Still having difficulty understanding infallibility

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What was formally declared or dogmatically defined at a certain period of time is not an indication that something “wasn’t around.”

Take this analogy:

It has been the “constant teaching” in our house that when the girls come home from school they are to do certain things: put their school supplies away, put their shoes away, wash their hands, take off their uniforms, eat their snack, finish their chores, practice their piano, etc etc etc.

Despite the fact that they have been doing this every school day for 3-13 years **every once in a while we need to have a “family meeting” to pronounce, declare and define exactly who should be doing which job and how it is to be done. **(Note: I try to ignore their incredulous looks that say, “What? We’re supposed to hang up our backpacks again this year?” or “What? You’ve never said that we had to take off our uniforms and hang them up!” )

At this council we recall what’s been done in the past, review the current norms and define again exactly what’s the expectation. **Sometimes the kids complain that we are “reinterpreting the rules”, claiming we’ve “never done it this way before” when in actuality we are just pronouncing, declaring and defining a standard norm of our family.
**

Thus, what was formally pronounced and declared at a family meeting is not an indication that we’ve just developed a new rule.
I wouldn’t understand any of that family margon jargin… I was a bit of a rebellous child who never listened to his parents and contstantly flaunted the rules 😃

Matter of fact in ancient Israel I would have probably been put to death for how rebellous I was :p… So your analagy is therefore false…

Papal infallibility caused the remnants of the Catholic Church in Northern Europe (Netherlands, and the Nordic regions) to split and declare themselves a whole new Church… It took them years to recover and regain the faithful (In the Nordic areas its failed to recover back to its previous 19th century levels)…

Papal infallibility was a product of Vatican I plain and simple… No other Pope before then claimed to be perfect when it came to those issues… 🤷
**
Look on the brightside friend at least I agree with Papal infallbility! 👍**
 
Could you show me in which verse He makes Peter a Shepherd
*John 21:[15] When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

[16] He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.*
I’m pretty sure that those who care for, and feed, sheep and lambs are referred to as shepherds. Since I don’t think Jesus was talking about animals, I’m guessing He was telling Peter to take care of His whole flock. Just a guess. 🤷
Isn’t this the CC’s position that Jesus made Peter His vicar or one who takes His place, and wouldn’t that entail relinquishing His shepherdship?
Peter (and his successors) is the Vicar of Christ, but he never replaces Jesus. The Vicar of Christ represents Jesus as His ambassador on earth, who is responsible for caring for His beloved flock while Jesus is physically absent from the earth. The Church and all of its members are his responsibility to care for and guide, until Jesus returns to Judge mankind (aka…the Second Coming). No one on earth can ever replace Jesus, or usurp his power over His own Church.
 
John 21:[15] When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

[16] He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.
I’m pretty sure that those who care for, and feed, sheep and lambs are referred to as shepherds. Since I don’t think Jesus was talking about animals, I’m guessing He was telling Peter to take care of His whole flock. Just a guess. 🤷

Peter (and his successors) is the Vicar of Christ, but he never replaces Jesus. The Vicar of Christ represents Jesus as His ambassador on earth, who is responsible for caring for His beloved flock while Jesus is physically absent from the earth. The Church and all of its members are his responsibility to care for and guide, until Jesus returns to Judge mankind (aka…the Second Coming). No one on earth can ever replace Jesus, or usurp his power over His own Church.
Not only all true in reference to the Popes, but a key to understanding the mystery of his presence in Holy Communion.

Richard,
This doctrine need not be understood perfectly to have faith in Christ. I think that Faith in Christ comes from familiarity with the Gospels. I use the word ‘understanding’ to distinguish it from ‘knowledge’, which, in English, and in reference to the Gospels, is thought to involve more commands and directives. All the verses you cited look like commands to humanity (what you call the Great Commission), and have been taken by many in the restrictive, imperfect sense in which the 10 commandments were given - and which was a preparation for the full revelation of Jesus, his love as displayed on the cross.
Those who think they ‘know’ things feel justified in forcing people to confess faith. Christ makes clear that the evangelical mission is accomplished through His love.

