Stop giving sacraments of initiation to the unaware

[Usige]

We are trying to empower the teens to take more “ownership” of the program instead of them relying on us to “entertain” them for 2 hours.

One thing we are going to try is having a Ministry/Service day- we are going to have student (HS & College) representatives come and talk about the ministries they are involved in- lectoring, altar serving, Social Ministry, and then have different stations where we will be doing different projects- making cards for shut-ins, helping clean out a garage on our campus, putting together “funeral kits” (little baskets w/ packs of kleenex, breath mints, handi-wipes and a little note of condolence for families), yard work and planting around the church buildings, and a bunch of other little projects that will be varied in their scope. We are going to make it a “fun” day., with pizza & snacks, we are asking the kids to invite their friends (Catholic & non-Catholic).

It is a challenge, but it has also been very rewarding. I might not be able to reach all of them, but I do know that I have made a difference for a couple of them.

That seems a reasonable approach. I guess my whole point was to be careful of the trap that all kids want a high energy program where they are constantly “doing”. Anywhere between 1/8 to 1/2 of kids are introverts. The charismatic, in your face type programs can be very wearing on those kids. It can make it very difficult for them to be engaged when they dread going into an environment like that. As a society we often disregard the value of quiet contemplation which many of these kids might thrive in. In group discussions these kids might be more engaged if they have time to be by themselves and ponder the questions first rather than just throwing something out and wanting immediate responses.

When I say the program needs to be flexible I guess what I mean is that it has to respect and take into account that God speaks to us in different ways. I have floated leading a more quiet, contemplative youth group but it was rejected as “not what kids want”. And yet, when I was a teen that is exactly what I wanted. I wanted to talk about the depths of the faith and the implications and not simply look at the externals and have a party. I might have been in the minority, but I don’t think people have changed that much in 25-30 years that there are not kids that need a quieter approach to plumb the depths of their faith.

 

[MissRose73]

I volunteer at the weekly school year time K-6 program as a classroom sub, snack server, receptionist, and occasional class aide/presenter in my parish. The teachers do their best to teach but the books I’ve seen seem very watered down compared to my mother’s generation with the Baltimore Catechism. I know I grew up in the 80’s where the catechesis was not the best but I did read the Bible and Lives of the Saints etc (and still am).

Some kids in the older grades barely know the basic memory prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be and Grace Before Meals) and some of the kids admit not going to Mass. Whose fault is it that the kids do not know the basics of their faith much less going to Mass on a regular basis? I would blame the parents as they are supposed to be the 1st teachers of faith When they get their kids into a program, they should be the back up teacher in the home, and reinforcing what is taught in the classroom. They should be showing the good example of Mass attendance and manners being important as well.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

That seems a reasonable approach. I guess my whole point was to be careful of the trap that all kids want a high energy program where they are constantly “doing”. Anywhere between 1/8 to 1/2 of kids are introverts. The charismatic, in your face type programs can be very wearing on those kids. It can make it very difficult for them to be engaged when they dread going into an environment like that. As a society we often disregard the value of quiet contemplation which many of these kids might thrive in. In group discussions these kids might be more engaged if they have time to be by themselves and ponder the questions first rather than just throwing something out and wanting immediate responses.

When I say the program needs to be flexible I guess what I mean is that it has to respect and take into account that God speaks to us in different ways. I have floated leading a more quiet, contemplative youth group but it was rejected as “not what kids want”. And yet, when I was a teen that is exactly what I wanted. I wanted to talk about the depths of the faith and the implications and not simply look at the externals and have a party. I might have been in the minority, but I don’t think people have changed that much in 25-30 years that there are not kids that need a quieter approach to plumb the depths of their faith.

Thank you! Again some great advice here!!

I am an extrovert, who really enjoys her “quiet time”, so I am very conscious of the fact that not all kids want activity. I think this is where some of the problems might be. Some of these kids are so used to being “active” all the time, they do not understand the value of silence. We try to incorporate a little silence into every session during our prayer time, and we encourage them to try to add some silence during their day. For some, the have mentioned that they find it pretty easy, for others, not so much. I tell them it’s like anything else- a sport, an instrument, you have to practice, practice, practice!

