Stigmata

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Ah, interestingly, looking into the etymology a little more, they did have a word for “palm”, as in “the palm of the hand”.

From Cicero:
Zeno quidem ille a quo disciplina Stoicorum est manu demonstrare solebat quid inter has artis interesset; nam cum compresserat digitos pugnumque fecerat, dialecticam aiebat eiusmodi esse; cum autem deduxerat et manum dilataverat, palmae illius similem eloquentiam esse dicebat.

which in English is:

Zeno, the founder of the Stoic school, used to give an object lesson of the difference between the two arts; clenching his fist he said logic was like that; relaxing and extending his hand, he said eloquence was like the open palm.

But if you look at your psalmist, Psalm 22, for example, has:

Quoniam circumdederunt me canes multi concilium malignantium obsedit me foderunt manus meas et pedes meos

Which is another instance of them choosing the word “manus” instead of “palma”, “palmae”.

Perhaps someone with more time might go through the Gospel accounts and see if “manus” or “palmae” was ever specified. But, to recap, “manus” covers “elbow-to-fingertip” and there are specific words for palm, finger, and thumb, but I’m not seeing any evidence of a word to designate the wrist joint specifically.
 
midori said:
Ah, interestingly, looking into the etymology a little more, they did have a word for “palm”, as in “the palm of the hand”.

From Cicero:
Zeno quidem ille a quo disciplina Stoicorum est manu demonstrare solebat quid inter has artis interesset; nam cum compresserat digitos pugnumque fecerat, dialecticam aiebat eiusmodi esse; cum autem deduxerat et manum dilataverat, palmae illius similem eloquentiam esse dicebat.

which in English is:

Zeno, the founder of the Stoic school, used to give an object lesson of the difference between the two arts; clenching his fist he said logic was like that; relaxing and extending his hand, he said eloquence was like the open palm.

But if you look at your psalmist, Psalm 22, for example, has:

Quoniam circumdederunt me canes multi concilium malignantium obsedit me foderunt manus meas et pedes meos

Which is another instance of them choosing the word “manus” instead of “palma”, “palmae”.

Perhaps someone with more time might go through the Gospel accounts and see if “manus” or “palmae” was ever specified. But, to recap, “manus” covers “elbow-to-fingertip” and there are specific words for palm, finger, and thumb, but I’m not seeing any evidence of a word to designate the wrist joint specifically.
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I thought Jesus was nailed through the wrists but an article I read said that there are too many bones in the wrist and they’d be broken if He was nailed there.

I just sent an email to a doctor I’ve corresponded with before to ask his opinion.
 
thistle said:
I don’t and there is no proof it is authentic.

Also a person’s faith should not be so weak they get fanatic about things like this.
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Whose fanatic? And how do you get to judge a persons faith?
 
midori said:
There have been about 500 reported cases of stigmata, but you are aware that pretty much every stigmatic has been unique in one way or another, right? So should we not believe in stigmatics because this person’s manifestation of stigmata doesn’t match that person’s stigmata?

For example—
  • St. Francis never bled from his hands and feet; only his side. He was the only stigmatic to have nails appear in his wounds, but they were nails made of his flesh.
  • Juana of the Cross’ wounds gave forth the smell of perfume
  • St. Christina of Stommeln had wounds in her hand, feet, forehead, and side. They bled ever Easter.
  • Maria Domenica Lazzeri would receive the stigmata every Thursday evening to Friday afternoon, but would recover completely by Friday evening.
  • Catherine of Siena had hers, but prayed that they become invisible. They later became visible once again upon her deathbed.
  • Rita of Cascia had a forehead wound. People would sometimes observe a light coming from it.
  • Bl. Osanna of Mantua received her stigmata, but they were very faint during her life. They became very distinct after her death.
  • Padre Pio’s stigmata disappeared without a scar in the last few days of his death.
  • Teresa of Avila had a transverberation, which is a stigmata of the heart, like a puncture.
  • St. Catherine d’Ricci had the stigmata all the time, but relived the Passion every Thursday/Friday.
  • Ven. Catherine Anne Emmerich had an external wound over her heart, and an internal 3-inch wound upon her heart in the shape of a cross.
  • Marie-Rose Ferron had stigmata, including the shoulder stigmata, which manifested as a red blotch, whereas the others were more like scars.
  • Therese Neumann had 45 distinguishable marks from the Passion, and suffered the Passion an estimated 750 times during her life.
  • Passitea of Siena had the usual stigmata, and then received an invisible heart stigmata. She said that her heart had been removed during the course of this mystical union. 23 years later, after her death, her critical bishop asked for an autopsy. Her heart had the outer wall, but the inner bits were only a bit of dried muscle.
So, if you sort of look at it from the perspective that we’re dealing with spiritual truths, which is much bigger/far less limited than mere medical truth, or scientific truth, or historic truth. The whole point of the Shroud, and of Stigmatics in general, are to call to mind the Passion and Suffering of Jesus, in order to save souls. Few of us have the spiritual chops to deal with what a genuine mystic experiences. If you’re looking at the Shroud, and mentally comparing it to stigmatics A, B, and C, and deciding that none of the four match, so they all must be fake… Or even that, “Hey, medical truth sez blood doesn’t smell like flowers, so this stigmatic is obviously a fake” or “Hey, scientific truth sez he should bleed to death, and he hasn’t, so he’s fake, too”… it’s missing the point.