This is not to say that the act of making disciples of all nations is not integral to the Gospels. It is very important and integral to an understanding of Christ. However, there are a finite number of nations and people on earth. When this is all accomplished, love will remain to unite humanity.

Mormanism, which grew out of Protestantism, apparently tried to circumvent the primacy of love and its place in the logic of God’s plan for a unified humanity by inventing innumerable other worlds to forever occupy the Protestant mind with a quest for endless conversions. There, I think, the error is glaring, as it is in the mind of many fundamentalists who seek infinite horizons within themselves and because they have not access to supposed extra terrestrial life go about baptizing themselves half a dozen times. It is a shame that they don’t accept the Pope as representative of Christ and the love he offered humanity. If their great claim is that everyone can ‘know’ Jesus and be 100 percent certain of his salvation, that, indeed, all men and woman have this power of knowledge within, by what capacity do they think we know the Popes are the representatives of Christ? We are not foreign beings. We are simply men. If we can accept it and be nourished by it, so can anyone.
 
I wouldn’t understand any of that family margon jargin… I was a bit of a rebellous child who never listened to his parents and contstantly flaunted the rules 😃

Matter of fact in ancient Israel I would have probably been put to death for how rebellous I was :p… So your analagy is therefore false…
LOL! Because *you *can’t understand something the analogy is false?

😃

Do you think that if a student doesn’t understand how airplanes fly it’s therefore false to say “Well, yes, through physics we can actually understand how an aircraft can get in the air thousands of feet above the earth!”

(If you can’t understand this, BTW, that too does not make it “false”. It only makes* you* unable to understand.)
 
LOL! Because *you *can’t understand something the analogy is false?

😃

Do you think that if a student doesn’t understand how airplanes fly it’s therefore false to say “Well, yes, through physics we can actually understand how an aircraft can get in the air thousands of feet above the earth!”

(If you can’t understand this, BTW, that too does not make it “false”. It only makes* you* unable to understand.)
I was just yanking your chain lol… I really couldn’t understand the analogy… :eek:
 
John 21:[15] When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

[16] He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.
I’m pretty sure that those who care for, and feed, sheep and lambs are referred to as shepherds. Since I don’t think Jesus was talking about animals, I’m guessing He was telling Peter to take care of His whole flock. Just a guess. 🤷
Jesus does not tell Peter to care for the sheep. What He does say is to FEED His sheep, FFED my lambs. What do you suppose Peter was supposed to feed Jesus’ sheep? They are still Jesus’ sheep by the way not Peter’s
Peter (and his successors) is the Vicar of Christ, but he never replaces Jesus. The Vicar of Christ represents Jesus as His ambassador on earth, who is responsible for caring for His beloved flock while Jesus is physically absent from the earth. The Church and all of its members are his responsibility to care for and guide, until Jesus returns to Judge mankind (aka…the Second Coming). No one on earth can ever replace Jesus, or usurp his power over His own Church.
Here’s a definition of vicar
Definition of VICAR
1: one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy

Apparently the CC does think that the pope is Christ’s substitute.
 
Richard,

The Apostles followed Christ to be servants of the Servant…and anyone who is a pupil wishes to be like his teacher.

Christ is the true Shepherd, the Apostles His chosen and the shepherds of our Church – chosen and appointed by Christ.

You continue and continue and continue to ignore our posts that the Holy Father represents Christ but is not Christ. The greater charism of the Papacy as well as the bishops is just that…Servants of God…Servio Deo. (Hope my Latin is correct).

You are projecting what isn’t there. And it is preventing you from the truth.

Christ works through men. That is why He named Himself the Son of Man.

Christ redeemed us through baptism and His flesh and blood becomes ours in the Eucharist. How much more Christ works in those chosen by Him to be His holy ministers.
 
