Stop giving sacraments of initiation to the unaware

[pianistclare]

Just speaking for my parish, I believe the best way to rejuvenate sacrament prep and disposition is to take sacrament prep out of the hands of the school.

If you look at the statistics at our school, only about 20% of our families are practicing Catholic. The school has become a privileged refuge from public education. Honestly, if it were not expected of them as part of the “curriculum”, not many would participate. The same 20% are the only ones who bother to bring their children to receive first Communion bibles at Mass, and will be the same 20% who continue on. And so, maybe the others should not be participating if the disposition and intent are not present. If the desire and disposition for the sacraments is there, call the parish. One thing we have been discussing is an RCIA type program that includes all those inquiring for the sacraments, age appropriately of course.

In the present cultural climate, a decision should be encouraged and an intentional choice made to participate in the sacraments.
Otherwise the cycle of trivialized sacramental participation continues.

That must be an issue for your particular Diocese. All sac prep here is done through the parish, since it the parish who confers the sacrament in the context of the life of that worshipping community.
I am a DRE. Most of the people who complain do nothing, and I mean nothing to support our programs for youth. But when they need slave labor??? Let’s get the kids to carry heavy tables, pick up trash fold 2000 rice bowls.frankly I’m a bit tired of the apathy.
Parents dont want to volunteer with their own children . They want to dump them off Nd let others try to u write what has placed on a student heart by unfiltered internet and median consumption.on behalf of catechists everywhere: Thanks.
And go ahead. Move Confirmation to a little kid who barely comprehends Eucharist. The churches will be emptier, and you can rid yourself of the expense of a religious ed program once and for all.

The children are not the problem.
They can’t drive themselves.

 

[cominghome1966]

Some groundwork:
I live in the US.
We have infant Baptism, First Communion at about 8 years, and Confirmation at about 13.
Concurrently, catholic families and schools are failing to raise Christian disciples. In ever increasing numbers, the souls receiving these sacraments are not “opening the gift” and are wandering off into a life of indifferentism.

Sherry Weddell’s “Forming Intentional Disciples” book comes to mind. The book observes the problem, but doesn’t really see a practical way forward. The way forward is difficult. It should be difficult.
At the same time we decry the lack of intentional Christian discipleship, we don’t ask those coming to the sacraments to make any intentional decision for Christ.
You can’t have it both ways. Either we do something to bring about intentional living, or intentional discipleship is just a feel-good phrase.

Receiving the source and summit of the Christian life (Eucharist) should coincide with some decisiveness on the part of the receiver. The Church here has closed this door to decisiveness by keeping these sacraments in the context of a nice dress, a party, and pictures to be thrown into an album. ““And let me warm up my SUV so my child can get in and go.””

This might have worked when the culture supported Christian values. If we look around, the culture has abandoned Christianity. **The way we are doing things as catechists and schools is not working. **

And a working definition of insanity is to do the same ineffective thing over and over.
Stop the merry go round.
The Church needs to start seeing mature commitment before administering sacraments of initiation.

We (as the US Church) are failing absolutely miserably at this. There is no excuse.

I agree with so much of what you’re saying here, and have thought about this issue a lot.

Here is the remedy I’ve wondered about:

I’ve wondered if the Church needs to withhold confirmation until the person indicates that there is a firm committent to living the Christian life.

Even the name itselt, confirmation, implies that there is a definite decision to follow Christ.

That is what makes sense to me.

 

[pianistclare]

Sorry for the typos. I was posting fro my phone.

These threads just make me so angry.
Little support for education, yet people complain about the level of education.
Try working a 60 hour week with little pay, lousy benefits if any, and a handful of faithful volunteers who really love and care about the children.

I got chewed out for offering Youth Group on Superbowl Sunday, for heaven’s sake.
That’s the level of parental concern we’re dealing with .
I was advised "don’t ever do that again ".
I’m mandated to have a certain number of classes per year to keep certified by the Diocese. So I guess people want to come into June for classes? No, they just won’t show up. And when I tell them their child didn’t have sufficient attendance for sacraments in the following year, I will get chewed out again, and over-ridden.
The Diocese sets the rules people. Not the educators.

 

[Wesrock]

Just speaking for my parish, I believe the best way to rejuvenate sacrament prep and disposition is to take sacrament prep out of the hands of the school.

If you look at the statistics at our school, only about 20% of our families are practicing Catholic. The school has become a privileged refuge from public education. Honestly, if it were not expected of them as part of the “curriculum”, not many would participate. The same 20% are the only ones who bother to bring their children to receive first Communion bibles at Mass, and will be the same 20% who continue on. And so, maybe the others should not be participating if the disposition and intent are not present. If the desire and disposition for the sacraments is there, call the parish. One thing we have been discussing is an RCIA type program that includes all those inquiring for the sacraments, age appropriately of course.

