Still grappling with certain issues in the Catechism

[Young_Thinker]

Hi everyone. Even though I know that they are, by all appearances, doctrine of the Church, I still struggle with the Holy See’s current position on certain issue, namely capital punishment, war, and torture (and some aspects of social justice, particularily as articulated by the U.S.C.C.B., but let’s not get into that right now!). Why is it that basically but the most dangerous murderers must be given bread and board by the prison system for the rest of their lives rather be promptly put to death like they deserve (I know that we are to be merciful, but sometimes I think, “Come on! These people did not show mercy to the people whom they raped and brutalized!”). In addition, why is it that we are more or less only to wage war if we are on the defense? I, for one, have trouble believing that war is all evil (and, admittedly, I do tend to view pacifism as a movement of “wimps”). And I also still wonder if torture is really an offense against humanity in every situation.

I also wonder when the Church actually adopted these positions. The Church in the Middle Ages and Renaissance certainly did not think that way about any of these issues (at least in practice, they did not). Sometimes I feel that the Church is on the road to becoming like the stereotypical Christians in movies about ancient Rome (i.e. peaceniks who wouldn’t even run from the lions who had been set on them in the arena; I admire their bravery on the face of death and respect for life, but I feel that such behavior goes just a little far). These are just my humble opinions, but I know in the back of my mind that I really should to reconcile all of my attitudes (not just the ones that I think are important) with the Doctrine of the Holy Roman Church. So, I would appreciate any comments on these issues.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Any thoughts?

 

[buffalo]

Incarcerating them gives them a chance to change their lives and get into heaven. Legitimate defense allows for killing to keep society safe. In countries that have the resources the Church teaches that they should be removed from society.

 

[Blacksword]

Hi everyone. Even though I know that they are, by all appearances, doctrine of the Church, I still struggle with the Holy See’s current position on certain issue, namely capital punishment, war, and torture (and some aspects of social justice, particularily as articulated by the U.S.C.C.B., but let’s not get into that right now!). Why is it that basically but the most dangerous murderers must be given bread and board by the prison system for the rest of their lives rather be promptly put to death like they deserve (I know that we are to be merciful, but sometimes I think, “Come on! These people did not show mercy to the people whom they raped and brutalized!”). In addition, why is it that we are more or less only to wage war if we are on the defense? I, for one, have trouble believing that war is all evil (and, admittedly, I do tend to view pacifism as a movement of “wimps”). And I also still wonder if torture is really an offense against humanity in every situation.

I also wonder when the Church actually adopted these positions. The Church in the Middle Ages and Renaissance certainly did not think that way about any of these issues (at least in practice, they did not). Sometimes I feel that the Church is on the road to becoming like the stereotypical Christians in movies about ancient Rome (i.e. peaceniks who wouldn’t even run from the lions who had been set on them in the arena; I admire their bravery on the face of death and respect for life, but I feel that such behavior goes just a little far). These are just my humble opinions, but I know in the back of my mind that I really should to reconcile all of my attitudes (not just the ones that I think are important) with the Doctrine of the Holy Roman Church. So, I would appreciate any comments on these issues.

Wow…well, I will pray for you that you might find the love and charity that we are called as christians to have for all, I guess that’s my response for the most part. I find it odd that you state you’re an old-fashioned Catholic, but seem to belittle the behavior and love of actual original Catholics! “Goes a little far”? Love knows no end, and the testament of the martyrs, St. Ignatius, Polycarp, and so many like them, who accepted a death in the arena with a smile on their faces is the VERY BEDROCK upon which the faith continued to grow. Meeting violence with violence is not what Jesus taught, and would not further the faith. In fact, it would make Christianity of no practical difference from any other religious faith. Don’t admire the martyrs, emulate them!

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Many innocent people have been put to death in these United States. Have you heard of the Innocence Project? It’s purpose is to investigate the wrongful conviction of people on death row and rescue them by presenting the evidence to the court before their execution. There have been many innocent people on death row freed from prison as a result…

Only if conviction were 100% correct should we even think of killing people – and then only if we cannot protect society by locking them up. It’s much cheaper to simply incarcerate them. Death sentences and the automatic appeals that result are very, very expensive for society.

