Still confused about Mary

[sandmountainsli]

I thought those in heaven are cheering the return of the lost sheep.

I thought we had a cloud of witnesses cheering us on.

I thought there are prayers offfered up as incense, like those described in Revelation.

Or it could be just me.

How could one truly be happy in Heaven while watching the sufferings on Earth? How could one be happy in Heaven watching loved ones go to Hell? Just doesn’t add up does it?
WP

 

[LilyM]

Presumably you’d know WHY those in Hell are there - and that they essentially sent themselves there. And you’d see all the good and loving things people do.

So no, no problems.

 

[sandmountainsli]

Presumably you’d know WHY those in Hell are there - and that they essentially sent themselves there. And you’d see all the good and loving things people do.

So no, no problems.

I see…so if you KNEW that your father, mother or children were burning in Hell but it was their own fault but you also knew I gave a jacket to a homeless shelter you would be gleeful and have no sadness for your family? How odd.
WP

 

[ricko]

Cheddar,

You love your wife/husband, your parents, your brother and your sister. You don’t love just one person at one time do you?

We love Christ and his mother. We love Christ as our Savior and we love Mary as his mother, both at the same time but in different ways. By honoring his mother we honor him.

 

[NotWorthy]

How could one truly be happy in Heaven while watching the sufferings on Earth? How could one be happy in Heaven watching loved ones go to Hell? Just doesn’t add up does it?
WP

When I get there, I"ll tell you!!!

But seriously, how could this be? I don’t know, but it is Scriptural, so you’re gonna have to tell me how it can’t be.

 

[Sixtus]

asked them which came first, the rosary or the daily mass.

I thought ‘Monring Prayer’ from the Daily Office came first! Then Mass then Rosary. That is the order I would put them.

I am beginning to understand that a lot of non-catholics think that someone kneeling before a statue are actually ‘worshipping it’!!

That of course is not only sinful but a grave sin against God-idolatry for God said to Moses ‘thou shalt have no graven images before me’.

Actually, they are what they are, blind, dumb, deaf, clay models [unless they are made of fibreglass]

They are actually icons which are intended as a focal point in meditation. [Buddhists use an orange]. When meditating, it is easy to be distracted by things going on. A focal point serves so it cannot be distracted by anything else. This then frees the mind to concentrate on the subjective of Worshipping Almighty God.

Now it may be that one might chose to meditate on say the Holy Family going to Bethlehem. At Advent, one might use a statue of HVM to meditate on her immaculate conception, on the family journey to Behlehem or the annunciation. If Mary is the mother of Jesus and He is God, then in a sense she is the mother of God incarnate. So why not?

I have never felt drawn towards Marion devotions. Two years ago, I saw a statue in our cathedral shop of Mary. I was surprised that a year later they still had it. It was a rather rough cast [intended to be simplistic] statue. I bought it. Living in a home once lived in by a retired priest [and still have the unit he used for his daily mass] decided to put the statue on the place where the Blessed Sacrament had stood. I had been looking for somthing to put there.

Quite unexpectedly, every time I pass that unit, I see the statue and when ever I see it, feel the need to praise God in the Holy Trinity. I have never knelt before it and prayed to Mary [perhaps I should] but I often kneel before it and praise God. In fact I feel a compelling urge to praise God, too difficult to resist. I have now put a chair there and often sit there when I do Morning and Evening Prayer from the Daily Office.

That is I am told what Mary does for us. I can witness and testify to that.

Praise God

 

[Peter_DiMitri]

I’m always confused by the Protestant notion that Marian devotion detracts from Jesus Christ.

That’s like saying loving my mother somehow detracts from loving my father. It makes no sense.

Mary and the saints are not competition for Jesus. Mary acts as intercession just as she did at Cana.

There is one King and that is Jesus. But Jesus, like any Monarch, has a court as well. He has a prime minister (the Pope) and the Queen Mother (Mary). None of these detract from his Kingship. They only glorify him all the more.

 

[kellie]

Hi cheddarsox

I understand where u are coming from, and I just thought I would share with u how I pray and why I love Mary.