And for what it’s worth, I looked up the word “wrist” in my Cassell’s. It says “prima palmae pars (Cels.)”. Presumably, that’s an attribution to the 2nd. c. author, Celsus (Kelsos/Κέλσος), who was famous for Origen’s rebuttal to his work, in “Contra Celsum”. I’ve read that during the time the Gospels were composed (1st c., around 70-80-90) that they didn’t actually have a word for “wrist” in Latin/Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic. The word “hand” (“manus”) covered pretty much everything that a cubit measured-- from the forefinger to the elbow. (They did have a distinction between fingers and thumbs, though.) The Latin “carpus” comes from the Greek “karpos”, which seems to usually mean “fruit” during our period, but may possibly have come from the Indo-European base “kwerp-” which means “to turn”. But according to the etymology I’m reading, you don’t get “carpus” as “wrist” until the 17th century. So it took about 1500 years between Celsus identifying the wrist as “prima palmae pars” and modern anatomists to say, “Hey, let’s call this a carpus.” I don’t have sufficient Greek to sift through the fruit vs. wrist meanings of καρπός, but someone with better linguistics than I have can probably find the first cited usage of καρπός in an anatomical sense. But the second point is, I’m 99.9% sure you’re reading your Bible in translation, and first-century authors didn’t really have the same nuance of vocabulary that you and I have with 21st-c. English…

tl;dr: #1: Spiritual truth. #2: Etymology.
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Interesting post. Thanks for the mini education
 
Waynec said:
Whose fanatic? And how do you get to judge a persons faith?
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I did not judge any individual’s faith. I made a general comment.

It was Pope Benedict who said people should not be looking for signs, revelations etc and that our faith should be strong without that.
One or the other of these things might give an individual a lift but our faith is absolutely not dependent on any of these and nobody is a lesser Catholic for not believing in any of these.
 
thistle said:
I did not judge any individual’s faith. I made a general comment.

It was Pope Benedict who said people should not be looking for signs, revelations etc and that our faith should be strong without that.
One or the other of these things might give an individual a lift but our faith is absolutely not dependent on any of these and nobody is a lesser Catholic for not believing in any of these.
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The question was just one of curiosity and not faith.
 
thistle said:
I don’t and there is no proof it is authentic.

Also a person’s faith should not be so weak they get fanatic about things like this.
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Hi!

…proof?

…do you mean, Jesus did not sign the Shroud or do you mean science cannot reproduce it hundreds of years past its “alchemist’s’” creation?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
thistle said:
I did not judge any individual’s faith. I made a general comment.

It was Pope Benedict who said people should not be looking for signs, revelations etc and that our faith should be strong without that.
One or the other of these things might give an individual a lift but our faith is absolutely not dependent on any of these and nobody is a lesser Catholic for not believing in any of these.
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Hi!

…the issue is not about fanaticism or need of “icons/symbols” to Believe… the issue is that if one is Catholic an item such as the Shroud of Turin should not be set aside because “science” claims it is not authentic… can science explain what transpired at the moment of Jesus’ Resurrection?.. the best argument science offers is that it cannot be duplicated and that the image (which is not a painting/stain…) must have been produced by a high yield short-time release of energy… these educated guesses only brings us to what Scriptures have already stated: a blinding light preceded Jesus’ Resurrection!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
Hi!

…the issue is not about fanaticism or need of “icons/symbols” to Believe… the issue is that if one is Catholic an item such as the Shroud of Turin should not be set aside because “science” claims it is not authentic… can science explain what transpired at the moment of Jesus’ Resurrection?.. the best argument science offers is that it cannot be duplicated and that the image (which is not a painting/stain…) must have been produced by a high yield short-time release of energy… these educated guesses only brings us to what Scriptures have already stated: a blinding light preceded Jesus’ Resurrection!

Maran atha!

Angel
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Catholics are free to believe or not believe if it is genuine. It should make no difference to anyone’s faith.
It has not been dated as 2000 years old and all the nonsense about oh well the piece they tested must have somehow been corrupted is meaningless.

I do not believe it is genuine and nor do I have to but I do object to people (not you) trying to ram down my throat that if I don’t believe then there is something wrong with me. These people are the fanatics!
 
thistle said:
Catholics are free to believe or not believe if it is genuine. It should make no difference to anyone’s faith.
It has not been dated as 2000 years old and all the nonsense about oh well the piece they tested must have somehow been corrupted is meaningless.