Jim Dandy

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Any thoughts?

Yes. Maybe while those idiotic killers are in jail, they may come to find Christ and be saved, and not be so idiotic anymore. Why is it bad to be on the defense in wars? I’m not saying that the war should be on our soil, but we should never want to be the ones to start the war. Why do you seem to think it’s a good idea to start a war? But maybe you are saying something else, since I’m not too knowledgable about the Catechism on war.

and IMO you shouldn’t pit the church from the 11th century against the church from the 1st century - it’s the same Church established by Christ. And the Church was still on the defense in the Middle Ages as far as I can remember (at least in the Crusades they were).

God bless and hopefully God will make this clearer to you .

 

[starsmurf]

Do you think you would feel the same way about war if it was an enemy country invading your country? Are you saying groups like the Nazis were right that it is ok to go to war because you want to grab another country’s assets? That some people aren’t worthy of living? That it is ok to torture another human being, who is your brother or sister in Christ?

How would you feel if (say) China invaded and conquered your country, made it illegal to be Catholic, and when they found you tortured and imprisoned you then sentenced you to death? Is that morally ok? You are ok with it happening to people you despise but it would be different if it were you facing these things.

Those pacifists you look down on, what takes more courage, to hate or to forgive? To face an enemy with a weapon or without one?

When Christ was brought a woman who had commited adultery, and therefore was facing the death penalty, he told them they could only apply it if they themselves had never sinned. He also told us not to judge others or we ourselves would be judged by him. Your sins may be far more offensive to God than someone who has had no moral upbringing commiting rape and murder.

We are told to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. If you don’t love your brother who you can see (and that includes a rapist, a murderer or a terrorist) you can’t love God who you can’t see. It is a very hard thing to do, but we must try. I will pray that God will help you to do so.

 

[JRKH]

Hi everyone. Even though I know that they are, by all appearances, doctrine of the Church, I still struggle with the Holy See’s current position on certain issue, namely capital punishment, war, and torture (and some aspects of social justice, particularily as articulated by the U.S.C.C.B., but let’s not get into that right now!).

Joint the club. The items you mention below re difficult ones, but you are also right that you should try to reconcile yourself to the positions of the Church since these are the positions of Jesus Christ who is our King.

Why is it that basically but the most dangerous murderers must be given bread and board by the prison system for the rest of their lives rather be promptly put to death like they deserve (I know that we are to be merciful, but sometimes I think, “Come on! These people did not show mercy to the people whom they raped and brutalized!”).

It is easy to want people put to death, an eye for an eye and a life for a life…
But Jesus has called on us to move past this. Instead he calls on us to forgive, to pray for our enemies, to offer the other cheek etc…In other words to LOVE. Look at Mt 22:36-40 and you will find that Love is the underpinning of all. The Church’s teaching on Capital punishment is simply the logical outgrowth of that principle.

In addition, why is it that we are more or less only to wage war if we are on the defense? I, for one, have trouble believing that war is all evil (and, admittedly, I do tend to view pacifism as a movement of “wimps”).

Well to begin with lets clarify that those who pursue avenues of peace instead of war are not necessarily either wimps or pacifists. Mahatma Gandhi is an example of someone who refused to sanction either capitulation, pacification or violence. Dr Martin Luther King is another who refused to surrender to pacification or violence.
Many other examples might be found of individuals who refused to yield - sometimes at the cost of their lives…
For the Christian, war is to be the last resort, not the first or second. While certainly great evil has been defeated in the past through war, so has great evil been promoted, sometimes inadvertently.
Christ teaches that we should pursue the avenues of peace. That should be enough for us.

And I also still wonder if torture is really an offense against humanity in every situation.

Well - the term torture can mean many different things to different people so this is something that can’t really be commented on as written. But every human is precious in the eyes of God and we should seek to uphold that person’s dignity. It is far better to make you enemy into your friend than to kill him.

