Stoning people. (Catholics only please)

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freesoulhope

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In Deuteronomy 17:2–5 God said: “If there is found among you, within any of your towns which the Lord your God gives you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it; then you shall inquire diligently [note that phrase: “inquire diligently”], and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel, then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.”

Please do not Interpret my Qeustion as trolling.

I am a catholic no matter what. But at first glance one can understand how immoral this might sound to an atheist.
I have often tryed to reconcile it, make it justifiable, philosiphise about the reasons why God would want us to do this. And i have tryed to justify it because i have to believe that God is good.

Humbly excepting that i am blind, can somebody please explain to me the laws of stoning, why god would want us to do it, the reasons sourounding such an order, and why it doesnt apply to us now.

I want to grow stronger in knolege

Peace be with you and God bless.
 
Who am I to question God? His ways are not my ways. How could any of us totally understand the mind of God?

Is my answer too simplistic? Probably - for an atheist. But God didn’t write His book for atheists… He wrote it for me - a person of faith. I will trust Him & obey.

This doesn’t apply to today because Jesus said that he who is without sin may cast the first stone. No one is without sin.

God Bless,
CM
 
only Catholics may respond to the thread? or only Catholics should be stoned. it depends on what you mean by stoned. ah, the punishment described in Deuteronomy, not the condition people found themselves in at college parties in my youth.

Well since Christ fulfilled the Old Law and replaced it with the New Commandment of love, we can just disregard it as it no longer applies. we now hammer people with rosaries when they transgress (not using them as lashes, you understand, but bombarding them with prayer).
 
This law was meant to keep Israel pure of false gods. And why was that important, we might ask. It was important for three reasons:
  1. because God is a jealous God who knows that only he can truly meet the needs of humanity. When his chosen people followed after false gods they became like other nations, trusting in their own strengths and abilities instead of in God. God did not want them falling into the such struggles for power in the world, but to know the peace and joy of living in the protection and love of God.
  2. because God had chosen Israel to bring the Messiah to the world. If they lost their faithfulness to God there would have been no Mary and no Jesus, no Savior of the World.
  3. it teaches us that God is serious about our devotion to him alone. He demands faithfulness because he alone can satisfy our hearts, minds, and souls.
Laws of punishment were superseded by the Law of Love now that Christ has died and risen from the dead for our redemption, but those OT laws kept Israel faithful to God which made it possible for Israel to exist long enough to give the world Our Lord and Redeemer.
 
I will try to answer this in a short message, I would recommend that you listen to Scott Hahn’s audio series Our Fathers Plan; He covers Deuteronomy and Leviticus in depth in that program.
The book of Leviticus came about by Israel worshiping the Golden Calf in Exodus chapter 32, and the book of Deuteronomy was written because of the Sin of Baal of Peor in Numbers chapter 25.

The Priesthood was taken away from the lay people and given to the Levites after the Golden Calf incident, and Moses gave the Deuteronomic laws to the People of Israel after the Sin of Ball of Peor, In the laws of Sinai, God gave the laws, but in Deuteronomy, it is Moses, not God giving the laws.
Scott Hahn says that all these extra laws were given due to the weakness of Israel’s faith, and they were not to be permanent. Sometimes a lesser sin is permitted to prevent a greater sin from happening, and so we see things like Stoning, Divorce, and Harem warfare allowed.(the killing of all men, women and children) The faith of Israel was weaker than the sin of the neighboring countries, so they would be more tempted to worship the Gods of their neighbors than they were to convert the countries to their God.

Again this is just a brief answer, and Scott goes gives a better explanation in Our Fathers plan

Our Fathers Plan (real audio format)
Our Fathers Plan (MP3 format)

I think Scott talks about this in the Program number 4
“Israel In Egypt”
 
The temporal punishments of the OT are shadows of the greater spiritual punishments revealed by Jesus. If you worship false gods, you are no longer stoned to death because now we know the true punishment–the eternal death and torment of damnation.
 
This is funny and relevant! If someone quotes these old laws as justification for something (like hating homosexuals for example) I like to point these out-

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbours.
*
They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?*

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
Why can’t I own Canadians?

