Christ rose were to benefit the entire church from what I make out of all this.
anything else could be from God, but is warned clearly in the bible it most likely won’t be more than a lying spirit.
Granted, it is quite a different story if one was talking about a fake…or if as you say it was a lying spirit behind it.
Also, I think Jesus is talking to a particular generation here, being the people of that time. From my reading of Luke and the same story in Matthew (and though I am no bible scholar as already admitted), Jesus is more or less rebuking them for refusing to humble themselves and believe…I mean he performed miracle after miracle after miracle and these people still asked for one more sign.
Sorry, I know I’m getting off topic a little here.
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StrawberryJam
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MatthewCrossman
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‘‘The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous signs, lying wonders…’’
So, quoting that verse is all well and good…if you believe instances of stigmata are nothing but a show put on, using the power of the devil, to deceive people.
If that is the case why were many, if not most, of the people held to have borne stigmata saints?
Is it reasonable to think someone such as St Francis of Assisi devoted their whole life to the service and glory of God, yet somehow was really involved with Satan…and therefore bore stigmata?
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MatthewCrossman
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When it’s all said and done I don’t believe the church has an official line on stigmata, which is cool with me.
I just think it’s a bit of a stretch to suggest such phenomena could be the work of Satan.
Blessings…
I just think it’s a bit of a stretch to suggest such phenomena could be the work of Satan.
Blessings…
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spankyg
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If you think it’s the work of Satan, are you admitting its supernatural? Or did he just use acid because Satan told him to?
I don’t know too many Catholic priests, who have dedicated their entire life serving God, would pour acid on their hands for Satan.
Also, you’re the first agnostic I have seen who believes that there is such thing as Satan, so that’s a plus.
Or are you just citing verses which you think are fictitious, but may help your argument?
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StrawberryJam
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Not at all, I am basing my reaction to an event that is accedited to the Christian God and lining it up with what the Christian God says about things like this. I don’t believe in Satan anymore than I believe in any God.If you think it’s the work of Satan, are you admitting its supernatural? Or did he just use acid because Satan told him to?
I don’t know too many Catholic priests, who have dedicated their entire life serving God, would pour acid on their hands for Satan.
Also, you’re the first agnostic I have seen who believes that there is such thing as Satan, so that’s a plus.
Or are you just citing verses which you think are fictitious, but may help your argument?
A lifetime of being a priest does not make said priest immune from error.
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spankyg
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Error on his own terms?
Accepting advice from what he thinks is Satan? Pouring acid on his hands to deceive others yet his whole life has been lived for the devotion of God. Look at the big picture my friend.
You stated before as well, that you heard of a catholic who gave up their faith due to the fact he saw these “so called” miracles as a sham. Just for the record, I could sit here all day, and name people who used to be Atheist/Agnostic, and have come to believe in the faith through miracles and other miraculous works. Would that make you change your stance at all on this issue? No, it wouldn’t.
Your running your mouth.
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StrawberryJam
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If you believe this stigmata to be a benefit to yourself or others in good conscience, I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people thinking its unreasonable to question this. If you are fine with people rejecting your church because of these alleged miracles I guess that is all the evidence anyone needs about what good it brings.
I’m sure there are people that do come to belief in God through means like this. Everyone is looking for something.
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spankyg
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The Stigmata does not benefit anyone. It is a supernatural experience which one endures through severe devotion to Christ. If someone is drawn to Christ through it, then so be it. But the person who endures this phenomenon is in pain, receiving a glimpse of what Christ went through. This is considered a privilege among us Catholics. And to be honest, as a young person, I’m pretty involved with mainstream agendas, and the stigmata is something which people often don’t know too much about.
It isn’t as if we parade it around like some AMAZING occurrence which everyone HAS to believe. In fact, the list of people who have received the stigmata on “Wikipedia” is only around 17, and it goes all the way back to Saint Francis of Assisi.
Why are you so concerned with this?
And who ever said it was unreasonable to question this?
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spankyg
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Then you go on to say:
So, wait, why should you reject the church, if the church itself never even called the wounds a miracle?
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StrawberryJam
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I think it is premature to say I have rejected the catholic church.
But, feel free to say I have if you wish.
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spankyg
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My point was you contradicted yourself. Are you illiterate? Or are you just ignoring the fact.
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StrawberryJam
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I did not make a contradiction.
I stated Padre Pio is not the Catholic Church. I stated that this stigmata is not declared a miracle by the catholic church.
I have not rejected the catholic church.
These things are facts.
Your stringing together my observations that this stigmata leaves many people questioning the thing to be of supernatural causes with good reasons to, and the facts above do not translate to a contradiction on my part.
If this stigmata of his is meaningful to you, I can see why you are so upset by my comments. I have stated that if this is of benefit to those that find it meaningful, that’s great.
If you want to argue this stigmata is a genuine supernatural event please do so for both of our sakes.
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spankyg
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Your Catholic?
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StrawberryJam
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Not today I am not.
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