Peace
James

 

[Young_Thinker]

Hello again. I recently read a page on Wikipedia about Cafeteria Catholicism (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafeteria_Catholicism). According the article,

The term (Cafeteria Catholic) is less frequently applied to those who dissent from other Catholic moral teaching on issues such as social justice, capital punishment, or just war; this is because these areas of Catholic teaching are not definitively dogmatically defined by the Magisterium, and therefore not unchanging infallible (from a Catholic standpoint) dogmata.[1]

Is this really true? I am a little confused, since the Catechism is always presented as consisting of the Doctrine of the Church.

 

[Bookcat]

Here these can help:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

and this from Catholic Answers catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea2.asp

 

[Bookcat]

Hello again. I recently read a page on Wikipedia about Cafeteria Catholicism (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafeteria_Catholicism). According the article,

The term (Cafeteria Catholic) is less frequently applied to those who dissent from other Catholic moral teaching on issues such as social justice, capital punishment, or just war; this is because these areas of Catholic teaching are not definitively dogmatically defined by the Magisterium, and therefore not unchanging infallible (from a Catholic standpoint) dogmata.[1]

Is this really true? I am a little confused, since the Catechism is always presented as consisting of the Doctrine of the Church.

Yes the Catechism presents the Teaching of the Church (doctrine means teaching) . As the Constitution in the beginning of it by Bl. Pope John Paul II notes it is a sure norm for teaching the Faith.

But it is true that yes there are various kinds of teachings.

As Catholics we do not just assent to that which is infallible. We give the proper assent to various the Teachings of the Church.

It is not a “do it yourself” Faith or a “pick and choose” Faith.

 

[Bookcat]

Young thinker…

Please read this wonderful text from Pope Benedict XVI it is one of my favorites! Print it and read it slowly it is a very rich text. Keep reading it to the end …even though the beginning is contextual to when he gave it.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

---

Oh and do not miss the World Youth Day texts!

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/index_en.htm

and the one taking place this week! vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/travels/2011/index_madrid_en.htm

 

[Young_Thinker]

Young thinker…

Please read this wonderful text from Pope Benedict XVI it is one of my favorites! Print it and read it slowly it is a very rich text. Keep reading it to the end …even though the beginning is contextual to when he gave it.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

---

Oh and do not miss the World Youth Day texts!

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/index_en.htm

and the one taking place this week! vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/travels/2011/index_madrid_en.htm

Thanks a lot, Cat. And for reminding me that W.Y.D. Madrid is going on without me!

 

[Edward_H]

Any thoughts?

Killing someone must be a last resort. In the US there’s no way to argue that we have no other resort than to kill the person.

We need to give them as much time as possible to reconcile with God and others, as well. We can’t shorten this time without very great cause.

 

[JRKH]

Hello again. I recently read a page on Wikipedia about Cafeteria Catholicism (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafeteria_Catholicism). According the article,

The term (Cafeteria Catholic) is less frequently applied to those who dissent from other Catholic moral teaching on issues such as social justice, capital punishment, or just war; this is because these areas of Catholic teaching are not definitively dogmatically defined by the Magisterium, and therefore not unchanging infallible (from a Catholic standpoint) dogmata.[1]

Is this really true? I am a little confused, since the Catechism is always presented as consisting of the Doctrine of the Church.

To be blunt and brief, While Wikipedia is a useful tool, it is NOT the “sure norm” of the Catholic faith and teaching that the catechism is.

The teachings contained in the Catechism were not arrived at willy-nilly, nor will they change without serious consideration by the magisterium and the Holy Father. If changes DO occur you can bet that there will be much discussion and explanation preceding anything substantial.
So - for now the teachings of the Catechism are to be taken in toto by all faithful Catholics.

Peace
James

 

[Young_Thinker]

To be blunt and brief, While Wikipedia is a useful tool, it is NOT the “sure norm” of the Catholic faith and teaching that the catechism is.