**e) **I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)?

🙂

The short answer - traditionally we have understood that the OT Law contains elements that are indicative of God’s unchanging character, and therefore do not pass away with the coming of the Messiah. Indeed the NT reiterates their significance. (eg 10 commandments). There are elements in the Levitical law that Jesus fulfills, and therefore we have no further need of them (the sacrifical system), and there are elements that are distcinctive to the society of Israel at the time, that may contain some wisdom for us, but are not applicable in the society in which we live, such as the kinds of things you reference. If we only had the OT to go on for developing a view of the homosexual lifestyle viz a viz appropriatness for Christians, we would have theological difficulties sustaining prohibition.
 
My understanding ( I am not a theologian) is the bible is inspired not dictated. So God communicated thou shall… and thou shall not… however man added thing as “or else we will…” Jesus corrected these laws, and thus the Catholic Church makes not attempts to injure, harm, punish, etc. Our ultimate punishment is excommunication and that is rare and done not to punish but to protect the church.
 
Well, here’s one Catholic’s (though, not the Catholic) take on stoning as method of execution.

The Hebrews formed a sacred covenant between them and the Lord. They heard the Law from Moses and formally agreed to it. They are in this together–all for one and one for all.

So, what does stoning have to do with that? Stoning is basically a communal action. If the criminal sins against the covenental community, then the community itself must execute the criminal. There were no special executioners back in those days, as if the Jews, like Pilate, could wash their hands of the thing.

Yes, to us moderns it seems cruel and unusual. But remember that our viewpoint has lasted for a few decades. The Hebrew notion of crime has lasted for millenia, and was instituted by God Himself as pedagogy for His people. They were not really taught about Heaven and Hell, but through these harsh punishments they knew that sin was very serious.
 
Free Soul Hope,

It’s not a question of God wanting us to stone people in the here and now, it’s a question of God telling the ancient Israelites to stone people some 3,500 years ago. We’ve learned a few things in the intervening millenia.

Simply put, the Israelites did not have any better way to deal with this sort of thing back then. Stoning somebody to death prevented the rot of false doctrine from infecting the entire community and may also have helped to save the guilty party from Hell; physical death, after all, is not the worst thing that can happen to a person.
  • Liberian
 
I appreciate everybodys reply. God bless and peace be with you. A few of the anwsers had a " How dare you ask a question like this!" Tone to it. Maybe im wrong. I felt a bit ashamed asking it. But i must ask these qeustions to learn, and im not ashamed of saying that i do not know everything. Peace and thanks again.
 
Hello freesoulhope,

Jesus supercharged OT Church delivered punishment of physical death into the NT Church delivered punishment of spiritual death through Catholic anathema.

To cut off someone from the body of the Church, OT people were to throw physical stones at them. To cut off someone from the body of the Christian Church, Jesus gave Catholic leaders the power to anathematize.

Jesus swears to Apostolic Successors that anyone they bind to sin on earth, He will bind to sin in heaven. What happens to people Jesus binds to sin and refuses to forgive in heaven? They go to hell (spiritual death).

Please visit: Throwing Stones

Anathema

…“To understand the word anathema”, says Vigouroux, “we should first go back to **the real meaning of herem of which it is the equivalent. Herem comes from the word haram, to cut off, to separate, to curse, and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated, **whether a person or a thing, and in consequence, that which man is forbidden to make use of.”…

…but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven"…

…“Know that Engeltrude is not only under the ban of excommunication, which separates her from the society of the brethren, but under the anathema, which separates from the body of Christ, which is the Church.”…

…“If, after having been deposed from office, he is incorrigible, he should first be excommunicted; but if he perseveres in his contumacy he should be stricken with the sword of anathema; but if plunging to the depths of the abyss, he reaches the point where he despises these penalties, he should be given over to the secular arm.”…

…**In passing this sentence, the pontiff **is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces **the formula of anathema **which ends with these words: **Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate **, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."

He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema
**NAB MAT 16:13 **

I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
NAB REV 1:16
A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth…

…I hold the keys of death and the nether world."

NAB ISA 11:4

The Rule of Immanuel
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​
**NAB JOH 20:20 **

"Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."
 
FightingFat said:
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
Why can’t I own Canadians?
Click to expand...
Uh, because you live in England. :rotfl: O.K. I know it’s a cut and paste from an American site. I just had to laugh.
 
freesoulhope said:
In Deuteronomy 17:2–5 God said: “If there is found among you, within any of your towns which the Lord your God gives you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it; then you shall inquire diligently [note that phrase: “inquire diligently”], and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel, then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.”

