S
Sir_Knight
Guest
I just came across the following …
Continued in NEXT post …
Stigmata -- sign of God's great love or lying wonders from the devil
- Status
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
… Continued from PREVIOUS post.
… and it got me wondering. Comments?
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
It sounds very interesting, and has some good points. I’m not much of a scholar on saints, but I have read some of St. John of the Cross Dark Night of the Soul and had some of what could have been dark night-ish experiences and I’m not sure I would blithely characterize his writing as promoting “intense spiritual and emotional suffering.” I see the dark night as a time of purgation during which a soul begins its journey toward perfection, and has to sort out a number of potentially confusing issues such as the sin of pride which can come in so many subtle forms that many might mistake it for true humility. It’s been a while, so I think I might reread the Dark Night, but it seemed at the time that it was a beautiful journey of a lover toward the object of its love, against all that would bind it and try to keep it away. It used the “dark night” as cover (perhaps kind of like humility?) for its journey.
Given that and my lack of experience on the other saints, I’m a bit suspect of possible over-simplification. I agree that on the surface the whole idea of self-inflicted wounds seems misguided if not downright psychotic. If self-inflicting painful and dangerous wounds is pleasing to Jesus, why didn’t he do it for one thing, and wouldn’t this lead to the conclusion that to really show your love for Jesus you’d keep yourself right on the verge of life and death, unable to do much of anything useful to help your neighbor?
In another thread I was astonished at the “obedience” that a quote from Catherine of Siena seemed to be promoting. The quote suggested that she would be obedient to a priest “even if he were a demon incarnate.” If she really believes that, then perhaps this self-flogging could in fact be based on her obedience as to some authority that she didn’t second-guess. Again, as in John-of-the-Cross, there may be subtleties here that are not apparent from the article you quoted, but I think intentional physical self-destruction could be driven by spiritual pride and lust.
Then again strange things have happened. Last Thursday the Mass was for St. Pio and the priest there who had personally met Pio told some fascinating stories, such as Pio had consented to being “obsessed” by satan, which is an intermediate point between beint “tempted” and “possessed” but not like either one. Sometimes satan actually threw Pio around in his cell physically causing bruising. That was a consent to torture by satan, though; I still don’t remember him saying anything about Pio having self-inflicted wounds.
Alan
Given that and my lack of experience on the other saints, I’m a bit suspect of possible over-simplification. I agree that on the surface the whole idea of self-inflicted wounds seems misguided if not downright psychotic. If self-inflicting painful and dangerous wounds is pleasing to Jesus, why didn’t he do it for one thing, and wouldn’t this lead to the conclusion that to really show your love for Jesus you’d keep yourself right on the verge of life and death, unable to do much of anything useful to help your neighbor?
In another thread I was astonished at the “obedience” that a quote from Catherine of Siena seemed to be promoting. The quote suggested that she would be obedient to a priest “even if he were a demon incarnate.” If she really believes that, then perhaps this self-flogging could in fact be based on her obedience as to some authority that she didn’t second-guess. Again, as in John-of-the-Cross, there may be subtleties here that are not apparent from the article you quoted, but I think intentional physical self-destruction could be driven by spiritual pride and lust.
Then again strange things have happened. Last Thursday the Mass was for St. Pio and the priest there who had personally met Pio told some fascinating stories, such as Pio had consented to being “obsessed” by satan, which is an intermediate point between beint “tempted” and “possessed” but not like either one. Sometimes satan actually threw Pio around in his cell physically causing bruising. That was a consent to torture by satan, though; I still don’t remember him saying anything about Pio having self-inflicted wounds.
Alan
T
Teresa9
Guest
Interesting in that case that all genuine stigmatics have been canonised…hardly the work of the satan in my mind, but a reflection of Christ’s suffering to remind us all of His love for us.
God Bless you and much love and peace to you
Teresa
God Bless you and much love and peace to you
Teresa
When I think of how “cushy” our lives have become and how quickly a lot of people justify their complaints or whining about the tiniest discomforts (you know, like, how long one has to wait “on hold” on the phone when 200 years ago a prompt reply took over six months in some cases), I have to thank those who are willing to take on additional physical pain and discomfort to make up for our own many shortcomings.
Perhaps one has to see how the saint viewed self-inflicted pain before one can judge. Where did you get this quote, if I may ask?
BlueRose
Perhaps one has to see how the saint viewed self-inflicted pain before one can judge. Where did you get this quote, if I may ask?
BlueRose
C
Christy_Beth
Guest
Jesus said that the servent is not greater than his master. Our master is Jesus. He allowed Himself to be whipped and crucified. He didn’t have to. He could have just written us off. But He chose to do what He did out of love for us. Not all of us are called to mortification. Not all of us are asked to whip ourselves. But we are called to imitate Him. And, eventually, in some way, we will be called to suffer. If we are not now suffering.