The teachings contained in the Catechism were not arrived at willy-nilly, nor will they change without serious consideration by the magisterium and the Holy Father. If changes DO occur you can bet that there will be much discussion and explanation preceding anything substantial.
So - for now the teachings of the Catechism are to be taken in toto by all faithful Catholics.

Peace
James

Thank you for explaining that, Jim.

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks a lot, Cat. And for reminding me that W.Y.D. Madrid is going on without me!

You can join in via all the new media ways…

(even those of us who are old(er) thinkers can)

 

[Young_Thinker]

You can join in via all the new media ways…

(even those of us who are old(er) thinkers can)

Thanks, but you know that that is not the same thing as actually being in Madrid (you know, spending almost a week in an old city with the Pope and people from all around the world)! What is exciting in person is often boring on television.

 

[Paxvobis]

To my knowledge (and someone please correct me if I’m wrong), the Church’s teaching on capital punishment, just versus unjust war, torture, and the USCCB’s teaching on social justice is not dogma of the Church and thus you wouldn’t become a heretic if you disagreed with it.

However, you do owe your obedience to it under pain of sin (in some of these cases, grave sin). For example, a Catholic Governor can think that capital punishment in his state should be practiced (For the record, the Church has stated that the death penalty as currently practiced in the U.S. is not within the confines set by the Catechism). But if he decides to not pardon someone to be executed, than I can hardly see how he wouldn’t be branded with the guilt of grave sin, and possibly mortal sin. It’s hard to obey, but just remember that your baptism is far more important than your politics. Despite that, try to at least understand why the Church holds what it does.

Catholics can’t be a cookie cutter liberal or a cookie cutter conservative. As they used to say, we are in the world but not of the world.

 

[raymond_king]

Hi everyone. Even though I know that they are, by all appearances, doctrine of the Church, I still struggle with the Holy See’s current position on certain issue, namely capital punishment, war, and torture (and some aspects of social justice, particularily as articulated by the U.S.C.C.B., but let’s not get into that right now!). Why is it that basically but the most dangerous murderers must be given bread and board by the prison system for the rest of their lives rather be promptly put to death like they deserve (I know that we are to be merciful, but sometimes I think, “Come on! These people did not show mercy to the people whom they raped and brutalized!”). In addition, why is it that we are more or less only to wage war if we are on the defense? I, for one, have trouble believing that war is all evil (and, admittedly, I do tend to view pacifism as a movement of “wimps”). And I also still wonder if torture is really an offense against humanity in every situation.

I also wonder when the Church actually adopted these positions. The Church in the Middle Ages and Renaissance certainly did not think that way about any of these issues (at least in practice, they did not). Sometimes I feel that the Church is on the road to becoming like the stereotypical Christians in movies about ancient Rome (i.e. peaceniks who wouldn’t even run from the lions who had been set on them in the arena; I admire their bravery on the face of death and respect for life, but I feel that such behavior goes just a little far). These are just my humble opinions, but I know in the back of my mind that I really should to reconcile all of my attitudes (not just the ones that I think are important) with the Doctrine of the Holy Roman Church. So, I would appreciate any comments on these issues.

Hi Young Thinker and I know that you are young: You have many thoughts all at one time. if you could stop for a minute and try to unravel your ideas and put them into an order. like, categorize each area. I read the history of this “church”. To me, now, it is no “raw raw” roman catholic church: Two thousand years of development and corruption. Sounds like the Jewish history of the Lord? One wonders? This a good thing. Where is the true church of the forgivness of sins. like, what does it really mean? what does the forgivness of sins really mean? He forgave our sins,why do we see all this genocide? what does it mean? Some folks call it the problem of evil: they philosophize they cant suffer.I have learned, to my comfort, The Holy Spirit, and given this is one hard thing to accept----no ******** man! you got to learn this stuff----you got to pray. this might mean much to you right now but in the coming years your ears will learn what prayer means. it is a wonder that is in your heart and mind–it is an area completely your own. this is you—This is Him—It is He who leads Us