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psalm90
Guest
No “We” are not. The bishops and priests are in charge of everything. Go to the source.
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Vico
Guest
In 2015 it was noted by OSV that "Ten dioceses or archdioceses offer (or will offer) the sacraments of initiation in the restored order. They are:
Saginaw, Michigan (1995)
Great Falls-Billings, Montana (1996)
Portland, Maine (1997)
Spokane, Washington (1998)
Fargo, North Dakota (2002)
Gaylord, Michigan (2003)
Tyler, Texas (2005)
Phoenix (2005)
Honolulu (2015)
Denver (2015)"
osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/ByIssue/Article/TabId/735/ArtMID/13636/ArticleID/17817/Restored-order-for-sacraments-a-growing-trend.aspx
Have you read or heard of others since then?
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goout
Guest
Yes, parents are responsible for passing on the faith to their children.
How were their attitudes toward the sacraments and the Christian life formed?
What about their parents?
If you go back far enough, you will find a culture where this deficiency wasn’t glaring, because the culture reflected our values.
That world is long gone.
How were their attitudes toward the sacraments and the Christian life formed?
What about their parents?
If you go back far enough, you will find a culture where this deficiency wasn’t glaring, because the culture reflected our values.
That world is long gone.
M
MissRose73
Guest
I was confirmed at age 17 and it was a few years before my diocese moved Confirmation back to grade 2 (age 7/8). Now that my diocese moved it back, my church has seen a drop off in the number of children who stay in religious education. Our church states that all children who wish to receive 1st Communion and Confirmation must attend 1st and 2nd grade classes at church even if they attend Catholic schools. No rules are in place beyond requiring attendance in 3rd grade and beyond but some parents do have kids going still. The sad thing is that in addition to kids not going to religious education beyond grade 3, many don’t go to Mass either.
A few neighboring dioceses have pushed Confirmation age to around 13/14 (grade 7/8). The requirements are tougher and better in my opinion from reading church websites and bulletins including Mass attendance, religious education, retreats, and doing volunteer things at church. Some even require they go to religious education for another year or 2 after Confirmation plus do a liturgical/church ministry like choir, altar serve, catechism aide, etc. The kids as teens should understand that Confirmation is a big step and with it learning to gradually take on adult like responsibilities when it comes to their faith life.
A few neighboring dioceses have pushed Confirmation age to around 13/14 (grade 7/8). The requirements are tougher and better in my opinion from reading church websites and bulletins including Mass attendance, religious education, retreats, and doing volunteer things at church. Some even require they go to religious education for another year or 2 after Confirmation plus do a liturgical/church ministry like choir, altar serve, catechism aide, etc. The kids as teens should understand that Confirmation is a big step and with it learning to gradually take on adult like responsibilities when it comes to their faith life.
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goout
Guest
Given that a bishop knows his diocese and it’s needs better than anyone else…
The OSV article does not understand this point about “earning” the sacraments. It confuses preparation, discernment, and a desire for the sacraments with earning them. Not so.
Specifically, this exchange is mystifying in it’s misunderstanding of sacramental grace:
““provide the most sacramental graces””
““want more graces…””
Does this not reinforce the notion that the sacraments are something to be “gotten” for grace, as if grace is a quantity of stuff that comes in a box?
It’s akin to “OSAS”, without an emphasis on the preparation and response to sacraments that are necessary to participate in a life of grace.
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tafan
Guest
Yes, I think that the sacraments are something that can be gotten for the grace. Not they they are stuff in a box, but that grace literally flows through the sacraments.Given that a bishop knows his diocese and it’s needs better than anyone else…
The OSV article does not understand this point about “earning” the sacraments. It confuses preparation, discernment, and a desire for the sacraments with earning them. Not so.
Specifically, this exchange is mystifying in it’s misunderstanding of sacramental grace:
““provide the most sacramental graces””
““want more graces…””
Does this not reinforce the notion that the sacraments are something to be “gotten” for grace, as if grace is a quantity of stuff that comes in a box?
It’s akin to “OSAS”, without an emphasis on the preparation and response to sacraments that are necessary to participate in a life of grace.
I agree with others on this thread who say that the sacraments should be in a restored order and confirmation should be at the age of reason, just as first communion and confession are now.
While I agree with the gout that what we are doing now is not working. Well, we have been delaying confirmation until the teenage years for close to 30 or 40 years now. I do not see why we should move further down the line of what is not working (ie move other sacraments to older ages like we have confirmation).
