Stigmata question

[halleone]

This probably isn’t the right forum to ask, but none of them seemed to fit.

I am reading St Faustina’s Diary now, and am aware that she had stigmata. So too did St. Padre Pio. I was curious if stigmata is something that has occurred to only Catholics, or are there purported instances that have occurred to non- Catholics?

 

[GloriousOrder]

Here is a very interesting (if openly schismatic and non-ecumenical) account of the stigmata of St. Francis of Assisi compared to the life of St. Seraphim of Sarov:

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx

Look out for some big vitriol and dung-flinging, but at least there is a fascinating description of just why the East never experienced stigmata. Protestants don’t seem to report it, either. This sort of non-universality about the phenomenon points to only three options: 1. made up by Catholics to support a false idea, 2. not experienced by Orthodox and Protestants because they’re not true Christians and don’t have the fullness of the faith, or 3. inadvertently psycho-biologically imprinted on mystical Catholics by a combination of weird physiological circumstances involved with intense contemplation/states of ecstasy (where the body actually takes on qualities of the thing it’s imitating)!

It’s very complex and irritating a subject to get into, with all the doubts around it.

 

[athenasius]

As far as I know only Catholics get it but I could be wrong. I think that the forum choice was alright.

 

[Wesley7]

I might have had a stigmata in my brain. . .

 

[CB_Catholic]

As far as I know only Catholics get it but I could be wrong. I think that the forum choice was alright.

There is a woman, Cloretta Robinson, who is a Protestant and who “got” the stigmata at the age of 10 in 1972. There is also an Anglican woman named Jane Hunt who had them.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

… This sort of non-universality about the phenomenon points to only three options: 1. made up by Catholics to support a false idea, 2. not experienced by Orthodox and Protestants because they’re not true Christians and don’t have the fullness of the faith, or 3. inadvertently psycho-biologically imprinted on mystical Catholics by a combination of weird physiological circumstances involved with intense contemplation/states of ecstasy (where the body actually takes on qualities of the thing it’s imitating)!

It’s very complex and irritating a subject to get into, with all the doubts around it.

I offer option 4: God adapts His message to the receiver.

Someone in an Eastern Church once noted that apparitions are more common in the Western Church, while the Eastern Churches have bleeding icons etc. I think it akin to the varying appearance of The Blessed Virgin in her various apparitions. e.g. Fatima vs Guadalupe.

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

The purpose of miracles is to confirm and give testimony to the Catholic Faith. This is why miracles rarely occur outside the Catholic Church. When they do occur outside the Catholic Church, it is in order to show people to the Catholic Faith.

St. Francis was the first to experience the phenomenon and people, even the pope, wasn’t sure this was a real thing because it had never happened before that people knew about. But it was shown to be a true union with the Passion of Our Lord.

Only a couple Protestants have claimed to have the stigmata.

 

[jesuspsr]

I read a book many years ago, so I can’t give you the name of the book. It had to do with stigmata. It said that it happens to catholics the majority of the time. Their was only one case in the state of Alabama where a baptist teenage African-American girl had stigmata of her hands only and not the others wounds which accompany stigmata. So I was left with the opinion that in rare occasions it can happen to others not just catholics.

God bless

jesus g

 

[JReducation]

The purpose of miracles is to confirm and give testimony to the Catholic Faith. This is why miracles rarely occur outside the Catholic Church. When they do occur outside the Catholic Church, it is in order to show people to the Catholic Faith.

St. Francis was the first to experience the phenomenon and people, **even the pope, wasn’t sure this was a real thing **because it had never happened before that people knew about. But it was shown to be a true union with the Passion of Our Lord.

Only a couple Protestants have claimed to have the stigmata.

The bold is mine. This is not accurate. Pope Gregory IX was very sure that this was real. He had seen it with his own eyes. Gregory was formerly Cardinal Hugolino, the Cardinal Protector of the Franciscans. He described the stigmata in every detail for St. Bonaventure who wrote the biography. St. Bonaventure never saw it. He met Francis when he (Bonaventure) was a little boy. By the time that he joined the order, Francis was dead. The General Chapter commanded the Minster General, Brother Bonaventure, to write the official biography of the founder. Bonaventure began a seven year discernment process with the help of Pope Gregory IX, St. Clare and St. Thomas Aquinas. Pope Gregory was the one who provided the details and the graphic description of the stigmata and how it happened.

Brother Leo witnessed the actual miracle. He reported it to Cardinal Hugolino who came to Assisi to see for himself. Cardinal Hugolino became Pope Gregory just a few months before Francis died. However, as Cardinal Hugolino, he presented the formal report to Pope Honorius who accepted the veracity of the stigmata.