I don’t kneel before statues of Jesus or Mary personally, not that I think its wrong, but I find it easier to pray with my eyes closed, so it dont really matter where I am

I think of God as my Father, Jesus as my older Brother, and Mary as my Mother, heavenly ones that is.

So quite often when I am troubled or worried, I turn to these 3 depending on the nature of my worry.

I find myself talking to God more when I am upset with the world and things such as war etc.

I find myself talking to Jesus when I need personal help, e.g when I am having bad days with my depression.

And I find myself talking to Mary quite a bit, as I am a mother of a 9 year old son, and I often say to Mary, how on earth did u handle this situation (depending on the situation I am experiencing with my son at the time) with your son Jesus ??

It is quite comforting knowing as a woman, that I have Jesus’ Mother to turn to in times of need.
After all, wouldnt all mothers like to be just like her.

Sometimes I just smile, knowing She is watching me struggle with daily life as a mother, and knowing she is there to guide me.

It really is a comfort. I think thats why a lot of people pray to her. Most of us love our mothers and they really are the first people we bond with when we are born.

Just my thoughts anyway

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

It is not a concern, it is a lack of understanding, what the personal experience is of those who have a devotion to Mary. I was a Catholic, and worked on fostering a devotion to the Blessed Mother, but without the fruits. I want to know, from those who have been more successful than I , how it works for them.

Maybe that is like asking a person “how do you know when you’re in love…” but…I’m asking.

cheddar

Ok. I see what you mean.

Are you familiar with the Catholic concept of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant?

I found this to be a real eye-opener for me. It helped me fall into a filial understanding of her as a child honoring their mother does.

 

[cheddarsox]

I thought ‘Monring Prayer’ from the Daily Office came first! Then Mass then Rosary. That is the order I would put them.

I am beginning to understand that a lot of non-catholics think that someone kneeling before a statue are actually ‘worshipping it’!!

That of course is not only sinful but a grave sin against God-idolatry for God said to Moses ‘thou shalt have no graven images before me’.

Actually, they are what they are, blind, dumb, deaf, clay models [unless they are made of fibreglass]

They are actually icons which are intended as a focal point in meditation. [Buddhists use an orange]. When meditating, it is easy to be distracted by things going on. A focal point serves so it cannot be distracted by anything else. This then frees the mind to concentrate on the subjective of Worshipping Almighty God.

Now it may be that one might chose to meditate on say the Holy Family going to Bethlehem. At Advent, one might use a statue of HVM to meditate on her immaculate conception, on the family journey to Behlehem or the annunciation. If Mary is the mother of Jesus and He is God, then in a sense she is the mother of God incarnate. So why not?

I have never felt drawn towards Marion devotions. Two years ago, I saw a statue in our cathedral shop of Mary. I was surprised that a year later they still had it. It was a rather rough cast [intended to be simplistic] statue. I bought it. Living in a home once lived in by a retired priest [and still have the unit he used for his daily mass] decided to put the statue on the place where the Blessed Sacrament had stood. I had been looking for somthing to put there.

Quite unexpectedly, every time I pass that unit, I see the statue and when ever I see it, feel the need to praise God in the Holy Trinity. I have never knelt before it and prayed to Mary [perhaps I should] but I often kneel before it and praise God. In fact I feel a compelling urge to praise God, too difficult to resist. I have now put a chair there and often sit there when I do Morning and Evening Prayer from the Daily Office.

That is I am told what Mary does for us. I can witness and testify to that.

Praise God

Thanks Sixtus,

This is the kind of personal story that helps me understand better both how Marian devotion is a help to many, and a stumbling block to some. (like myself).

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

Hi cheddarsox

I understand where u are coming from, and I just thought I would share with u how I pray and why I love Mary.

I don’t kneel before statues of Jesus or Mary personally, not that I think its wrong, but I find it easier to pray with my eyes closed, so it dont really matter where I am

I think of God as my Father, Jesus as my older Brother, and Mary as my Mother, heavenly ones that is.

So quite often when I am troubled or worried, I turn to these 3 depending on the nature of my worry.

I find myself talking to God more when I am upset with the world and things such as war etc.

I find myself talking to Jesus when I need personal help, e.g when I am having bad days with my depression.