I think we have to realize that the heart of the problem is lack of formation of the parents, and that started occurring in the previous generation (almost 2 generations now). So it will take a while to work out of that rut.
Speaking as a parent who tries hard to raise my kids in the Catholic faith, I would hate to see my young children not having access to communion and confession. It would be a severe blow. I do not think that Saint Pius X err’d in moving first communion to the age of reason.
You say that the " The sacraments should be desired, especially Eucharist and Confirmation". I tell you, second graders can be taught to desire the Eucharist very strongly, and I would say more times than not, do desire the Eucharist very strongly. The problem comes in later years.
Having taught confirmation preparation CCD classes to young teenagers, it is harder to make them desire the sacraments than second graders. As I said, the problems come in later years. The Church is not making a mistake in granting the children the sacraments which they can (and often do) desire. The parents are failing in keeping the faith alive and growing and further forming the kids. Again, many of the parents have been poorly formed themselves (that is on the Church).
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
I am a Confirmation catechist. With the new Bishop we got 3 years ago, our Confirmation program changed to a 2-year program that cannot be started until a student is in 8th grade.
I have students, who have been through, presumably, 7 years of faith formation.
95% of them don’t know the Our Father, Hail Mary, or Glory Be.
75% of them do not attend Mass weekly.
100% (yes, every single one!) of my students say they are only there because their parents are making them.
Some say it’s the Church’s fault, and they share in the blame, bu the blame needs to go where it belongs- on parents.
I can’t tell you how many older parishioners I visit who lament the fact that their children & grandchildren do not practice the faith. Many of them say, "I sent them to Catholic schools, we went to Church on Sundays, but now they don’t.
My question to them is "Did you ‘live’ your faith at home? Did you pray, read the Bible together. Most of the time the answer is "No’, we figured they were getting what they needed in school (or CCD).
This is the crux of the problem. Too many parents don’t want to be bothered to learn their faith and think that it is the job or parish staff to build the faith of their child. I only get my kids for 1.5 hours, every other week from September to May. How am I supposed to form them in anything if everything I teach is undermined by parents & society?
To the OP, you seem to have lots of solutions- my question to you is have YOU volunteered at your parish to implement any of your ideas?
I have students, who have been through, presumably, 7 years of faith formation.
95% of them don’t know the Our Father, Hail Mary, or Glory Be.
75% of them do not attend Mass weekly.
100% (yes, every single one!) of my students say they are only there because their parents are making them.
Some say it’s the Church’s fault, and they share in the blame, bu the blame needs to go where it belongs- on parents.
I can’t tell you how many older parishioners I visit who lament the fact that their children & grandchildren do not practice the faith. Many of them say, "I sent them to Catholic schools, we went to Church on Sundays, but now they don’t.
My question to them is "Did you ‘live’ your faith at home? Did you pray, read the Bible together. Most of the time the answer is "No’, we figured they were getting what they needed in school (or CCD).
This is the crux of the problem. Too many parents don’t want to be bothered to learn their faith and think that it is the job or parish staff to build the faith of their child. I only get my kids for 1.5 hours, every other week from September to May. How am I supposed to form them in anything if everything I teach is undermined by parents & society?
To the OP, you seem to have lots of solutions- my question to you is have YOU volunteered at your parish to implement any of your ideas?
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goout
Guest
Yes I have. Extensively. For a number of years. I wouldn’t be mentioning it if I hadn’t.I am a Confirmation catechist. With the new Bishop we got 3 years ago, our Confirmation program changed to a 2-year program that cannot be started until a student is in 8th grade.
I have students, who have been through, presumably, 7 years of faith formation.
95% of them don’t know the Our Father, Hail Mary, or Glory Be.
75% of them do not attend Mass weekly.
100% (yes, every single one!) of my students say they are only there because their parents are making them.
Some say it’s the Church’s fault, and they share in the blame, bu the blame needs to go where it belongs- on parents.
I can’t tell you how many older parishioners I visit who lament the fact that their children & grandchildren do not practice the faith. Many of them say, "I sent them to Catholic schools, we went to Church on Sundays, but now they don’t.
My question to them is "Did you ‘live’ your faith at home? Did you pray, read the Bible together. Most of the time the answer is "No’, we figured they were getting what they needed in school (or CCD).
This is the crux of the problem. Too many parents don’t want to be bothered to learn their faith and think that it is the job or parish staff to build the faith of their child. I only get my kids for 1.5 hours, every other week from September to May. How am I supposed to form them in anything if everything I teach is undermined by parents & society?
