Still having difficulty understanding infallibility

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No Amateur Pianist…we do not look to Scripture alone.

We look to the tradition of how Scripture was incarnated in the faith of the local people and the greater universal church as a whole.

That means you have to look at church history for context as well.

Without the Church, you are looking at Scripture without the traditions the Apostles taught us. You are literally looking at Scripture alone.

Scripture alone is without Church. Scripture Alone has no history but more are more fragmentation.

The Papacy provides us the Living Revelation of Jesus Christ and the work of unity of keeping us one…not just in word and attitude…but at one table…One Bread, One Body.
 
"It’s infallible because it is final? Wow! So Hitlers decision to execute 6,000,000 Jews was an infallible decision because it was a final decision by the highest authority in Germany at the time? I know Roe v. Wde is the law of the land, but YOU are saying that it is infallible.
Actually, historically Hitler was not the authority in Germany, only the presumptive authority. If you interpret the suspension of elections as valid, then was the legal ruler of Germany. Many would disagree that he came to his position through manipulation and maintained it by an illegal process. He used an illegal process to remain in power after taking the Chancellorship through manipulation and threat. Further, he later actions were not only illegal but immoral. And the allied countries, obviously, did not care for his presumptive status – they took him OUT.

Statements made in such a manner as Hitler being infallible do not contribute anything but disprespect. You asked a question. It seems you do not like the answers. I wonder why this response was not reported?
 
Willful. Deliberate ignoring the truth.

That is what the Restorationists’ religions are about…willfulness and deliberate bias…

It is like believing in the ‘doctrines’ of the anti-Catholic tracts rather than in one the Church teaches…or drawing on a few disagreements to invalidate and malign the Catholic Church.

People cultivate that in their hearts and I don’t see what it has to do with true Christianity.
 
The OP’s question has nothing to do with the pope or the Catholic Church or her theology.
It is a question about whether anything can be known as a certain truth, infallibly. The OP stated 1+1=2 can be known to be infallibly true, but anything that can not be demonstrated as true in that manner he wonders about.

The statement, “God exists”, or the question, “Does God exist”, has a yes or no answer. God can not both exist and not exist. The question is whether or not the correct answer can be infallibly known.

We can look to Aquinas and his proofs, or even Aristotle the philospher who proved the existance of God, but those proofs are a bit more complicated than 1+1=2 and some people may not be able to follow them.

If God exists can we know it for certain? Although Aristotle, Aquinas and Anselm proved it without relying on faith, there is still another way.

For God’s existance to be known God would have to reveal His existance. The question then becomes: “Has God revealed Himself to men”?

What is the evidence that says He has?

The Church holds that God’s existance is demonstrable, but that without revelation we can know nothing more about him other than He exists.

The discussion in the thread about scripture being useless unless it can be understood properly, began with the assumption that it can not be understood properly, based on the fact that there are so many conflicting interpretations. The fact there are many disagreements on its meaning does not demonstrate that infallible truth is not knowable through scripture. To do that it would have to be provable that ALL interpretations are false.

The fact that many people are confused does not prove all are confused.

Logic says all are false or one is true.

The problem of scripture not being able to lead us to infallible truth is ironically a Protestant problem. The group that holds sola scriptura can not agree on its meaning and therefore can not know truth infallibly through scripture. But, if God reveals Himself in the stories found in scripture then truth about God can be infallibly known through scripture, or its right understanding. If it can not be rightly understood and God revealed it why did God reveal it? It would be like throwing a life ring to someone you knew could not reach it.

Back to the OP’s question on what or what can not be known infallibly, even God’s existance, and the answer. IF God has revealed Himself it can be known that He exists, but this does not mean everyone will know God exists. It means everyone can know God exists.