It was Hugolino who tells us that the stigmata was so real that it included the nails, not just the wounds. He said that there were pieces of flesh as hard as finger nails that penetrated the heal of the hand and came out at the wrist with an upward hook, which was how the Romans nailed their victims. They insterted the nail through the heal of the hand, at an angle, so that it went through the wrist and they would hammer the nail to bend it so that if you tried to pull away from the wood, you would be impaired and would not fall forward.

It is not true that Pope Honorius or Pope Gregory had doubts. There was an eye witness to the miracle and there were others, such as Clare, the brothers, nuns and the future pope himself who saw the wounds and nails.

What is true is that Francis of Assisi is the first known stigmatic. It is believed that he may have been the first. If there were ever others, no one ever reported it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

"VivaCristoRey27:

St. Francis was the first to experience the phenomenon and people, even the pope, wasn’t sure this was a real thing because it had never happened before that people knew about. But it was shown to be a true union with the Passion of Our Lord

The bold is mine. This is not accurate. Pope Gregory IX was very sure that this was real. He had seen it with his own eyes.

I should have been more clear. Everyone, even the pope, wasn’t sure it was a real miracle until the pope had a vision and proclaimed that it was indeed a true miracle. That is what I meant by saying that “But it was shown to be a true union with the Passion of Our Lord.”
Little Flowers of St. Francis:

CHAPTER LVIII

HOW POPE GREGORY IX, WHO HAD DOUBTED OF THE STIGMATA OF ST FRANCIS, WAS ASSURED OF THEIR TRUTH

Passing over all the miracles of the sacred, holy stigmata of St Francis, it shall suffice in conclusion of this fifth consideration to relate the following: Pope Gregory IX having some little doubt, as he afterwards related, concerning the wound in the side of St Francis, the saint one night appeared to him, and raising his right arm a little, discovered to him the wound in his side. He then bade him bring a flask and place it beneath the wound, and when the Pope had done so, he saw it filled to the brim with blood mingled with water, which flowed from the wound; and thereupon all doubt immediately departed from him. After this, with the concurrence of all the Cardinals, he approved the sacred, holy stigmata of St Francis by a special bull granted to the friars at Viterbo in the eleventh year of his papacy; and in the following year he issued another, with still more copious privileges. Pope Nicholas III and Pope Alexander also confirmed the same, with fuller privileges, decreeing that whosoever should deny the sacred, holy stigmata might be proceeded against as a heretic. And this shall suffice concerning the fifth consideration of the glorious, holy, and sacred stigmata of our father St Francis, whose life may God give us grace to follow in this world, that by virtue of his glorious stigmata we may deserve to be saved with him in Paradise! To the praise of Jesus Christ and his poor servant St Francis! Amen.

 

[JReducation]

I should have been more clear. Everyone, even the pope, wasn’t sure it was a real miracle until the pope had a vision and proclaimed that it was indeed a true miracle. That is what I meant by saying that “But it was shown to be a true union with the Passion of Our Lord.”

I see where you got this from. The Fioretti are historical, but not factual writings. They are a collection of anecdotes that were written about 160 years after the death of our Holy Father. They were not written to be read as biographical facts. They were written as spiritual works to inspire the readers in the spirituality of St. Francis. Some of the stories in the Fioretti are found in early Franciscan writings and archival notes written by Celano, Bonaventure and even by Leo. However, the original versions of the stories are less colorful and less filled with miracles and mystical “flare” if you will. They are based on events in the life of Francis.

However, we Franciscans have found them to be unrealiable in details. It is true that Pope Gregory knew about the stigmata. However, if one observes the story the way that it’s told in the Fioretti, the dream would have occurred after Gregory had already canonized Francis. The problem is that Pope Gregory speaks about the miracles during and after the life of Francis in his decree of canonization.

** Therefore, since the wondrous events of his glorious life are quite well known to us because of the great familiarity he had with us while we still occupied a lower rank, and since we are fully convinced by reliable witnesses of the many brilliant miracles, we and the flock entrusted to us, by the mercy of God, are confident of being assisted at his intercession and of having in heaven a patron whose friendship we enjoyed on earth. With the consultation and approval of our Brothers, we have decreed that he be enrolled in the catalogue of saints worthy of veneration.**

This anecdote places the dream after the canonization, because it refers to Francis as Saint. There is another conflict within this anecdote. It says “Passing over all the miracles of the sacred, holy stigmata of St Francis, it shall suffice in conclusion of this fifth consideration”. The truth is that Pope Gregory did not wait until the investigation was complete. He bypassed beatification and proceeded to canonize Francis while the cardinals are still studying the biography that Gregory had commissioned.

It may be true that Pope Gregory had a dream. Franciscan scholars can neither deny nor affirm this. It is also true that Popes Gregory, Nicholas and Alexander decreed that anyone who denied the stigmata was a heretic, stopping just short of declaring it a doctrine of the Church.