Fact they are Gods still doesn’t subtract that St Peter is left in charge in Christs absence. They are his responsibility. Maybe you interpret this differently, how so?

A sub? Naw, its basic Biblical context the Apostles carried foward the ministry Christ left to them on earth at the last supper, then starting at Pentecost. Knowing He wouldn’t be here in the flesh. Thus He sends the Holy Spirit to guide His church. And through apostolic succession that same ministry continues today, in fact in an almost identicle way, considering the CCC is based on Justin Martyrs work. He would recognize it. In fact the liturgys of all the Apostolic Churchs have a glaring similarity.

Where in the Bible is the verse that Jesus Christ states just pray to me and I’ll forgive you your sins? I can’t seem to find that…OH, …because it isn’t in there:D So how do you even know your sins are forgiven without Christs ordained to tell you? In fact the Torah explains this well also in Deuteronomy chp 4-5, so its nothing new. Whats “new” is this fleeting idea your forgiven by prayer.

Peace
 
Richard,

I professionally care for others and I feed them when needed.

Jesus said also He was going to make His apostles fishers of men.

Without the Church, we are lost sheep wandering, lost, without the Good Shepherd and His nurturance…the Eucharist.
 
The statement the walls in this room are blue is infallible because it can be show to be true by observation.
But how do you know the walls are really blue? They may appear blue to you but what if I walked in and said the walls are green? Not all observation is true.
 
Definition:

Obviously humans are “capable” of error." in anything that humans do.

I have been struggling with understanding this concept for some time.

What makes a statement made by fallible humans infallible. I can think of three ways.
  • The statement is provable
  • The statement is observable
I thought of adding a third “The process used to produce said statement is infallible”, but since the process is a human process we still have the same issues…but now “what makes a process infallible”

How does this apply to God? God of course is infallible but yet perceived and understood by fallible humans. Is any claim made by a human about God of the type “incapable of error”.

More specifically is the statement “God exists” an infallible statement. It is not provable, it is not observable. It is a statement that I believe and accept on faith. I also believe there is good evidence to support this.But in the end I don’t think I can logically prove it to a skeptic.

If the statement “God exists” is not an infallible statement, how can any statement about God made by fallible humans be infallible.

Note…I am not trying to encourage skepticism, I am just wondering how anything we ultimately take by faith be infallible.
Look at it this simple way. Jesus said he would send the Advocate the Holy Spirit to teach in his name. Now that is what he said. Jesus does what he says.

So now how does he teach? Simple like he told us through the Church, the Church is the Pilar of all truth.

Now the Pope says something and speaks in the name of Jesus. You either believe Jesus and the Pope when he claims he speaks in the name of Jesus OR the Pope overpowered God!!! See it can’t be done.

No one can overpower God, So when the Pope says he speaks in the name of Christ, he means it. We have that promise from God that when the Pope speaks in his name its Real!!
 
Jesus does not tell Peter to care for the sheep. What He does say is to FEED His sheep, FFED my lambs. What do you suppose Peter was supposed to feed Jesus’ sheep? They are still Jesus’ sheep by the way not Peter’s

Here’s a definition of vicar
Definition of VICAR
1: one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy

Apparently the CC does think that the pope is Christ’s substitute.
Richard please show me where the CC has ever taught that the Pope is a Substitute for Christ. If you cannot do so, would you not be breaking one of God’s Commandments??

The definition state a substitute OR agent. Did you miss the OR.
 
Definition:

Obviously humans are “capable” of error." in anything that humans do.

I have been struggling with understanding this concept for some time.

What makes a statement made by fallible humans infallible. I can think of three ways.
  • The statement is provable
  • The statement is observable
I thought of adding a third “The process used to produce said statement is infallible”, but since the process is a human process we still have the same issues…but now “what makes a process infallible”

How does this apply to God? God of course is infallible but yet perceived and understood by fallible humans. Is any claim made by a human about God of the type “incapable of error”.