Assume it can be known that colds are caused by virus. Some people know this to be true and others do not. I have never seen a virus, but believe they cause colds. They do or they don’t. Taking aspirin reduces a cold’s discomfort. It does or it does not. In the same way we can empirically apply the things to our lives God supposedly has revealed and see the results, especially in the lives of the saints. Or, we can not apply them and see the results in broken lives and a broken world around us. We can take the medicine or not and see the results. The results are a proof.

Beyond whether God exists can be infallibly known, if God revealed Himself through revealtion, we also know the things He says are true about Himself and us, through the means He gives us to know it. Those means are found in scripture which tells us He sent men to all the nations to teach His truths. We learn from them what God has revealed, by the testimony of those He appointed and sent. Scripture does not tell us we learn infallible truths from scripture, but from the men God chose and taught and commanded to teach the nations. These are the men who gave us scripture.

A whole body of truth is knowable then. Or the alternative is, nothing is knowable.
 
The OP posts to understand infallibility. But the OP’s responses to the replies belie the title of the post. Then his responses are “I don’t want help” and “Hitler is also infallible by that argument.”

It is disingenuous and disrespectful.
 
Sorry, I was mistaken. I should not have used OP. I attributed the wrong post to the OP.

With apologies to the OP.
 
The OP’s question has nothing to do with the pope or the Catholic Church or her theology.
It is a question about whether anything can be known as a certain truth, infallibly. The OP stated 1+1=2 can be known to be infallibly true, but anything that can not be demonstrated as true in that manner he wonders about.

The statement, “God exists”, or the question, “Does God exist”, has a yes or no answer. God can not both exist and not exist. The question is whether or not the correct answer can be infallibly known.

We can look to Aquinas and his proofs, or even Aristotle the philospher who proved the existance of God, but those proofs are a bit more complicated than 1+1=2 and some people may not be able to follow them.

If God exists can we know it for certain? Although Aristotle, Aquinas and Anselm proved it without relying on faith, there is still another way.

For God’s existance to be known God would have to reveal His existance. The question then becomes: “Has God revealed Himself to men”?

What is the evidence that says He has?

The Church holds that God’s existance is demonstrable, but that without revelation we can know nothing more about him other than He exists.

The discussion in the thread about scripture being useless unless it can be understood properly, began with the assumption that it can not be understood properly, based on the fact that there are so many conflicting interpretations. The fact there are many disagreements on its meaning does not demonstrate that infallible truth is not knowable through scripture. To do that it would have to be provable that ALL interpretations are false.

The fact that many people are confused does not prove all are confused.

Logic says all are false or one is true.

The problem of scripture not being able to lead us to infallible truth is ironically a Protestant problem. The group that holds sola scriptura can not agree on its meaning and therefore can not know truth infallibly through scripture. But, if God reveals Himself in the stories found in scripture then truth about God can be infallibly known through scripture, or its right understanding. If it can not be rightly understood and God revealed it why did God reveal it? It would be like throwing a life ring to someone you knew could not reach it.

Back to the OP’s question on what or what can not be known infallibly, even God’s existance, and the answer. IF God has revealed Himself it can be known that He exists, but this does not mean everyone will know God exists. It means everyone can know God exists.

Assume it can be known that colds are caused by virus. Some people know this to be true and others do not. I have never seen a virus, but believe they cause colds. They do or they don’t. Taking aspirin reduces a cold’s discomfort. It does or it does not. In the same way we can empirically apply the things to our lives God supposedly has revealed and see the results, especially in the lives of the saints. Or, we can not apply them and see the results in broken lives and a broken world around us. We can take the medicine or not and see the results. The results are a proof.

Beyond whether God exists can be infallibly known, if God revealed Himself through revealtion, we also know the things He says are true about Himself and us, through the means He gives us to know it. Those means are found in scripture which tells us He sent men to all the nations to teach His truths. We learn from them what God has revealed, by the testimony of those He appointed and sent. Scripture does not tell us we learn infallible truths from scripture, but from the men God chose and taught and commanded to teach the nations. These are the men who gave us scripture.