In the present cultural climate, a decision should be encouraged and an intentional choice made to participate in the sacraments.
Otherwise the cycle of trivialized sacramental participation continues.

If we’re just talking about running teens through a sacrament-mill, I agree with you. Teens should assent to it, at least on some level. Though I’m not sure the current setup is that great to begin with, which may have been part of the angle of my post before. The sacraments of initiation shouldn’t be the end of formation.

 

[Wesrock]

Sorry for the typos. I was posting fro my phone.

These threads just make me so angry.
Little support for education, yet people complain about the level of education.
Try working a 60 hour week with little pay, lousy benefits if any, and a handful of faithful volunteers who really love and care about the children.

I got chewed out for offering Youth Group on Superbowl Sunday, for heaven’s sake.
That’s the level of parental concern we’re dealing with .
I was advised "don’t ever do that again ".
I’m mandated to have a certain number of classes per year to keep certified by the Diocese. So I guess people want to come into June for classes? No, they just won’t show up. And when I tell them their child didn’t have sufficient attendance for sacraments in the following year, I will get chewed out again, and over-ridden.
The Diocese sets the rules people. Not the educators.

I agree with you. A turn around must come from us in the pews, and parents at home, both meaning that parents bring the church into their home lives and by offering better support at the parish.

 

[pianistclare]

I agree with you. A turn around must come from us in the pews, and parents at home, both meaning that parents bring the church into their home lives and by offering better support at the parish.

Thank you so much. I could hug you.

 

[frizzgrig]

I got chewed out for offering Youth Group on Superbowl Sunday, for heaven’s sake.
That’s the level of parental concern we’re dealing with .
I was advised "don’t ever do that again ".

My parish had a Super Bowl party for the youth group. Just a thought…

(Honestly if it is the parents doing the chewing/advising I would send them to the pastor. If it is the pastor, well I’ll be praying for you, him, and the parish.)

 

[goout]

I agree with so much of what you’re saying here, and have thought about this issue a lot.

Here is the remedy I’ve wondered about:

I’ve wondered if the Church needs to withhold confirmation until the person indicates that there is a firm committent to living the Christian life.

Even the name itselt, confirmation, implies that there is a definite decision to follow Christ.

That is what makes sense to me.

This is the approach I’m talking about.
It’s not about denying sacraments. At the very least, they should be asked for out of a desire, not mindlessly gotten.

 

[goout]

Sorry for the typos. I was posting fro my phone.

These threads just make me so angry.
Little support for education, yet people complain about the level of education.
Try working a 60 hour week with little pay, lousy benefits if any, and a handful of faithful volunteers who really love and care about the children.

I got chewed out for offering Youth Group on Superbowl Sunday, for heaven’s sake.
That’s the level of parental concern we’re dealing with .
I was advised "don’t ever do that again ".
I’m mandated to have a certain number of classes per year to keep certified by the Diocese. So I guess people want to come into June for classes? No, they just won’t show up. And when I tell them their child didn’t have sufficient attendance for sacraments in the following year, I will get chewed out again, and over-ridden.
The Diocese sets the rules people. Not the educators.

You are illustrating the issue well. And I apologize if this thread causes you grief.
The problem isn’t necessarily with catechists, at it’s heart it’s about a systemic way of doing things that is failing to equip Catholics to live in the world and stay faithful. The way we are doing things is designed for a long-gone culture that does not require a contrary faith stance to be taken.
We no longer live in that culturally Catholic world.
And I am just repeating myself, so that’s it…

I am a catechist as well through the RCIA process and we are blessed to have people who have made the intentional decision to enter the Church, sometimes in the face of hostile relatives. They want to be there.

 

[Gorgias]

The problem isn’t necessarily with catechists, at it’s heart it’s about a systemic way of doing things that is failing to equip Catholics to live in the world and stay faithful. The way we are doing things is designed for a long-gone culture that does not require a contrary faith stance to be taken.

This!

The problem is … that there are many problems.

Worse yet, they vary by parish and diocese.

Sometimes, it’s well-meaning but poorly catechized (or poorly supported) catechists.
Sometimes, it’s the mandates of a diocesan system that doesn’t align well with current needs.
Sometimes, it’s parents who are just checking off the boxes, but aren’t committed to the project.
Sometimes, it’s parents who don’t go to weekly Mass, and don’t ensure that their children do.
Sometimes, it’s parish leadership who don’t create environments in which excellence is valued and expected.
Sometimes, it’s a combination of these.

Always, when one or more of these are present, it’s frustrating for those who are trying their best to make it work within the constraints they’ve been given.

 

[goout]

This!

The problem is … that there are many problems.

Worse yet, they vary by parish and diocese.