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I volunteer at the weekly school year time K-6 program as a classroom sub, snack server, receptionist, and occasional class aide/presenter in my parish. The teachers do their best to teach but the books I’ve seen seem very watered down compared to my mother’s generation with the Baltimore Catechism. I know I grew up in the 80’s where the catechesis was not the best but I did read the Bible and Lives of the Saints etc (and still am).

Some kids in the older grades barely know the basic memory prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be and Grace Before Meals) and some of the kids admit not going to Mass. Whose fault is it that the kids do not know the basics of their faith much less going to Mass on a regular basis? I would blame the parents as they are supposed to be the 1st teachers of faith When they get their kids into a program, they should be the back up teacher in the home, and reinforcing what is taught in the classroom. They should be showing the good example of Mass attendance and manners being important as well.

I agree with most of what you say here.
My question is- how do we get the parents to do this??

The general attitude I have heard this past year is, “Isn’t that what you get paid for?”
First of all, I am a volunteer, who does not get paid.
Second, when parents are told that they are the “primary educators” the complain that they don’t know, so how can they teach it at home? Yet, less than half the parents show up for the monthly parent session held at the same time as faith formation classes.

And don’t get me started about “adult faith formation”, we have offered a variety of programs, all based on what people we asking for- if we got 10 people (and usually the same 10 for all events) we were lucky. It is very frustrating!

 

[goout]

I agree with most of what you say here.
My question is- how do we get the parents to do this??

The general attitude I have heard this past year is, “Isn’t that what you get paid for?”
First of all, I am a volunteer, who does not get paid.
Second, when parents are told that they are the “primary educators” the complain that they don’t know, so how can they teach it at home? Yet, less than half the parents show up for the monthly parent session held at the same time as faith formation classes.

And don’t get me started about “adult faith formation”, we have offered a variety of programs, all based on what people we asking for- if we got 10 people (and usually the same 10 for all events) we were lucky. It is very frustrating!

Nevertheless, adult formation is going to have to happen. If you only get 10, keep trying. We found that our adult formation was centered on juvenile presentations (our parish staff is focused on keeping the school viable).

We now have a men’s scripture study that draws 15-20 men every week. And this is having an effect on men’s lives. The discussion is carried home to wives, sons and daughters.

Parents are not responsible for faith formation, **because they were never held responsible by anyone. **
Responsibility.
They just got the sacraments like candy.
On it goes.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Nevertheless, adult formation is going to have to happen. If you only get 10, keep trying. We found that our adult formation was centered on juvenile presentations (our parish staff is focused on keeping the school viable).

We now have a men’s scripture study that draws 15-20 men every week. And this is having an effect on men’s lives. The discussion is carried home to wives, sons and daughters.

Parents are not responsible for faith formation, **because they were never held responsible by anyone. **
Responsibility.
They just got the sacraments like candy.
On it goes.

I agree with you on everything, but the withholding of Sacraments. There has to be another way. To say that they are “given out like candy” is also part of the problem, IMHO. Sacraments are not rewards for knowledge they are gifts of Grace. I agree that we need to do something about formation, but this is not a new problem.

My mother went to Catholic schools from 1953 to 1965. She learned from the Baltimore Catechism, and the good Sisters of St. Joseph, and other than the rote learning answers, she does not know the hows or whys of her faith. In fact, she has learned more from me in the past 8 years while I have been working on my Master’s in Theology, than she did in 12 years of Catholic education. How was she supposed to help me?

 

[goout]

I agree with you on everything, but the withholding of Sacraments. There has to be another way. To say that they are “given out like candy” is also part of the problem, IMHO. Sacraments are not rewards for knowledge they are gifts of Grace. I agree that we need to do something about formation, but this is not a new problem.

My mother went to Catholic schools from 1953 to 1965. She learned from the Baltimore Catechism, and the good Sisters of St. Joseph, and other than the rote learning answers, she does not know the hows or whys of her faith. In fact, she has learned more from me in the past 8 years while I have been working on my Master’s in Theology, than she did in 12 years of Catholic education. How was she supposed to help me?

That’s a pivotal time. My parents received the sacraments in roughly 1933. When our parents went through Catholic formation, the culture was not radically opposed to their faith. So our parent’s parents could receive the sacraments, never pursue further formation, still be faithful, hand on the faith to our parents. My parents had no idea that my faith would be challenged so radically. We never even talked about it. We went through the motions. Which is not a bad thing, but it’s not a full response to the sacraments.