To the OP, you seem to have lots of solutions- my question to you is have YOU volunteered at your parish to implement any of your ideas?
You illustrate the problem well with this:
Again, doing the same thing for successive generations is not wise. Asking for more of a response on the part of parents and candidates may drive home the importance of living the faith.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
This has not worked for our Diocese. I just stated that we now have a mandatory, 2-year Confirmation preparation, that begins in 8th grade. My parish has seen a drop of about 50% in Confirmation candidates. The biggest reason given- “2 years is too long, and what about all the other activities my kid is in- they don’t have time.”
This problem did not happen overnight, and it will not change overnight.
Instead of making kids go through hoops for their Confirmation, we should make the parents go through the same hoops when they get married. Getting married in the Church, then making the decision to Baptize your children is not just a “milestone” or “excuse for a party”, it a serious issue, that far too many do not take seriously.
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kc456
Guest
My kids are not engaged in religious ed. nor do they feel a connection to the church or the faith through it. If anything, the opposite.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
I would love to hear why?My kids are not engaged in religious ed. nor do they feel a connection to the church or the faith through it. If anything, the opposite.
I, as a volunteer, and our new Youth Minister are trying to revitalize our program, yet we are having a hard time getting (name removed by moderator)ut from kids, teens or parents.
Our new youth minister is new to our area, but has many years of experience in the SW with youth formation. She is shocked by what she has seen here, and all I can do is agree with her. There is an apathy towards the faith in my area, and we just don’t know how to fix it.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
y’all should look at the practice in the Eastern Christian churches, because what they do is they arw baptized, confirmed, and receive the Eucharist as infants
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tafan
Guest
Certainly it can be changed by the conference of bishops, but the universal norm is at the age of discretion for the sacrament of confirmation.
This can be certainly be achieved for a 7 year old.
All of the legitimate problems with kids not being formed well enough are not going to be solved by delaying the sacraments. Period. If I am wrong, please explain why.
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kc456
Guest
They are bored, and it’s like school. They have a book and a teacher. However, during Vacation Bible School, they enjoy it. There are activities, crafts, snacks, great songs, etc. It’s a really positive, energetic week. Our religious ed. program is despised by four of my kids at all levels, so…I really don’t know what to do about it. But it is not reaching them.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
Thanks for the feedback.
I know that our religious ed program for the k-7 kids is pretty engaging. Songs, crafts, not just “book learning”, but hands-on stuff too.
I am teaching Confirmation prep this year. Our Confirmation requirements changed a couple years ago, and now it is a 2-year program tht starts in 8th grade. What scares the daylights out of me, is that these kids, who have presumably been catechised for 8 years, in what is a pretty decent program by the standards in my diocese, have absolutley no foundation of faith.
I don’t know the answer, but I know that finding adults who are willing to put the time into teaching faith formation, and who will go the extra mile to make things fun and educational, all for no pay and all the blame, is not an easy task.
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tafan
Guest
I will note that “its like school” should be a hint as to one of the solutions. Kids often don’t particularly enjoy school, yet many of them learn to read, learn math, history, etc. I think one of the big advantages of a catholic school is that their religious education is part of their school. They know they are expected to learn it just like any other subject. Do they all excel at it, no. But many of them learn it quite well. Difficult to do in an evening CCD class when they are tired of school. I have taught CCD, I know. Its tough. Even the smart kids, who would learn their faith really well if it was “at school” are not interested.
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Vico
Guest
You sound confident in the words you wrote, but then add a shrug like you do not understand. Do you not understand?Given that a bishop knows his diocese and it’s needs better than anyone else…
The OSV article does not understand this point about “earning” the sacraments. It confuses preparation, discernment, and a desire for the sacraments with earning them. Not so.
Specifically, this exchange is mystifying in it’s misunderstanding of sacramental grace:
““provide the most sacramental graces””
““want more graces…””
Does this not reinforce the notion that the sacraments are something to be “gotten” for grace, as if grace is a quantity of stuff that comes in a box?
It’s akin to “OSAS”, without an emphasis on the preparation and response to sacraments that are necessary to participate in a life of grace.
Those fifteen bishops of there dioceses, per your comment, then know their dioceses the best and have chosen restored order.
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Usige
Guest
My oldest daughter is a confirmation catechist in our diocese were confirmation is confered in 8th grade and after 2 years of classes. Most of the kids say they haven’t been to mass or confession since 2nd grade when they received first communion and their parents drop them off for Mass and classes, but don’t attend regularly. Even after 4 years (2 before 1st communion and 2 before confirmation), the vast majority know less about their faith than I did as a protestant before conversion.