Please do not Interpret my Qeustion as trolling.

I am a catholic no matter what. But at first glance one can understand how immoral this might sound to an atheist.
I have often tryed to reconcile it, make it justifiable, philosiphise about the reasons why God would want us to do this. And i have tryed to justify it because i have to believe that God is good.

Humbly excepting that i am blind, can somebody please explain to me the laws of stoning, why god would want us to do it, the reasons sourounding such an order, and why it doesnt apply to us now.

I want to grow stronger in knolege

Peace be with you and God bless.
Click to expand...

**It’s not directed to us. The fact that we read it, no more makes it binding on us than reading the Twelve Tables (a Roman law-code of c. 450 BC) would make them binding on a professor of Latin. **​

The only difference is, that the law of Moses is part of Scripture - while the TT, are not. And because we accept the law of Moses as Scripture, it can look as though it has much authority for us Christians, as for those to whom it was originally given. But - this to confuse two statements:
  • 1. The Law of Moses is part of the Bible read by Christians - therefore, it is canonical for Christians.
  • 2. The LoM was authoritative for the people to whom the LoM was original given - therefore, it has the same authority for Christians.
    **The conclusion of 1., is true - the conclusion of 2., is not true: because the canonicity of the parts of the Bible, though related to the authority of them, is not the same thing. **
**It is more accurate to say that although the LoM is canonical for Christians, its authority has to be understood in the light of the coming of Christ. Who, obviously, had not come when the Law was given; so what was given before He came, could not be understood in the light of His coming. We live since He came - so our perspective on the Law is not that of the people who received the Law before He came. ****And when the Law was given, there was no Christian ethics. So the Law cannot be expected to reflect Christian ethics. **
**I don’t see what is immoral in this law - it’s harsh, certainly: but, I don’t see why that is an objection to it for us to have to answer. If atheists are upset by it, they may well be failing to think historically. 😦 **
 
Free Soul Hope,

There is nothing wrong with an honest inquiry. Many people have cultural biases that make certain things “obvious” to them when they are in fact not obvious at all. I think your question was entirely appropriate.
  • Liberian
 
Hello all,

rather than open a new thread, I’d like to tack my own question on here.

How is stoning justified in light on the 5th commandment - Thou shalt not kill?

I’m assuming that the 5th commandment is conditional and not absolute i.e. one can kill in certain cases where the punishment is ordained by God?

God bless,
Noel.
 
The proper translation of the 5th commandment is "Thou shalt not MURDER’.

Murder is killing without proper justification. The person is being stoned because he committed an affront against the Most High, that of worshiping another god, a sin against the first commandment.
 
nkelly said:
Hello all,

rather than open a new thread, I’d like to tack my own question on here.

How is stoning justified in light on the 5th commandment - Thou shalt not kill?

I’m assuming that the 5th commandment is conditional and not absolute i.e. one can kill in certain cases where the punishment is ordained by God?

God bless,
Noel.
Click to expand...
The killing forbidden by the 5th commandment is the taking of innocent life. (Try a Scripture word search on “innocent”) The idolators were not considered innocent; they were breakers of the law. You can tell how serious God considers a particular sinful action by the seriousness of the punishment He decrees.
 
In the Bible, murder is essentially killng with malice.

It is difficult for us to understand some of the laws because we don’t really have zones of holiness anymore. In the Bible, God creates zones of holiness (priests in the Temple only, certain sacrifices at certain times, etc.). The penalty for breaking one of these laws is almost always death. It doesn’t really have a moral component, other than to seperate the holy from the profane. If you weren’t supposed to touch the ark and you did, you died. Not because you did something immoral but because you breached a holy zone.

Similarly in Numbers when the Jews are told to kill all the Midinites, this is done because it is a holy war. It is a way to ensure that nothing is taken as booty by the jews and all is given over to God.
 
Texas_Roofer said:
My understanding ( I am not a theologian) is the bible is inspired not dictated. So God communicated thou shall… and thou shall not… however man added thing as “or else we will…” Jesus corrected these laws, and thus the Catholic Church makes not attempts to injure, harm, punish, etc. Our ultimate punishment is excommunication and that is rare and done not to punish but to protect the church.
Click to expand...
This may not be the case now, but it is some of the basis for the inqusition. It was considered morally wrong to punish a person based on heresay or suspicion, so a “diligent inquiry” had to me made.
 
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