This information comes to us through the biography written by St. Bonaventure who took the testimonies of those who were alive at the time of the death and canonization of Francis.

It is very possible that the writer of this anecdote may be trying to drive home two points:

a) The stigmata was real.

b) It was confirmed by a miraculous intervention from heaven after the death of St. Francis.

We do know that the intent of the Fioretti was to promote devotion to Francis and to drive home the teaching of the Church regarding St. Francis, that he was the Mirror of Perfection, the Alter Christus and the Pefect Christian. These are actual statements by the popes that followed Francis’ death. They would be repeated later in three encyclicals by Popes Leo XII, Pius X and Pius XII, again, by Pope Benedict XVI in his book Jesus of Nazareth where he refers to St. Francis’ life to exemplify how the Beatitudes are to be understood.

Thomas of Celano wrote Vita Beati Francisci in 1228 commissioned by Pope Gregory IX for the canonization. In other words, the biography was written before the actual canonization and was approved by Pope Gregory. In this work, Celano describes the stigmata. The description that Celano provides is congruent with the description that Pope Gregory gives to Bonaventure, around 1238 when Bonaventure becomes a friar. Bonaventure does not publish his work until 1263. Pope Gregory died in 1241. In Bonaventure’s biography there is extensive reference to the stigmata and to the intimate relationship between then Cardinal Hugolino and Francis, but no mention of Pope Gregory’s dream. Since Bonaventure does not publish his work until long after the death of Pope Gregory, it would seem logical that if he had known about this dream, he would have included it in his work.

This dream is not mentioned until the publication of the Fioretti in or around 1389. We’re not sure if it actually happened or if it’s hagiography. What we do know is that Pope Gregory knew about the stigmata, had seen the wounds while Francis was alive, approved that narrative before the canonization, which took place July 16, 1228 and then makes reference to the miracles in the bull of canonization which he issues on Aug 14, 1228, not in Assisi, where he had canonized Francis, but in Perugia.

Francis’ story is in reverse of most saints. His miracles take place during his lifetime. He is canonized before the investigation is completed, without a beatification, only 18 months after his death. He is canonized by a friend. The decree of canonization is issued after the fact and the study of his life is completed almost 35 years after his canonization. By that time, the only purpose that it served was historical, because the deed was done. The stigmata and canonization had been approved and the three liturgical feast days were in place, Sept 16, Feast of the Stigmata and October 3, his death and October 4, his entrance into glory.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[EzraJacob]

I was reading through this thread, and made me think of what the Eastern Orthodox think of the miracles and apparitions of our Holy Church. I ended up finding this website orthodoxanswers.org/answer/61/ But I am confused. I may not have the right skills or its to late or something but I can not fully understand what is being said as to how the Eastern Orthodox feel and believe about the Apparition of our Blessed Mother in Lourdes, France.

Anyway, I thought is was somewhat relevant to the topic

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

I see where you got this from. The Fioretti are historical, but not factual writings. They are a collection of anecdotes that were written about 160 years after the death of our Holy Father. They were not written to be read as biographical facts. They were written as spiritual works to inspire the readers in the spirituality of St. Francis. Some of the stories in the Fioretti are found in early Franciscan writings and archival notes written by Celano, Bonaventure and even by Leo. However, the original versions of the stories are less colorful and less filled with miracles and mystical “flare” if you will. They are based on events in the life of Francis.

To be honest, the only things I know about St. Francis are from these two books – “The Little Flowers of St. Francis” and “The Life of St. Francis” by Br. Ugolino and St. Bonaventure, respectively (which are combined into one volume):

baroniuspress.com/upimages/37-61.jpg

So thank you for the more detailed information.

 

[JReducation]

To be honest, the only things I know about St. Francis are from these two books – “The Little Flowers of St. Francis” and “The Life of St. Francis” by Br. Ugolino and St. Bonaventure, respectively (which are combined into one volume):

baroniuspress.com/upimages/37-61.jpg

So thank you for the more detailed information.

The Fioretti or Little Flowers as they are called in English are to be read like this.

Listen to the voice of Francis. Do not worry about their factual accuracy, because that’s not why the Seraphic Father inspired them to be written. He wanted them to reflect the kindness of the Lord. So when you read them, observe how gracious God is to Francis and through Francis. Pay special attention to the little things, for that’s what our Holy Father intends for you to notice. He wants you to see that God is to be found in the little things, the simple people, the little joys and small sufferings in life.

God is not to be found in the great and ostentatious. He is a God of majesty who in his infinite mercy and love has become a prisoner of love in human simplicity so that every man, woman and child, not matter how erudite or how simple may appreciate his great love for us and his desire to become incarnate in our lives.