Sometimes, it’s well-meaning but poorly catechized (or poorly supported) catechists.
Sometimes, it’s the mandates of a diocesan system that doesn’t align well with current needs.
Sometimes, it’s parents who are just checking off the boxes, but aren’t committed to the project.
Sometimes, it’s parents who don’t go to weekly Mass, and don’t ensure that their children do.
Sometimes, it’s parish leadership who don’t create environments in which excellence is valued and expected.
Sometimes, it’s a combination of these.

Always, when one or more of these are present, it’s frustrating for those who are trying their best to make it work within the constraints they’ve been given.

All of us have a role to play.
I just think that taking the reflexive “usual and customary” aspect out of sacrament reception would be one universal action that might cause people to think seriously about what they are committing to.

 

[Brendan]

The sacraments are not a magic pill leading to sanctity. The are the gateway to the depths of grace. Depth. Depths require some plumbing or they remain uncovered.

True, and no one here is equating Grace with magic. But the Sacraments themselves impart Grace, and it would be an error to state that the Grace imparted by the Sacraments is without effect.

How do you address these?:

How can an unaware person make a profession of faith?

The Godparent speak on behalf of the person.

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”

Baptism is what imparts Faith, as well as the other theological virtues of Hope and Charity. Humans cannot develop Faith without Baptism.

And that Grace is Baptism, the infusion of the theological virtues, is strenghend via Confirmation

1285 Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the “sacraments of Christian initiation,” whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.89 For "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed."90

Take a look at the bolded part, is not that what you seek? For the child to be “more perfectly bound to the Church”?

Hence, the solutions that you seek are what the Sacraments themselves offer. Faith, binding to the Church, and becoming true witnesses of Christ.

 

[Phemie]

In our parish parents and children are required to attend classes and retreats before they are admitted to the sacraments. Parents are the first educators of their children. Perhaps, it is not the children who need instruction, but parents.

AMEN!

During the period that we were celebrating Confirmation before First Communion in our diocese the process required the parents to attend the sessions with their children and the work at home also required parental involvement. The parents told us they got as much out of those sessions as the kids did but they also expressed their reticence to be “catechists” because they didn’t feel they knew enough about the Church to teach anyone.

In a society where catechesis has been taught in the schools without parental involvement beyond a note sent home saying “First Communion will be on Mothers’ Day, be there” it’s little wonder they feel less than adequate.

 

[PJM]

The sacraments are not a magic pill leading to sanctity. The are the gateway to the depths of grace. Depth. Depths require some plumbing or they remain uncovered.

How do you address these?:

How can an unaware person make a profession of faith?
The CCC goes on to detail the stages that a committed RCIA adult must take to embrace the sacraments of initiation in 1232 and 1233.
So, the Church already knows that discernment and decision is the way, yet we have an antiquated discipline that seeks to “crop dust” our young with the sacraments, and send them into families and a culture that do nothing to reinforce the faith. We are no longer living in 19th century Europe. The sacraments are not bearing fruit in our families, schools and Churches (speaking statistically…).

Dear Friend!

While there MIGHT be a bit of veracity in your stated position; the generalities and “all-inclusiveness” seem to IMO, negate it’s merit.

While I would agree [AND HAVE DONE SOMETHING ABOUT IT] , that as the NORM, RCIA programs, restricted by time constraints can do little more than introduce our beautiful Catholic Faith, *, the Church desires that New Converts pursue a period of Mystogia

“ R.C.I.A. (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults)

R.C.I.A. is a formal education process for adults who are seeking entrance into the Catholic Church or (for adults) the Sacrament of Confirmation. R.C.I.A. holds weekly meetings on Sunday mornings September through Pentecost. This process culminates when the candidate becomes fully initiated at Easter Vigil (on the night of Holy Saturday). After becoming a full member of the Roman Catholic Church and St. Mary Immaculate Faith Community, a continued “Mystogia” (continued formation) takes place for six weeks after Easter - so the newly initiated continues to move forward in daily and life-long commitments to the Lord. Inquiries are welcome at any time of the year!”

This is an example of what the Church advocates.

The newly elected are informed that THEY have a responsivity to further their Faith formation; to further form and inform rightly their conscience. CCC #1783, and that THEY are to take the imitative to do so.

And YES, I’m aware that some parishes may not offer a specific program for Mystogia, and that this could be seen as “passing the buck.” However RCIA is for ADULTS, who ought to be mature enough to take this responsibility seriously.

BUT every parish I am aware of offers Bible studies, and many offer courses such as “FORMED” at no charge. Some also offer men’s, and ladies faith-formation classes. Is it all-inclusive? No, BUT it is heading in the right direction.

SEE you’re DRE [Director of religious Education] in your Parish to see what they offer.

