Stigmata

[jack_hawkins]

I’m not quite sure where to post this. Has there been any authoritative medical investigation of the stigmata (in the religious usage of the word), or indeed any medical literature on the subject at all?

 

[DallasCatholic]

I’m not quite sure where to post this. Has there been any authoritative medical investigation of the stigmata (in the religious usage of the word), or indeed any medical literature on the subject at all?

In reading St. Padre Pio’s biography I believe that it was noted that at least one Italian doctor examined him regarding the stigmata. Perhaps someone else knows the name of the Doctor and can google to see if there are any publications associated with him.

 

[mchale]

There have been studies of the subject, but ultimately, except in cases where there is obvious fraud involved, it is impossible to determine the exact cause of individual cases of the stigmata. There are essentially though two basic possibilities; the stigmata is caused by God or it is somehow caused by the individual’s mind. I don’t think there would ever be any effective way to ultimately ascribe all the stigmata to one category or another; rather some may indeed by induced by the mind, but others, I have faith, are from God.

–
Bill

 

[jack_hawkins]

I don’t see how haemorrhage can be caused by the “mind”
there will be either a vascular malformation or self-inflicted trauma more likely if you’re looking for a “natural” explanation

 

[Larry1700]

Padre Pio is the first to come to my mind. I did a **quick **internet search for documentation, and found a couple of photos, but no medical documentation. However the Capuchin priests at Pietrelcina can be reached via email at info@padrepio.it . Perhaps they would answer your question.

I’ve been interested in Padre Pio for several years, but have not yet had time to read much about him. One thing I’m curious about regarding the stigmata is, why is it on the palms of his hands? Aren’t the Shroud of Turin’s wounds on the wrists? It’s my understanding that the wrists were used for crucifixions instead of the palms, because the palms couldn’t bear the weight without tearing. If someone knows differently, please correct me.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Padre Pio is the first to come to my mind. I did a **quick **internet search for documentation, and found a couple of photos, but no medical documentation. However the Capuchin priests at Pietrelcina can be reached via email at info@padrepio.it . Perhaps they would answer your question.

I’ve been interested in Padre Pio for several years, but have not yet had time to read much about him. One thing I’m curious about regarding the stigmata is, why is it on the palms of his hands? Aren’t the Shroud of Turin’s wounds on the wrists? It’s my understanding that the wrists were used for crucifixions instead of the palms, because the palms couldn’t bear the weight without tearing. If someone knows differently, please correct me.

the two versions I have heard is between the radius and ulna (distal forearm) , and between the carpal boes of the wrist proper
I have tried searching PubMed and medical textbooks but haven’t found anything so far which is intriguing considering some of the odd conditions I’ve come across like ainhum etc

 

[mchale]

I don’t see how haemorrhage can be caused by the “mind”
there will be either a vascular malformation or self-inflicted trauma more likely if you’re looking for a “natural” explanation

The mind has a powerful influence on the body. Its the reason why medicines have to tested with a placebo. Subjects who believe they are getting a power medicine often experience a real benefit, even if they are not actually receiving any medicine. If the mind can have a roll in shrinking cancer tumors, then I see no reason why it should be ruled out that it could cause a hemorage.

Remember, I am not talking about self-inflicted wounds here, I already admited that some “cases” of stigmata where those. Vascular malformation does not seem a compelling argument for me because the stigmata wounds tend to be a specific set of wounds. A person with sores on his hands but not his feet for example probably would not be cited as a stigmatic.

–
Bill

 

[mchale]

Padre Pio is the first to come to my mind. I did a **quick **internet search for documentation, and found a couple of photos, but no medical documentation. However the Capuchin priests at Pietrelcina can be reached via email at info@padrepio.it . Perhaps they would answer your question.

I’ve been interested in Padre Pio for several years, but have not yet had time to read much about him. One thing I’m curious about regarding the stigmata is, why is it on the palms of his hands? Aren’t the Shroud of Turin’s wounds on the wrists? It’s my understanding that the wrists were used for crucifixions instead of the palms, because the palms couldn’t bear the weight without tearing. If someone knows differently, please correct me.

I think we need to consider what purpose the stigmata might serve. In general, I believe those who were genuine stigmatics received it to help unite them to the suffering of Christ. A secondary purpose, it seems to me, might be to bolster the faith of believers. Neither purpose ultimately requires a precise recreation of the the wounds that Christ actually experienced. Indeed it seems to me, that the most effective experience would be one that most closely matched what the stigmatic and the faithful perceived as Christ’s wounds.

–
Bill

 

[Larry1700]

the two versions I have heard is between the radius and ulna (distal forearm) , and between the carpal boes of the wrist proper
I have tried searching PubMed and medical textbooks but haven’t found anything so far which is intriguing considering some of the odd conditions I’ve come across like ainhum etc

Sorry jack hawkins, you’ll need to help me out a bit. I see you’re a physician, so you use this terminology all the time. I had to study A&P as a prerequisite for Polysomnography Tech classes, so I’m with you on the radius, carpal bones and ulna, but what is the “ainhum” ?

Also, it would seem difficult to pound a spike through the carpal bone area. Am I wrong?

 

[jack_hawkins]

The mind has a powerful influence on the body. Its the reason why medicines have to tested with a placebo. Subjects who believe they are getting a power medicine often experience a real benefit, even if they are not actually receiving any medicine. If the mind can have a roll in shrinking cancer tumors, then I see no reason why it should be ruled out that it could cause a hemorage.