The Little Flowers that the Seraphic Father left for us are meant to inspire us to find God in that which is simple, humble, silent, musical, beautiful and gentle, but above all, in poverty. Observe in the Little Flowers, in the sacred stigmata how only when Francis surrenders and ceases to wish for what he believes should be does he find what truly IS. Only when Francis surrenders his desire to control, does he become like Jesus in all things. Because it is at the moment when we are truly detached, not only from material things, but also from those other things that we believe are so important, that we can become truly like Christ, naked, poor, humble, alone, and thirsty, suspended on a cross for the salvation of souls and the glory of the Father.

The Little Flowers are truly the five wounds on the body of the Crucified Christ. Each wound is a flower.

The first flower is love. Without simple love, even for those who are not with us or like us, there is no hope for us. Christ understands our difficulty in loving. So he loves enough for all of us and shares his love to be found in the flower which is the first wound.

The second flower is mercy. It is the flower that opens man’s heart to see other men as God sees them, as his children for whom he sacrifices his only begotten Son.

The third flower is faith. Faith is greater than believing. Believing is simple. Faith is desire. Through the wound of faith Christ pours out his grace to us so that we may desire what he desires, to fulfill the Will of the one who sent him. That is true faith.

The fourth flower is the fourth wound, hope. Hope is the virtue through which all other virtues become possible. Because the man of hope trusts the words of the Angel. “Nothing is impossible for God.” And so, when we embrace this flower and allow the grace that flows from the fourth wound to pour into our hearts and minds, we find great peace in the knowledge that no matter how grim and dark things may look, with God all things are possible.

Finally, the fifth flower or the fifth wound is peace. Christ calls us to live in peace and to bring peace into the lives of others, as he came to bring peace into the world.

So, when you think of the stigmata, remember the five flowers on the crucified body of Christ: love, mercy, faith, hope and peace.

If you can understand these things, then you will have understood the real message in the Little Flowers of the Seraphic Father. His entire life was not about solving great problems, settling the crises in the Church, engaging in great missionary activities, converting every man, woman and child. His life was about bigger and better things, it was about being exactly like the Crucified Christ. Other than the Virgin made Church, no one else has ever captured the essence of the Crucified as Francis of Assisi. So . . . to him who was so identified with the mission of the Crucified, to bring all things to the Father, was granted to ultimate sign of the Christian faith. Francis did not wear a crucifix on his habit, because God granted him the grace to become a living crucifix in his heart, mind and body by uniting his will to the will of Christ.

A stigmata is granted to those souls whose lives are grounded in the five little flowers found on the body of Christ Crucified. Again, when reading the Fioretti, don’t worry about factual accuracy. The Fioretti was not given to us as a biographical work on Francis of Assisi. Rather, they are a continuation of Francis’ preaching about Christ and on how he should be loved and how he loves us as evidenced by the five flowers on his wounded body: love, mercy, faith, hope and peace.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Like]

I was reading through this thread, and made me think of what the Eastern Orthodox think of the miracles and apparitions of our Holy Church. I ended up finding this website orthodoxanswers.org/answer/61/ But I am confused. I may not have the right skills or its to late or something but I can not fully understand what is being said as to how the Eastern Orthodox feel and believe about the Apparition of our Blessed Mother in Lourdes, France.

Anyway, I thought is was somewhat relevant to the topic

Hi Ezra, 1st. Thanks for the link.

Did you see or at the bottom of that page this…

About the OrthodoxAnswers.org and Orthodox-Church.info web sites

This website offers reliable, scholarly and authoritative information on the Orthodox Christian faith and what is often called the Eastern Orthodox Church, Greek Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Serbian Orthodox Church, etc.

This website is written from the perspective of canonical Orthodoxy, i.e. from within the communion of the ancient patriarchates and other autocephalous units of the Orthodox communion. In particular, our goal is to be the Orthodox Christian counterpart to Catholic.com (Catholic Answers), providing a balance of apologetics and sound scholarship.

I found that last sentence to be some what amusing.

Anyway, the writer of the article is giving his opinion of who is the true Church, (East or West) as I read it.

 

[Bluegoat]

Yes, there are non-Catholics who have experienced the stigmata, for what it is worth.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

…

St. Francis was the first to experience the phenomenon and people, even the pope, wasn’t sure this was a real thing because it had never happened before that people knew about. But it was shown to be a true union with the Passion of Our Lord.

…

I have seen it suggested that Saint Paul had the stigmata -

17 Henceforth let no man trouble me; for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.

Galatians 6:17 - I don’t think there is any official Church teaching on this.

 

[puzzleannie]

This probably isn’t the right forum to ask, but none of them seemed to fit.

I am reading St Faustina’s Diary now, and am aware that she had stigmata. So ?

I never heard this, I have read extracts of the diary and a lot of material about her but missed this.

even if a non-Catholic claimed to have stigmata ordinarily the Catholic Church would not investigate or rule about it it, so it would not be documented.