At some point, the lack of full response coupled with an unsupportive culture exposed this lack of formation. I just think going through the motions has to be challenged.

The sacraments are a gift of grace. It is also good solid theology to recognize that those graces have to be accepted. The gift has to be opened. If the gift is not going to be opened, the sacrament will not work like magic.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

The sacraments are a gift of grace. It is also good solid theology to recognize that those graces have to be accepted. The gift has to be opened. If the gift is not going to be opened, the sacrament will not work like magic.

So, do you think that the Eastern Rites of the Church are wrong for bestowing all 3 Initiation Sacraments on infants?

If it can work for them, why not for us Latins?

 

[goout]

So, do you think that the Eastern Rites of the Church are wrong for bestowing all 3 Initiation Sacraments on infants?

If it can work for them, why not for us Latins?

I don’t know anything at all about the formation of their people. I would never say it’s wrong.

And I don’t know how else to say this: it’s not about the sacraments working, it’s about our people working with the sacraments, our disposition towards them.
If the graces received are not realized and active in our lives, maybe we need to change the way we do things.

 

[tafan]

I don’t know anything at all about the formation of their people. I would never say it’s wrong.

And I don’t know how else to say this: it’s not about the sacraments working, it’s about our people working with the sacraments, our disposition towards them.
If the graces received are not realized and active in our lives, maybe we need to change the way we do things.

I can see changing the way we do things. I don’t see why we should further delay more sacraments, like we have with confirmation, which is one of the things you seem to be proposing. That’s just doing what hasn’t been working more.
Again, I concur with you that there are many, many kids who are not well catechized going into their teenage years. How does delaying first communion, confession solve this problem?

 

[Usige]

The sacraments are a gift of grace. It is also good solid theology to recognize that those graces have to be accepted. The gift has to be opened. If the gift is not going to be opened, the sacrament will not work like magic.

I would agree that they are not magic, but let me provide an illustrative example.

A man has three son. At the first son’s birth he gives him a flask that always has water in it. The first son always has the flask with him and constantly asks his father about it. When his second son is born, he again gives his new son a flask that always has water. The second son has it in his pack, but never asks his father about it and soon forgets about it. When the man’s third son is born, he remembers the lack of curiosity of his second son and does not give him his birth right when he is born. Instead he sets it on the shelf and waits until his son asks enough questions and earnestly requests it. Each of his sons are told of the properties of their birth right, but only the first son wants to know more about it.

When each son comes of age they are sent on a journey across a parched and arid land. The first son know that he can draw water from the flask any time he needs to and the journey is uneventful.

The second son starts out and having forgotten the flask he sets out wandering from water hole to water hole. The going is slow but he continues pushing forward. Soon he comes to place without any water. After 3 days of wandering without finding water and about to collapse, he sits down next to a rock and digging in his pack he find the flask that he had forgotten so long ago. He doesn’t remember much that his father said, but after a brief prayer he opens the flask and his thirst is quenched. He occasionally forgets the flask, but makes it to the end of the journey. At the end of his journey he is resolved to learn more about this miraculous flask that saved him in times of trouble.

The third son leaves on his journey without his flask. You see, he never expressed enough interest to ask his father for his birthright. Like the second son he wanders and finds water holes, but when he gets to an area with no water there is nothing for him to draw on. After several days he collapses near a rock. He looks repeatedly in his pack, but there is nothing there to help him. As he breaths his last, he wonders about the flask that was on the shelf; what had his father said? Alas, it was too late to ask him.

Okay, like all analogies it is imperfect but it does still provide a useful reference.

Yes, it would be ideal if all the sons were like the first, but would we really want to treat everyone like the third son? Many people are rather like the second son. In that case the gift forgotten, but opened when in need is certainly better than withholding the gift so it is not there when needed.

I completely agree that we shouldn’t just line kids up at a certain age and run them through the mill and hope fort the best. But at the same time they can access the graces given even if they are unaware of precisely where they come from. Just like the second son in my story, the gift is freely given. If he never found the flask it would have done him no good, but how could he open the gift if it was never given to him?