Remember, I am not talking about self-inflicted wounds here, I already admited that some “cases” of stigmata where those. Vascular malformation does not seem a compelling argument for me because the stigmata wounds tend to be a specific set of wounds. A person with sores on his hands but not his feet for example probably would not be cited as a stigmatic.

–
Bill

Actually you are misinterpreting the use of control arms in studies, which these days are usually NOT against a placebo but standard treatment. And no the mind doesn’t have a role in shrinking tumours, that is a myth.
So stigmata would not be caused by the “mind” alone. I can’t quite see your objection to a vascular malformation as a “natural explanation” - esp with the large volumes of blood reportedly lost by some?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Sorry jack hawkins, you’ll need to help me out a bit. I see you’re a physician, so you use this terminology all the time. I had to study A&P as a prerequisite for Polysomnography Tech classes, so I’m with you on the radius, carpal bones and ulna, but what is the “ainhum” ?

Also, it would seem difficult to pound a spike through the carpal bone area. Am I wrong?

sorry I digressed rather there - ainhum is a bizarre and rare condition where a toe falls off - thought to be related to walking barefoot
pounding a spike through the carpus…
the honest answer is I don’t know - there are certainly gaps there, and it would hold a spike securely

 

[Spirithound]

The mind has a powerful influence on the body. Its the reason why medicines have to tested with a placebo. Subjects who believe they are getting a power medicine often experience a real benefit, even if they are not actually receiving any medicine. If the mind can have a roll in shrinking cancer tumors, then I see no reason why it should be ruled out that it could cause a hemorage.

A tumor, or virus, or whatnot, may be naturally fought by the body. The psychosomatic effect here is an augmentation of the body’s natural defenses. I don’t think there are any healthy, natural reasons why we might start bleeding.

 

[angiegirl67]

Rhonda Wise was a stigmata she is mentioned in Mother Angelica book that was written by Raymond Arroyo. There is even a picture of her in the book.

 

[4loveofJesus]

May God’s peace, love and mercy be with you all!

There’s a book entitled “They Bore the Wounds of Christ, The mystery of the Scared Stigmata” by Michael Freze, S.F.O. that has a comprehensive treatment on the subject and has detailed account of the lives of authenticated stigmatist including pictures and doctor’s testimonies of their examination of such cases such as St. Padre Pio.

Hope that helps. God bless!

Blessed be Jesus and Mary!

 

[Caesar]

I’ve been interested in Padre Pio for several years, but have not yet had time to read much about him. One thing I’m curious about regarding the stigmata is, why is it on the palms of his hands? Aren’t the Shroud of Turin’s wounds on the wrists? It’s my understanding that the wrists were used for crucifixions instead of the palms, because the palms couldn’t bear the weight without tearing. If someone knows differently, please correct me.

I have been told that it wasnt the wrists either. Rather the nails were driven into the heel of the hand. If that is done, then then nails will come out in the center of the hand on the other side (take a look at your own hand to see how that would line up)- such as what we see in this photograph of the Saint himself:

ewtn.com/padrepio/images/images/pio_young.jpg

Also, it is important to remember that the nails were not necessary. The arms of Christ would have been tied to the crossbeam, so nailing His hands to the wood was just for extra pain and humiliation.

 

[Larry1700]

…such as what we see in this photograph of the Saint himself:

ewtn.com/padrepio/images/images/pio_young.jpg

Thanks. I had forgotten about that photo. It looks like the wounds are through the carpals.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t see how haemorrhage can be caused by the “mind”
there will be either a vascular malformation or self-inflicted trauma more likely if you’re looking for a “natural” explanation

This is not at all uncommon in cases of somatization. People can paralyze themselves (one of Freud’s early cases that got him to move from neurology into psychiatry), bleed, spontaneously generate symptoms of pregnancy, and all manner of conditions. Have you seen the videos of the young Syrian woman that are under study? The wounds appear when she is in an ecstatic state, then resolve by themselves. The Dr.'s at her bedside believed she would need stitches.

 

[Spirithound]

This is not at all uncommon in cases of somatization. People can paralyze themselves (one of Freud’s early cases that got him to move from neurology into psychiatry), bleed, spontaneously generate symptoms of pregnancy, and all manner of conditions. Have you seen the videos of the young Syrian woman that are under study? The wounds appear when she is in an ecstatic state, then resolve by themselves. The Dr.'s at her bedside believed she would need stitches.

If she’s in ecstasy, then it’s God who is giving her the stigmata. Paralysis can be caused by a neural condition, I don’t know which symptoms of pregnancy you are referring to, but they are probably hormonal, and thus ultimately psychological. Bleeding requires either divine intervention, or a sharp implement. It is not psychological.

 

[guanophore]

If she’s in ecstasy, then it’s God who is giving her the stigmata. Paralysis can be caused by a neural condition, I don’t know which symptoms of pregnancy you are referring to, but they are probably hormonal, and thus ultimately psychological. Bleeding requires either divine intervention, or a sharp implement. It is not psychological.

I will agree to disagree with you on this point, since you may not be well educated in somatization disorder. Bleeding most certainly can be psychogenic. Paralysis can also be psychogenic (not the result of any physical disorder). However, I believe that the people that are in ecstasy do receive stigmata from God.

 

[Spirithound]

I will agree to disagree with you on this point, since you may not be well educated in somatization disorder. Bleeding most certainly can be psychogenic. Paralysis can also be psychogenic (not the result of any physical disorder). However, I believe that the people that are in ecstasy do receive stigmata from God.

Ok…i shall have to research psychogenic bleeding then…after exams are over