In the past, I believe that Jesus asked these souls to do what they did to show that those who suffer the most will be closest to God. Of course, we will not all suffer in the same way. Even today there are martyrs in various countries. And there are many who are quietly suffering, and no one else knows it. There are many saints who we do not know. In the end, we will see them and glorify God for what He has done in and through them.
In the past, I believe that Jesus asked these souls to do what they did to show that those who suffer the most will be closest to God. Of course, we will not all suffer in the same way. Even today there are martyrs in various countries. And there are many who are quietly suffering, and no one else knows it. There are many saints who we do not know. In the end, we will see them and glorify God for what He has done in and through them.
C
CARose
Guest
IMHO, in the suffering of the Stigmata, the saint joins himself to the Passion of Christ, the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, the most beautiful act of selflessness performed for humanity through Christ’s human nature. The saint understands that love of the world encourages a seperation from love of the divine, hence welcoming anything that turns the focus towards God and a deeper understanding of the full extent of his love for humanity.
I would also imagine it would be hard to get overly proud when one is doubled over in pain, and Pride was the ultimate sin, when Adam and Eve sought to be “Like God’s” by eating of the Tree of Good and Evil. This act of disobedience and lack of faith that God, if asked, would save them from their enemy, brought evil to reign on earth. How glorious that these saints, through their living examples of humans following so closely in the footsteps of Jesus, bring grace into the world for the benefit of all mankind.
IMHO,
God Bless,
CARose
I would also imagine it would be hard to get overly proud when one is doubled over in pain, and Pride was the ultimate sin, when Adam and Eve sought to be “Like God’s” by eating of the Tree of Good and Evil. This act of disobedience and lack of faith that God, if asked, would save them from their enemy, brought evil to reign on earth. How glorious that these saints, through their living examples of humans following so closely in the footsteps of Jesus, bring grace into the world for the benefit of all mankind.
IMHO,
God Bless,
CARose
B
BayCityRickL
Guest
I don’t understand stigmata. If they are truly supernatural in origin, then they must be given primarily for the benefit of the recipient. If someone with stigmata other than Christ were standing next to me, I would have more skepticism than awe.
Perhaps if stigmata are of supernatural origin, then their occurrence must be significant in the historical setting where they occur.
If you don’t already have a strong faith in Jesus, then stigmata may not impress you. If you do have such faith, then at best it is a pointer to Jesus, whose own stigmata are the only ones that really count. I don’t need stigmata in me or anyone else to augment my faith. Have a nice day.
Perhaps if stigmata are of supernatural origin, then their occurrence must be significant in the historical setting where they occur.
If you don’t already have a strong faith in Jesus, then stigmata may not impress you. If you do have such faith, then at best it is a pointer to Jesus, whose own stigmata are the only ones that really count. I don’t need stigmata in me or anyone else to augment my faith. Have a nice day.
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
as a convert to catholicism from a protestant background (i have a degree in baptist theology), i would like to say that one of the things i appreciate most deeply about catholic theology is its developed, intelligent, and holistic view of the role of suffering the life of Christians.
so many people today, most especially protestants, want life to be fun, easy, and happy. however, this is not very consistent with Christ’s words to His followers. we are told to take up our crosses daily and die to ourselves. we are encouraged in the epistles to join ourselves to Christ in His sufferings, and to not think of ourselves more highly than Christ, who took on the form of a servant, and was ultimately crucified.
i have to admit that this is a tough pill to swallow. when i was protestant, i, too, wanted life to be fun and successful and easy and happy. but the more i learned, as i read the Bible, and prayed, and just walked with Jesus in my life, the more i see that suffering is a huge part of our ‘curriculum’ as followers of Jesus.
does it make sense? sometimes. i know that i’ve learned so much, i’ve matured and grown immeasurably, due to suffering. growth and maturity and learning that i know would have been impossible by any other means (excepting a miracle).
but the thing is, it doesn’t REALLY matter if it makes sense. this is life. we DO suffer. the more we follow Him, the more acute that suffering can be. joy, yes. finding what God is doing to redeem our suffering, sure. but suffering? no doubt.
i’d like to comment on something previously posted: 'The quote suggested that she would be obedient to a priest “even if he were a demon incarnate.” ’ this is consistent with paul’s admonition that we be obedient to the authorities God has put over us - and paul meant the government when he said this. and he wrote this from a horrible nasty little jail cell, where he was imprisoned, one might say by a ‘demon incarnate’, for the very act of following Jesus - preaching His gospel. so the idea of 'being obedient to a priest ‘even if he were a demon incarnate’ is certainly Biblical.