FOR ANYONE INTERESTED: After retiring from active ministry, being aware of this need; I developed A TOTALLY FREE OF ALL COST, home study E-Mailed course: BUILDING BLOCKS OF OUR CATHOLIC FAITH; that is designed to supplement what RCIA does not normally have time to cover. I cover far more topics, all in greater depth & stress providing the evidence of our Catholic Faith beliefs & practices. One Lesson is mailed each week, and I also answer ALL Faith related questions. This course is now in its 8th year.

Just send me a Private Message if you’re interested. [PJM]

God Bless you
Patrick*

 

[PJM]

I wonder if post communion/confirmation courses would help. I don’t think we always know what to do with post confirmation teens these days to be honest.

PLEASE

See my reply POST #34

 

[PJM]

I agree it would not be good to force parents to take classes as a prerequisite. Not advocating that. There should be a desire and disposition to receive the sacraments. Simply inquiring about sacraments is indicative a parent or person desires a sacrament. We don’t even let *that *minimum happen.
Worse than requiring classes might be the current situation in which sacraments are another thoughtless stepping stone to a nice private education.

WHILE I’m NOT in favor of forced parental classes, I Do nevertheless, strongly advocate that EVERY parish make available resources and then STRONGLY advocate them; such as "FORMED:, Bible studies. and further Adult Faith formation in convenient times, so that MANY can advantage them.

Please see my post #34 reply also

GBY

 

[PJM]

I agree with so much of what you’re saying here, and have thought about this issue a lot.

Here is the remedy I’ve wondered about:

I’ve wondered if the Church needs to withhold confirmation until the person indicates that there is a firm committent to living the Christian life.

Even the name itselt, confirmation, implies that there is a definite decision to follow Christ.

That is what makes sense to me.

Actually, that IS I Think, what the Church intends be done

GBY

 

[PJM]

If we’re just talking about running teens through a sacrament-mill, I agree with you. Teens should assent to it, at least on some level. Though I’m not sure the current setup is that great to begin with, which may have been part of the angle of my post before. The sacraments of initiation shouldn’t be the end of formation.

Optional Confirmation classes for many; would tend to negate parental responsibility and authority, not to mention usurp their responsibilities:

Our Catechism:
**
2223 Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children. They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the “material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones.” Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them:

He who loves his son will not spare the rod. . . . He who disciplines his son will profit by him.

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord
**

If we make Conformation instruction an option for our kids; Many will opt OUT, and they are not mature enough to make such a decision IMO

GBY

 

[PJM]

This!

The problem is … that there are many problems.

Worse yet, they vary by parish and diocese.

Sometimes, it’s well-meaning but poorly catechized (or poorly supported) catechists.
Sometimes, it’s the mandates of a diocesan system that doesn’t align well with current needs.
Sometimes, it’s parents who are just checking off the boxes, but aren’t committed to the project.
Sometimes, it’s parents who don’t go to weekly Mass, and don’t ensure that their children do.
Sometimes, it’s parish leadership who don’t create environments in which excellence is valued and expected.
Sometimes, it’s a combination of these.

Always, when one or more of these are present, it’s frustrating for those who are trying their best to make it work within the constraints they’ve been given.

As one who has taught CCD, RCIA and Adult faith formation for nearly 30 years; may I ask a rhetorical question here?

And WHAT are YOU doing about it? [please see my post #34]::newidea:

GBY

Patrick

 

[Vico]

Some groundwork:
I live in the US.
We have infant Baptism, First Communion at about 8 years, and Confirmation at about 13.
Concurrently, catholic families and schools are failing to raise Christian disciples. In ever increasing numbers, the souls receiving these sacraments are not “opening the gift” and are wandering off into a life of indifferentism.

Sherry Weddell’s “Forming Intentional Disciples” book comes to mind. The book observes the problem, but doesn’t really see a practical way forward. The way forward is difficult. It should be difficult.
At the same time we decry the lack of intentional Christian discipleship, we don’t ask those coming to the sacraments to make any intentional decision for Christ.
You can’t have it both ways. Either we do something to bring about intentional living, or intentional discipleship is just a feel-good phrase.

Receiving the source and summit of the Christian life (Eucharist) should coincide with some decisiveness on the part of the receiver. The Church here has closed this door to decisiveness by keeping these sacraments in the context of a nice dress, a party, and pictures to be thrown into an album. ““And let me warm up my SUV so my child can get in and go.””

This might have worked when the culture supported Christian values. If we look around, the culture has abandoned Christianity. **The way we are doing things as catechists and schools is not working. **

And a working definition of insanity is to do the same ineffective thing over and over.
Stop the merry go round.
The Church needs to start seeing mature commitment before administering sacraments of initiation.

We (as the US Church) are failing absolutely miserably at this. There is no excuse.

In the eastern Catholic churches there is infant Baptism, Chrysmation, and Communion given at the same time. This emphasizes the action of the Holy Spirit, rather than the communion with the bishop, and strengthens them as they develop. Infants are nurtured with Communion even as infants. Catechesis is post Christian initiation for infants there.