And I find myself talking to Mary quite a bit, as I am a mother of a 9 year old son, and I often say to Mary, how on earth did u handle this situation (depending on the situation I am experiencing with my son at the time) with your son Jesus ??

It is quite comforting knowing as a woman, that I have Jesus’ Mother to turn to in times of need.
After all, wouldnt all mothers like to be just like her.

Sometimes I just smile, knowing She is watching me struggle with daily life as a mother, and knowing she is there to guide me.

It really is a comfort. I think thats why a lot of people pray to her. Most of us love our mothers and they really are the first people we bond with when we are born.

Just my thoughts anyway

When I was a child, I looked at things very much like this. I thought that it was neat that the church had provided (that was my childish conclusion) a helper for people in different needs. Mary/mother, Jesus/friend or brother, God/ Father.

I have a mother with a very strong personality. She raised us nearly on her own as my father worked 16 hour night shifts. I had 5 siblings and a neighborhood of friends…so I fostered an especially closer relationship to God the father, as I so rarely got to see my own father. That concept of God most met my needs. I admit to not fostering much of a relationship with Christ or Mary when I was very young.

After I got into Catholic school and was preparing for the sacraments and learned to read the Catholic books we had around the house, I learned more of the Church’s teachings, and did try to foster a closer love and walk with Christ, and the Virgin Mary.

I developed a devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. As it was something that we always had paintings of around the house, and it was how I “pictured” Christ in my mind. It was an image I could focus on (as some have explained on this thread). But I was never able to get a handle on Marian devotion, and was sometimes shocked and puzzled by the fervor of such in the people around me.

This may very well be due to the fact that I had such a strong mother that I never felt the need to turn to an outside mother figure. Or may have to do with conflicted feelings I have about my mother and her influence in my life. Maybe I was afraid to invite another “mother” in.

Throughout my life my relationship with the Divine has always been primarily through the Creator/Father concept. Admittantly, even my Sacred Heart devotion never amounted to much more than making me feel smug as a Catholic because I had a special devotion to keep me busy. (not in any way implying that is why people have these devotions, but when I was in high school, that was the role it filled for me, made me feel good about myself)

I did all the right Catholic things. Had my name buried at Fatima, wore the brown scapular, said the rosary and novenas, etc. but they never sunk in.

There were definitely many practices of faith that did sink in and deeply changed my life and soul. But I was always worried about those things that I couldn’t “get” that were mostly empty motions or distractions to me. I always wanted to just “get back to God”.

cheddar

 

[Peter_DiMitri]

I’d like to recommend the book **Hail Holy Queen **by Scott Hahn.

Hahn was a convert to Catholicism, and admitted to having major aversions to Mary.

Hahn is a great writer: easy-to-read, but very thoughtful and illuminating.

However, I caution you: to read one Scott Hahn book is often to end up reading all of Scott Hahn’s books! He’s that good.

 

[mercygate]

I see…so if you KNEW that your father, mother or children were burning in Hell but it was their own fault but you also knew I gave a jacket to a homeless shelter you would be gleeful and have no sadness for your family? How odd.
WP

Doesn’t Jesus know all of this? And on the eve of his agony, does he not speak of filling the disciples with his joy? And he relates this to loving perfectly. If we are made for love, specifically for the love of God – who loves us – how can this be removed from us when we are with him? Paul assures us that of the three things that abide – faith, hope, and love – love is the greatest. If that love is the love with which Christ loved us, how can the saints love otherwise?

 

[RCCDefender]

They are indeed, however I believe Mary and the other Sainted Dead of the church are well beyond their days of prayer.
They are with our Lord in Heaven and could care less what you, I and anyone else on earth are going thru as they do not know we exist.
That is why we must direct our prayers to the one who does know and care about our situation, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
WP

…but I believe that scripture holds that once the earthly life is done you are done with the earthly life, you need not worry about your living relatives or anyone else as you are passed to the other side.
WP

How could one truly be happy in Heaven while watching the sufferings on Earth? How could one be happy in Heaven watching loved ones go to Hell? Just doesn’t add up does it?
WP

Luke 15:7, 10 I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentence.
In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us

 

[MarysRoses]

If the early Christians had modified their worship in order not to confuse the pagans about cannibalism, where would that have taken them?