I do not believe it is genuine and nor do I have to but I do object to people (not you) trying to ram down my throat that if I don’t believe then there is something wrong with me. These people are the fanatics!
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Hi!

Thanks for your response!

I understand what you are stating… and I do concur with you that our Faith is not dependent upon scientific or archeological findings.

I also concur with you that the Church does not demand that Catholics hold everything as “proof” or that Catholics “believe” everything and in everything (icons/crafts…); …fanaticism does tend to demand a blanket faith–thank God for freewill!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
thistle said:
Catholics are free to believe or not believe if it is genuine. It should make no difference to anyone’s faith.
It has not been dated as 2000 years old and all the nonsense about oh well the piece they tested must have somehow been corrupted is meaningless.

I do not believe it is genuine and nor do I have to but I do object to people (not you) trying to ram down my throat that if I don’t believe then there is something wrong with me. These people are the fanatics!
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Did you catch this?
SHROUD A NEW ASTONISHING PHENOMENON DISCOVERED IN THIS FIND
 
I have been viewing the 5-part presentation on the shroud, by EWTN’s Johnnette Benkovic. The presenter is Dr. J. Wayne Phillips, who holds a graduate degree from the Vatican, cum laude, in Shroud Studies. The Vatican course was a year long! - - no short skip through the park. All five programs, being only a half-hour long, are listed on the top right of the link.

After viewing this series, I challenge anyone whomsoever to say that this is not authentic. Especially interesting was yesterday’s program (day 3) which debunks the falsity of the carbon 14 discoveries, which “proved” that the shroud is a fake. New data proves otherwise.
 
Edit time was over to add comments for day two.

This showed intimate details of Jesus’ extreme sufferings as revealed by the Shroud, and also showed why the nails could only be in the wrists, not the palm.

The Jews forbade any more than 40 lashes in a scourging, but the Shroud shows 120 of these, and indicated the barbarity of the Romans. Jesus had lost 1/3 of His blood in this scourging. The crown of thorns was not a neatly woven circular crown, but a **whole cap **of thorns that punctured His scalp as the soldiers beat Him on the head.It is an exemplary meditation for Good Friday.
 
Sorry folks, someone pointed out to me that Women of Grace requires a subscription to view these episodes. My apologies. :o
 
Sirach2 said:
Sorry folks, someone pointed out to me that Women of Grace requires a subscription to view these episodes. My apologies. :o
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Hi!

…sometimes they have repeat airing–if you find that they do, please post it on this thread!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
Hi!

…sometimes they have repeat airing–if you find that they do, please post it on this thread!
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I believe this will be a repeat some day, since the series shown this week is on its third go-round. Maybe next year during Holy Week? EWTN sells the DVD in its catalog, but it is rather expensive, unless you are solidly interested in this study.
 
Sirach2 said:
I believe this will be a repeat some day, since the series shown this week is on its third go-round. Maybe next year during Holy Week? EWTN sells the DVD in its catalog, but it is rather expensive, unless you are solidly interested in this study.
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Hi!

Thanks!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I just viewed my pre-recorded tape of episode 5. I thought I wouldn’t see it since EWTN was airing specials for Good Friday, but as luck would have it, my DVR recorded the 11:30 PM show. This was awesome, since Dr. Phillips showed slides of the “sudarium” (the napkin that was folded up in a separate place in the tomb - Jn. 20:7)

This may be venerated only 3 times a year in the San Salvador Cathedral in Oviedo, Spain where it is kept. Sept. 14 (Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross), Sept. 21, and Easter.

Of special interest is the overlay of the sudarium over the shroud, which matches the stain in the shroud, as being from the same body. There is no image on the sudarium, but it is stained with pulmonary edema fluid and blood, also AB positive. The dust on the nose of the sudarium equals the identical dust on the shroud, which places it on Calvary.

As Dr. Phillips explained the medical reasons for the fluid on the sudarium. They were able to determine that when Jesus died, his head rested on his right shoulder and the arm was bent slightly. It is believed that when Jesus died, they covered His face while Joseph was petitioning the body from Pilate, which took about an hour. That would explain the amount of fluid on the face cloth.

This information was new to me, and it seemed that some might also appreciate reading about it.

Happy Easter, everyone!
 
buffalo said:
Did you catch this?
SHROUD A NEW ASTONISHING PHENOMENON DISCOVERED IN THIS FIND
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Everyone should watch this. It helps explain the nails too.

In addition, the nails can be seen on the shroud, along with the cubes, ornamental chains and the crown of thorns. The shroud contains many images as Jesus begins moving, much like time lapse. Also shows the “strap” used to remove Jesus from the cross. The radiation that formed the shroud came from Jesus and radiated outward.

This video is fascinating and there is no forger that could have done this.
 
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