A whole body of truth is knowable then. Or the alternative is, nothing is knowable.
Excellent point! The key to knowing the truth of scripture, and of God as He is revealed in it, is to figure out who it was that God ‘sent’ to teach the nations. There cannot be more than one group of individuals that were sent by His authority, any more than there can be more than one truth of His existence. So, the next logical question is, who actually holds that authority of understanding God as He has revealed Himself, that was given to them directly by God?
 
The Seventh Day Adventists pretty much renounce Catholicism because of the papacy, which they see oppressing Christianity from the late 500’s to the 1700’s…the Church the beast in Revelations as the Leopard, and now reappearing as the horn with the lamb…because of Vatican diplomatic ties with the USA.

They have such a contempt because they alleged the popes wore a tiara stating, ‘Viceregent of the Son of God’…that is why I answered Richard in the past informing him we do not see the pope as God, and he coming back in essence saying we do.

Such a comment comes from Catholic gnostics.

I went to Catholic sites and so far have not found any supporting this inscription on any papal tiara…but I did come across an Adventist website really getting into it with Patrick Madrid, rejecting everything he said rebuking such a concept.

The Adventists added up the numbers of ‘Viceregent of the Son of God’…and came up with 666.

The founder of the SDA is Ellen G White who also was associated in some form with freemasonry and who dabbled in numerology.

Her name comes up as such:

E LL en G o VID W h I te meaning 50+50+5+500+5+5+1 = 666 Another AntiChrist!!
 
Furthermore, I also looked at their mainsite as to how they define Christ…they state they do believe in the Holy Trinity, defined by the Catholic Church.

They see Christ as Creator, Sustainer, Savior, Friend, God, Son of God Himself…

But no title as Redeemer…which means Christ can do all things through men, renewing, restoring, calling choosing, appointing, and representing Him.

Furthermore, the SDA’s believe that those who worship on Sunday have the mark of the beast, that they are the remnant that will be chosen because they have God’s mark on them,worshipping on Saturday.
 
The Seventh Day Adventists pretty much renounce Catholicism because of the papacy, which they see oppressing Christianity from the late 500’s to the 1700’s…the Church the beast in Revelations as the Leopard, and now reappearing as the horn with the lamb…because of Vatican diplomatic ties with the USA.

They have such a contempt because they alleged the popes wore a tiara stating, ‘Viceregent of the Son of God’…that is why I answered Richard in the past informing him we do not see the pope as God, and he coming back in essence saying we do.

Such a comment comes from Catholic gnostics.

I went to Catholic sites and so far have not found any supporting this inscription on any papal tiara…but I did come across an Adventist website really getting into it with Patrick Madrid, rejecting everything he said rebuking such a concept.

The Adventists added up the numbers of ‘Viceregent of the Son of God’…and came up with 666.

The founder of the SDA is Ellen G White who also was associated in some form with freemasonry and who dabbled in numerology.

Her name comes up as such:

E LL en G o VID W h I te meaning 50+50+5+500+5+5+1 = 666 Another AntiChrist!!
It is very easy to rebuke the bogus of charge from the SDA regarding the pope & 666. How? The NT was written in Greek,not Latin. So how do they get 666 from a text written in Greek?
 
Excellent point! The key to knowing the truth of scripture, and of God as He is revealed in it, is to figure out who it was that God ‘sent’ to teach the nations. There cannot be more than one group of individuals that were sent by His authority, any more than there can be more than one truth of His existence. So, the next logical question is, who actually holds that authority of understanding God as He has revealed Himself, that was given to them directly by God?
The notion or question raised by the OP is not new. The skeptics of the Age of Reason claimed the only thing we can know for certain is that which we experience with our physical senses, or the instruments which magnify them, microscopes and telescopes for example. The precludes having any knowledge of anything spiritual.

It is from this assertion that the natural sciences came to be exalted as the only arbiter of any truth. The natural sciences, the physical senses explore the physical universe.