More specifically is the statement “God exists” an infallible statement. It is not provable, it is not observable. It is a statement that I believe and accept on faith. I also believe there is good evidence to support this.But in the end I don’t think I can logically prove it to a skeptic.

If the statement “God exists” is not an infallible statement, how can any statement about God made by fallible humans be infallible.

Note…I am not trying to encourage skepticism, I am just wondering how anything we ultimately take by faith be infallible.
Papal infallibility or speaking “ex cathedra” is very rare. Not everything the Pope says is infallible. When the Pope speaks infallibility on matters of dogma it is because he is infused with the Holy Spirit and there are other conditions present. Divine Revelation, the Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Magisterium must also be considered by the Pope. It does not say that he is always infallible, nor that he cannot be without sin or error in everything. So, the Pope does not always, indeed rarelly, speak ex-cathedra.

The Magisterium is also not entirely infallible, as it has 3 parts. The Sacred Magisterium is infallible – the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium are not necessarily always infallible. Bishops and theologians are not infallible. The Pope, when expressing opinion, is fallible even on faith and morals. But a Pope trumps a Bishop.

That God exists resides in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. John 1:14 teaches that Jesus Christ is the “Word made flesh.” The Second Vatican Coucil clarified:

“For this reason Jesus perfected revelation by fulfilling it through His whole work of making Himself present and manifesting Himself: through His words and deeds, His signs and wonders, but especially through His death and glorious resurrection from the dead and final sending of the Spirit of truth.” (Dei Verbum, 4). The content of Christ’s divine revelation is called the Deposit of Faith, and is contained in both sacred scripture and sacred tradition."

We believe that the Holy Spirit will not allow the Church to err in certain circumstances. Certainly, a belief in God is a prerequiste to belief and acceptance that the Sacred Tradition, Sacred Magisterium and Sacred Scriptures would not err.
 
Jesus does not tell Peter to care for the sheep. What He does say is to FEED His sheep, FFED my lambs. What do you suppose Peter was supposed to feed Jesus’ sheep? They are still Jesus’ sheep by the way not Peter’s
There are many answers as to what Peter was supposed to “feed” to Jesus’ sheep. The first thing that comes to mind, is for him to ‘feed’ them the real truth of the Gospel that Jesus had taught them over the three years that they had traveled along with Him, being instructed by Him as to exactly what and how to preach. I’m sure there were many other things that He had also taught them about His mission, and theirs. The second, and the most obvious in my mind, would be a reference to the “Bread of Life” that He had told them was absolutely necessary to all those that would follow Him, to ensure their eternal life. “[John 6:54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.” This is a direct reference to the Holy Eucharist that feeds our souls. It creates a much tighter bond in us with Jesus, while we’re still living here on earth, and prepares us for our eternal life with God, in Heaven.

After Jesus said those words, many of His disciples left, because they didn’t understand what He meant. But, it was Peter, again, that responded: “[68] Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? [69] And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. [70] And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Who else could be the choice that Jesus would make to be His administrator, after He had returned to Heaven? Who else had the faith of an innocent child, that would follow wherever Jesus lead him, whether he understood everything Jesus said, or not?

I already stated that Peter does not have ownership of the sheep. They belong to Jesus, alone. Peter was instructed to care for them while Jesus was physically absent from the earth. Without a diligent caretaker and shepherd, to lead them in the right direction, they could more easily wander off and become lost.