God’s grace and peace be with you as you learn through His curriculum - which might just include suffering.
so many people today, most especially protestants, want life to be fun, easy, and happy. however, this is not very consistent with Christ’s words to His followers. we are told to take up our crosses daily and die to ourselves. we are encouraged in the epistles to join ourselves to Christ in His sufferings, and to not think of ourselves more highly than Christ, who took on the form of a servant, and was ultimately crucified.
i have to admit that this is a tough pill to swallow. when i was protestant, i, too, wanted life to be fun and successful and easy and happy. but the more i learned, as i read the Bible, and prayed, and just walked with Jesus in my life, the more i see that suffering is a huge part of our ‘curriculum’ as followers of Jesus.
does it make sense? sometimes. i know that i’ve learned so much, i’ve matured and grown immeasurably, due to suffering. growth and maturity and learning that i know would have been impossible by any other means (excepting a miracle).
but the thing is, it doesn’t REALLY matter if it makes sense. this is life. we DO suffer. the more we follow Him, the more acute that suffering can be. joy, yes. finding what God is doing to redeem our suffering, sure. but suffering? no doubt.
i’d like to comment on something previously posted: 'The quote suggested that she would be obedient to a priest “even if he were a demon incarnate.” ’ this is consistent with paul’s admonition that we be obedient to the authorities God has put over us - and paul meant the government when he said this. and he wrote this from a horrible nasty little jail cell, where he was imprisoned, one might say by a ‘demon incarnate’, for the very act of following Jesus - preaching His gospel. so the idea of 'being obedient to a priest ‘even if he were a demon incarnate’ is certainly Biblical.
God’s grace and peace be with you as you learn through His curriculum - which might just include suffering.
A
Annunciata
Guest
Teresa,
I’m inclined to agree with your take on this! You always have such good insights…
God Bless,
Annunciata
J
jrabs
Guest
I am confused - even after reading all your insightful posts. What would be the purpose of the devil inflicting the stigmata?
It would seem to me that this would make the recipient even more devout, religious and obedient - so the devil’s act would be self defeating.
It would seem to me that this would make the recipient even more devout, religious and obedient - so the devil’s act would be self defeating.
T
Teresa9
Guest
Thank you for your kind words Annunciata.
God Bless you always
Teresa
God Bless you always
Teresa
C
Chickamauga
Guest
And how. The year 2003 was the worst of my life. A seemingly endless parade of deaths of loved ones and betrayal by previously trusted family members. It was a time of almost insurmountable grief… emotional pain so bad it was almost physical. I hit rock bottom with nowhere to turn but to Christ. Without that purging, that redemptive period of suffering, I would not now be in RCIA classes and well on my way to becoming a member of the Catholic Church. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ.
M
mark_a
Guest
Has any one else seen The History Channel’s piece on stigmata?
An interesting point is that non-Christians share this phenomenon.
Another is that the stigmata wounds tend to mimmic the wounds shown on an image the person is familiar with.
This info is not intended to negate the reality of stigmata.
An interesting point is that non-Christians share this phenomenon.
Another is that the stigmata wounds tend to mimmic the wounds shown on an image the person is familiar with.
This info is not intended to negate the reality of stigmata.
B
bear06
Guest
Those who receive the stigmata are well scrutinized before the Church says it’s from God. I would think that this would be because it could be faked or come from the devil.
Doesn’t this article have the story of St. Teresa of Avila incorrect? I thought she said this when she was thrown from her donkey into a river.
Doesn’t this article have the story of St. Teresa of Avila incorrect? I thought she said this when she was thrown from her donkey into a river.
S
snuffy
Guest
I am not sure your info is correct.
I’ve never heard of any of these saints whipping themselves.
I thought God allowed these saints to suffer some kind of his wounds…The stigmata…Saint Rita had one thorn in her forehead. Yes, Padre Pio had the wounds of Christ in his hand and side.
I also believe that these saints asked the Lord to allow them to suffer more…for the conversion of the world. Ask and you shall receive.
But once again, I don’t recall reading anywhere of these saints whipping themselves??
Jeanette
I’ve never heard of any of these saints whipping themselves.
I thought God allowed these saints to suffer some kind of his wounds…The stigmata…Saint Rita had one thorn in her forehead. Yes, Padre Pio had the wounds of Christ in his hand and side.
I also believe that these saints asked the Lord to allow them to suffer more…for the conversion of the world. Ask and you shall receive.
But once again, I don’t recall reading anywhere of these saints whipping themselves??
Jeanette
C
CARose
Guest
Yes, a number of saints have practiced self-mortification. I don’t know specifically about these saints, although I do know that St. Rose of Lima did, as did St. Kateri Tekakwitha both did.
I believe that Spiritual Directors these days would not be into allowing such practices, but at their particular time in history, it was a way of demonstrating their commitment to Christ and their desire to participate in His suffering.
CARose
I believe that Spiritual Directors these days would not be into allowing such practices, but at their particular time in history, it was a way of demonstrating their commitment to Christ and their desire to participate in His suffering.
CARose
N
NightRider
Guest
I don’t see how the stigmata could be coming from satan, as I have always been taught that the stigmata are holy. And I don’t believe they are self-generated either, they are a gift from God for the person to experience Christ’s physical suffering directly and to increase their holiness.
Where did this thread’s quote come from?? Pray tell us!!
God bless!
Where did this thread’s quote come from?? Pray tell us!!
God bless!
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
From an article that I read authored by Mary Ann Collins who claims to be a former Catholic nun.
- Status