Similarly, the OP says he is convinced of the truth 1+1=2, because is observable in the physical dimension, but he is not sure any spiritual truth can be known with certainty, even the existence of God.

The Age of Reason promoters were very clever in choosing the name for their attack on religion. It assumes that if you do not agree with them you are unreasonable, or incapable of reason.

There was recently a local debate on a collage campus between a priest with two advanced degrees in philosophy and a former evangelical minister on the question of whether or not there is an objective morality. All of the priest’s comments and responses were calm and reasoned. The atheist’s discourse was a hyper emotional breakdown.

In order to make the preposterous claim that theology and theologians are unreasonable one must never have read any of their work.

To the OP; if you do not know God exists it is impossible to know why you exist. You can not know your purpose or even that you have one. You can not know why you exist. If you do have a purpose which you can not know it is impossible to fulfill it if you do not know what it is, because only God who made you for His purpose can tell you what it is and how to achieve it, your destiny. A way of describing a person who does not know why he exists or where he is going or how to get there is lost.

Calling you lost is not meant as an insult. It is what you are and what you admit to being. You do not know truth, but are considering whether it can be known. It does exist and I hope you find it, or Him.
 
The notion or question raised by the OP is not new. The skeptics of the Age of Reason claimed the only thing we can know for certain is that which we experience with our physical senses, or the instruments which magnify them, microscopes and telescopes for example. The precludes having any knowledge of anything spiritual.

It is from this assertion that the natural sciences came to be exalted as the only arbiter of any truth. The natural sciences, the physical senses explore the physical universe.

Similarly, the OP says he is convinced of the truth 1+1=2, because is observable in the physical dimension, but he is not sure any spiritual truth can be known with certainty, even the existence of God.

The Age of Reason promoters were very clever in choosing the name for their attack on religion. It assumes that if you do not agree with them you are unreasonable, or incapable of reason.

There was recently a local debate on a collage campus between a priest with two advanced degrees in philosophy and a former evangelical minister on the question of whether or not there is an objective morality. All of the priest’s comments and responses were calm and reasoned. The atheist’s discourse was a hyper emotional breakdown.

In order to make the preposterous claim that theology and theologians are unreasonable one must never have read any of their work.

To the OP; if you do not know God exists it is impossible to know why you exist. You can not know your purpose or even that you have one. You can not know why you exist. If you do have a purpose which you can not know it is impossible to fulfill it if you do not know what it is, because only God who made you for His purpose can tell you what it is and how to achieve it, your destiny. A way of describing a person who does not know why he exists or where he is going or how to get there is lost.

Calling you lost is not meant as an insult. It is what you are and what you admit to being. You do not know truth, but are considering whether it can be known. It does exist and I hope you find it, or Him.
I think you misunderstood what I am saying. I am after all a Christian and not a skeptic.
 
I think you misunderstood what I am saying. I am after all a Christian and not a skeptic.
Yes, I understand that.
From your original post:
More specifically is the statement “God exists” an infallible statement. It is not provable, it is not observable. It is a statement that I believe and accept on faith. I also believe there is good evidence to support this.But in the end I don’t think I can logically prove it to a skeptic.
The existence of God has been proven not relying on faith, but by intellect. The Greeks discovered without revelation that God exists. Aristotle, Anselm and Aquinas gave intellectual proofs as philosophers. God revealed Himself to the Jews in salvation history, not the Greeks. Using intellect only, unaided by revelation (faith) it is impossible to know anything about God, other than that God exists.

The skeptics of the Age of Reason claimed nothing is knowable, no truth is knowable with certainty, including that God exists. This is the notion you seem to propose.

If that is the case then nothing at all can be known about a spiritual reality, because all of our knowledge of it begins with God’s existance.

God has demonstrated that He exists in salvation history, not by revealing to our minds or spirits some heavenly landscape. He did it by entering our dimension, being conceived in Mary’s virginal womb, being born a man, working many miracles, dying and rising. The Old Testament foretells His coming in prophesy, typology, and the history of the Jews.