Here is small part of Catholic teaching about the office and primacy of the Pope, that you can read in its entirety, here.
The passage receives an admirable comment from St. Chrysostom:
**He saith to him, “Feed my sheep”. Why does He pass over the others and speak of the sheep to Peter? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the head of the choir. For this reason Paul went up to see him rather than the others. And also to show him that he must have confidence now that his denial had been purged away. He entrusts him with the rule [prostasia] over the brethren. . . . If anyone should say “Why then was it James who received the See of Jerusalem?”, I should reply that He made Peter the teacher not of that see but of the whole world.
[St. John Chrysostom, Homily 88 on John, 1. Cf. Origen, “In Ep. ad Rom.”, 5:10; Ephraem Syrus “Hymn. in B. Petr.” in “Bibl. Orient. Assemani”, 1:95; Leo I, “Serm. iv de natal.”, 2].**Even certain Protestant commentators frankly own that Christ undoubtedly intended here to confer the supreme pastorate on Peter. But other scholars, relying on a passage of St. Cyril of Alexandria (“In Joan.” 12:1), maintain that the purpose of the threefold charge was simply to reinstate St. Peter in the Apostolic commission which his threefold denial might be supposed to have lost to him. This interpretation is devoid of all probability. There is not a word in Scripture or in patristic tradition to suggest that St. Peter had forfeited his Apostolic commission; and the supposition is absolutely excluded by the fact that on the evening of the Resurrection he received the same Apostolic powers as the others of the eleven. The solitary phrase of St. Cyril is of no weight against the overwhelming patristic authority for the other view. That such an interpretation should be seriously advocated proves how great is the difficulty experienced by Protestants regarding this text.
Here’s a definition of vicar
Definition of VICAR
1: one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : **an administrative deputy **

Apparently the CC does think that the pope is Christ’s substitute.
That is correct, but he is only in charge of the sheep until Jesus returns to the earth. He does not replace Jesus, he merely administrates for Him, during His absence. An example of what this means in modern terms, would be that a huge corporation often has a CEO. Most of the time, they are not the owner of the company, but they administrate over it in place of the owner. They carry out the instructions given to them by the owner, and are recognized by the entire company as being in full charge of the operations of the enterprise, as his representative. While they do not take the place of the actual owner, they do carry his full authority, given to them by the owner, to do whatever is necessary to keep it running smoothly. Why wouldn’t Jesus leave someone He trusted in charge in His absence?
 
Jesus does not tell Peter to care for the sheep. What He does say is to FEED His sheep, FFED my lambs. What do you suppose Peter was supposed to feed Jesus’ sheep? They are still Jesus’ sheep by the way not Peter’s

Here’s a definition of vicar
Definition of VICAR
1: one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy

Apparently the CC does think that the pope is Christ’s substitute.
Ahhhh…feeding ANYONE is to CARE for them…DUH! I feed my children with good morals and values. Food shelters feed the homeless and why? Because they care for them. If I decide not to feed my children or provide them medical attention,then CPS would consider it neglect…hint…hint…meaning I do not CARE to feed them in ANY aspect. It is LOGICAL Richard.

Key words Richard: Sub,agent, administrative deputy (aka Vice Principal) So you mean your church has NO leadership? Unscriptural belief.
 
I was just yanking your chain lol… I really couldn’t understand the analogy… :eek:
I think I saw that, friend. You claim that the analogy is false.

But it’s really only that you have an inability to grasp analogies. 🤷
 
people can believe in tracts better than they can repetitious Catholic explanations.
 
But how do you know the walls are really blue? They may appear blue to you but what if I walked in and said the walls are green? Not all observation is true.
Which gets back to what I call core assumptions. One of them being “What we can see, observe, and measure is true” (neglecting your local magician). Otherwise we get into the realm of the absurd.
 
Look at it this simple way. Jesus said he would send the Advocate the Holy Spirit to teach in his name. Now that is what he said. Jesus does what he says.

So now how does he teach? Simple like he told us through the Church, the Church is the Pilar of all truth.

Now the Pope says something and speaks in the name of Jesus. You either believe Jesus and the Pope when he claims he speaks in the name of Jesus OR the Pope overpowered God!!! See it can’t be done.

No one can overpower God, So when the Pope says he speaks in the name of Christ, he means it. We have that promise from God that when the Pope speaks in his name its Real!!
Which gets me back to my first point.

You are supporting infallibility by an interpretation of Scripture.

Obviously you believe the interpretation to have great merit. Others might disagree. Hence a 20 page debate on the topic.

But even if it does have great merit, it remains an interpretation. Which…is fallible.
 
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