On the flip side, two of my kids are about to be confirmed at 7 and 9. The 9 year old received first communion at 7 and the 7 year old will receive next year (either side of a change to the restored order). My oldest (now in her early 20s) received baptism, confirmation and 1st Eucharist at 8 via RCIC. Only my oldest son was confirmed as a teen. Despite 3 of the 4 receiving ‘early’ they still have faith and know the faith as appropriate to the age.
It is not a question of age, understanding or formal classes that makes a difference, but how the faith is lived in the home. If the parents do not live the faith and share it with their kids it won’t matter if you mandate 20 years of study with a PhD before the sacraments are confered. The sacraments are about faith, not knowledge. Yes we must be open to the gifts, but that does not mean that we need to understand every nuance and make a rational decision to accept the fulness of those graces.
Personally I think the mandation of specific age or grade should be abolished as well as the checklist that kids need to hit X,Y,Z activities, but rather that the sacraments be confered when requested in accord with Can 843. That is not to say that a bishop cannot, nor should not, have requirements but rather that we should not treat it as an academic exercise where students are “rewarded” for perseverance in attending classes and dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s.
Our current system seems to think that it can impart understanding through academics while seeming to forget understanding is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that is strengthen in confirmation. Often times it seems we are our own worst enemies by putting barriers up when kids need the graces the most. The past 30, 40, 50+ years of withholding confirmation until years of RE doesn’t seem to be helping keep the majority engaged in their faith so perhaps we need to strengthen our kids before Satan weakens the moral underpinnings via our secular society.
On the flip side, two of my kids are about to be confirmed at 7 and 9. The 9 year old received first communion at 7 and the 7 year old will receive next year (either side of a change to the restored order). My oldest (now in her early 20s) received baptism, confirmation and 1st Eucharist at 8 via RCIC. Only my oldest son was confirmed as a teen. Despite 3 of the 4 receiving ‘early’ they still have faith and know the faith as appropriate to the age.
It is not a question of age, understanding or formal classes that makes a difference, but how the faith is lived in the home. If the parents do not live the faith and share it with their kids it won’t matter if you mandate 20 years of study with a PhD before the sacraments are confered. The sacraments are about faith, not knowledge. Yes we must be open to the gifts, but that does not mean that we need to understand every nuance and make a rational decision to accept the fulness of those graces.
Personally I think the mandation of specific age or grade should be abolished as well as the checklist that kids need to hit X,Y,Z activities, but rather that the sacraments be confered when requested in accord with Can 843. That is not to say that a bishop cannot, nor should not, have requirements but rather that we should not treat it as an academic exercise where students are “rewarded” for perseverance in attending classes and dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s.
Our current system seems to think that it can impart understanding through academics while seeming to forget understanding is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that is strengthen in confirmation. Often times it seems we are our own worst enemies by putting barriers up when kids need the graces the most. The past 30, 40, 50+ years of withholding confirmation until years of RE doesn’t seem to be helping keep the majority engaged in their faith so perhaps we need to strengthen our kids before Satan weakens the moral underpinnings via our secular society.
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Usige
Guest
One of the challenges is that many treat youth as a monolithic culture. Some kids will love crafts, others will utterly hate it. Some teens love charismatic worship, others would rather stick their heads in a blender. In trying to be engaging you run the risk of driving other kids away. The best bet is to be flexible and not treat it like all kids will love the same things. If you don’t account for differences you run the risk of guessing wrong and alienating as many as you draw in.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
Thanks for this and your other comment.
I am new to the whole youth ministry thing, and I have no children of my own, so it has been a challenge, as things have changed A LOT since I was a teen in the early 80’s!
We are trying to empower the teens to take more “ownership” of the program instead of them relying on us to “entertain” them for 2 hours.
One thing we are going to try is having a Ministry/Service day- we are going to have student (HS & College) representatives come and talk about the ministries they are involved in- lectoring, altar serving, Social Ministry, and then have different stations where we will be doing different projects- making cards for shut-ins, helping clean out a garage on our campus, putting together “funeral kits” (little baskets w/ packs of kleenex, breath mints, handi-wipes and a little note of condolence for families), yard work and planting around the church buildings, and a bunch of other little projects that will be varied in their scope. We are going to make it a “fun” day., with pizza & snacks, we are asking the kids to invite their friends (Catholic & non-Catholic).
It is a challenge, but it has also been very rewarding. I might not be able to reach all of them, but I do know that I have made a difference for a couple of them.
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