This evidence is the 1 plus 1 stuff you are looking for. Added to it are countless miracles of the saints, the historical evidence of revelation to many people at once such as at Fatima.

Those who refuse to believe do so out of obstinacy, not reason, even though they claim reason as theirs.
 
Which gets me back to my first point.

You are supporting infallibility by an interpretation of Scripture.

Obviously you believe the interpretation to have great merit. Others might disagree. Hence a 20 page debate on the topic.

But even if it does have great merit, it remains an interpretation. Which…is fallible.
Again, AP, you do the same thing with any number of your core beliefs.

I will amend the above post and allow you to fill in the blank with whatever belief you have that comes from Scripture.

You are supporting-] infallibility/-]_________ by an interpretation of Scripture.

Obviously you believe the interpretation to have great merit. Others might disagree. Hence a 20 page debate on the topic.

But even if it does have great merit, it remains an interpretation. Which…is fallible.

See?

Now you cannot provide apologia to your atheist, Muslim, secular, Buddhist, non-Trinitarian friends. All they need do is say the above quote to you…and how will your respond?
 
The founder of the SDA is Ellen G White who also was associated in some form with freemasonry and who dabbled in numerology.

Her name comes up as such:

E LL en G o VID W h I te meaning 50+50+5+500+5+5+1 = 666 Another AntiChrist!!
😃

Ah, it’s ironic, no? If one puts one’s faith in numerology making some statement about the anti-Christ, it can come and bite you on the behind. And suddenly it turns out that you, too, Ellen White, are the anti-Christ.
 
So so true…

but the tragedy is that those who are quick to call us anti-Christ also are denying themselves the greater reality of Jesus Christ…as John Paul II said, Christianity is about redeeming…the work of divine grace in ‘treasures of clay’…

The closer one gets to Christ, the more they recognize as well God created common humanity present in every person in this world…there are no favorites, no class or persons better than the other…
 
It is from this assertion that the natural sciences came to be exalted as the only arbiter of any truth. The natural sciences, the physical senses explore the physical universe.
And the great irony is that the natural sciences cannot prove through the scientific method that science is the only arbiter of any truth.
 
It all gets down to grace and faith…

Grace is need to make sure you get on the tract insuring your faith will be purified and become better and more true…

So it gets down to accepting the Cross and keeping the focus on our own sinfulness rather than being self-righteous and thinking we are the enlightened ones.

Only Christ can bless us with Light…
 
… John Paul II said, Christianity is about redeeming…the work of divine grace in ‘treasures of clay’…
+*Marvelous quote . . . ! . . . thanks for sharing . . . *

*God bless . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+​
 
Which gets me back to my first point.

You are supporting infallibility by an interpretation of Scripture.

Obviously you believe the interpretation to have great merit. Others might disagree. Hence a 20 page debate on the topic.

But even if it does have great merit, it remains an interpretation. Which…is fallible.
You miss my point. Where did I ever claim infalibility?? See I didn’t. Here is where you are getting confused, If you ask me what did Jesus mean when he said …

I can say I believe he meant this or that. But what does the CHURCH teach. See what I am saying??

A good example for you would be the bible. God used his people to write his words. But they used their own way of writing what God was saying to them. Look at the wriitings of the bible. How one Apostle is easier to read then another.

But the thoughts and idea was under the power of the Holy Spirit.

God still talks to the Pope and the Bishops under the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why Jesus said when he left he would send the Advocate the Holy Spirit to speak in his name. The Holy Spirit cannot be wrong.

Here is another way to tell that it truly came from the Holy Spirit. IT can never contradict scripture nor be wrong.

But back to my point if it comes from the CHURCH and I teach it to you its infallible. But it did not come from ME, I was only passing on the truth. Do you see what I am saying?
 
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