Um… Protestantism with its ‘only a symbol’ communion?

MarysRoses

 

[JayJ]

This is a fascinating topic. I am a convert to Catholicism, and I have always had a wonderful, close relationship with Christ. He is the center of my faith life. The whole “Mary thing” has always been very confusing for me as well. Mary is NOT God. Perhaps someone can tell me (honestly - I really want to know), why do I need Mary to bring me closer to Christ when I can go directly to Christ? I live in a very large parish and I know many Catholics whose entire faith life is based on Mary. This seems scary, and possibly worshipping false gods? I’m not trying to be inflammatory, but this is an honest issue I struggle with. I teach my children to pray to God/Jesus directly. I have always felt very close to Jesus and believe he listens directly to me, whether I am just praying for help, repenting of sins, etc.

Thoughts?

 

[eleonardo]

Depends…
Does he ever say: " Oh Holy Bible, Scripture of God, blessed be thy covers and thy invinsible spine! I praise thy ink and ask that thy holy pages be with me at the hour of my demise."
If so then he probably DOES
WP

I spilt coffee over my desk from reading this.

We shall just disagree on this one.
I don’t see the twain meeting. Now whattabout that Islam?
WP

 

[mercygate]

This is a fascinating topic. I am a convert to Catholicism, and I have always had a wonderful, close relationship with Christ. He is the center of my faith life. The whole “Mary thing” has always been very confusing for me as well. Mary is NOT God. Perhaps someone can tell me (honestly - I really want to know), why do I need Mary to bring me closer to Christ when I can go directly to Christ?

It is great that you have a good relationship with Christ – as you SHOULD have as a Catholic. Mary is his mother. I am one of those people who had the blessing of a fabulous mother-in-law. I can honestly say that she taught me a great deal about how to love her son. I loved her, and she loved me. My relationship with my spouse was definitely enanced by by relationship with her. As a convert myself, I see Mary in the same light.

I live in a very large parish and I know many Catholics whose entire faith life is based on Mary. This seems scary, and possibly worshipping false gods?

If we just take this statement at face value and assume it to be true (which you should not), then it would be a grave spiritual problem for those people – although you can’t go far from Jesus if you stick with his Mother. Still, it would be a distortion of Catholic teaching, and I am sure she would be saddened by it if that were the case.

I teach my children to pray to God/Jesus directly. I have always felt very close to Jesus and believe he listens directly to me, whether I am just praying for help, repenting of sins, etc.
Thoughts?The family of Jesus is very large. I hope you talk to your in-laws and your cousins and your brothers and sisters. That is not to place them in the same position as your husband/wife/father/mother but to include them in your love. They love you.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

This is a fascinating topic. I am a convert to Catholicism, and I have always had a wonderful, close relationship with Christ. He is the center of my faith life. The whole “Mary thing” has always been very confusing for me as well. Mary is NOT God. Perhaps someone can tell me (honestly - I really want to know), why do I need Mary to bring me closer to Christ when I can go directly to Christ? I live in a very large parish and I know many Catholics whose entire faith life is based on Mary. This seems scary, and possibly worshipping false gods? I’m not trying to be inflammatory, but this is an honest issue I struggle with. I teach my children to pray to God/Jesus directly. I have always felt very close to Jesus and believe he listens directly to me, whether I am just praying for help, repenting of sins, etc.

Thoughts?

I don’t think anyone needs Mary, in the sense that without her we cannot grow at all in our relationship with Jesus. However, we do need her, the one God chose to need.

It was put to me this way (sort of): we are like little babies - we can crawl to Jesus which will be harder and take longer or we can go to our mother Mary and she will pick us up and take us to her Son.

 

[bella5110]

JayJ,
Not to be disrespectful or anything, but if you are still confused about “Mary” after these threads here, I suggest you either pay attention and decipher what you are actually reading. Your heart may be simply shut out from her before Catholisism. Go to a Catholic bookstore, and buy books about her. There are wonderful books, one in particular is called “The Secret of Mary” by Louis DeMontfort. Read about her apparitions that are recorded over the centuries, the facts, the proof, the miracles, the conversions. God Bless.