 

[goout]

I would agree that they are not magic, but let me provide an illustrative example.

A man has three son. At the first son’s birth he gives him a flask that always has water in it. The first son always has the flask with him and constantly asks his father about it. When his second son is born, he again gives his new son a flask that always has water. The second son has it in his pack, but never asks his father about it and soon forgets about it. When the man’s third son is born, he remembers the lack of curiosity of his second son and does not give him his birth right when he is born. Instead he sets it on the shelf and waits until his son asks enough questions and earnestly requests it. Each of his sons are told of the properties of their birth right, but only the first son wants to know more about it.

When each son comes of age they are sent on a journey across a parched and arid land. The first son know that he can draw water from the flask any time he needs to and the journey is uneventful.

The second son starts out and having forgotten the flask he sets out wandering from water hole to water hole. The going is slow but he continues pushing forward. Soon he comes to place without any water. After 3 days of wandering without finding water and about to collapse, he sits down next to a rock and digging in his pack he find the flask that he had forgotten so long ago. He doesn’t remember much that his father said, but after a brief prayer he opens the flask and his thirst is quenched. He occasionally forgets the flask, but makes it to the end of the journey. At the end of his journey he is resolved to learn more about this miraculous flask that saved him in times of trouble.

The third son leaves on his journey without his flask. You see, he never expressed enough interest to ask his father for his birthright. Like the second son he wanders and finds water holes, but when he gets to an area with no water there is nothing for him to draw on. After several days he collapses near a rock. He looks repeatedly in his pack, but there is nothing there to help him. As he breaths his last, he wonders about the flask that was on the shelf; what had his father said? Alas, it was too late to ask him.

Okay, like all analogies it is imperfect but it does still provide a useful reference.

Yes, it would be ideal if all the sons were like the first, but would we really want to treat everyone like the third son? Many people are rather like the second son. In that case the gift forgotten, but opened when in need is certainly better than withholding the gift so it is not there when needed.

I completely agree that we shouldn’t just line kids up at a certain age and run them through the mill and hope fort the best. But at the same time they can access the graces given even if they are unaware of precisely where they come from. Just like the second son in my story, the gift is freely given. If he never found the flask it would have done him no good, but how could he open the gift if it was never given to him?

I definitely see the necessity of providing access to grace. Baptism especially that I should probably not be including here due to the nature of it.

A better analogy to throw into your narrative above is a parent who knows that children receive flasks of water and so gets his sons a flask for no other particular reason than it is customary. And the flask ends up sitting in the corner of the house because no one knows what the flask is for, let alone that it is full of water.

So yes, when the desert comes around (aka “college”) there is no water to be found, in fact there is not even a realization that water is needed.

 

[Usige]

I definitely see the necessity of providing access to grace. Baptism especially that I should probably not be including here due to the nature of it.

A better analogy to throw into your narrative above is a parent who knows that children receive flasks of water and so gets his sons a flask for no other particular reason than it is customary. And the flask ends up sitting in the corner of the house because no one knows what the flask is for, let alone that it is full of water.

So yes, when the desert comes around (aka “college”) there is no water to be found, in fact there is not even a realization that water is needed.

True. In many ways we have the descendants of the second son who just pass on the flask as an heirloom without knowing why it is valuable. But… having the flask is still better than locking it away and then several generations later no one knowing it exists. It still has purpose just waiting to be realized. We never know if someone 5 generations down the road will rediscover it’s value.

 

[goout]

True. In many ways we have the descendants of the second son who just pass on the flask as an heirloom without knowing why it is valuable. But… having the flask is still better than locking it away and then several generations later no one knowing it exists. It still has purpose just waiting to be realized. We never know if someone 5 generations down the road will rediscover it’s value.

We also don’t know if the casual disregard for the gift will lead to worse consequences. Like fewer and fewer people participating in the sacraments. Which is what** is **actually happening, ironically.

 

[MissRose73]

I agree with most of what you say here.
My question is- how do we get the parents to do this??

The general attitude I have heard this past year is, “Isn’t that what you get paid for?”
First of all, I am a volunteer, who does not get paid.
Second, when parents are told that they are the “primary educators” the complain that they don’t know, so how can they teach it at home? Yet, less than half the parents show up for the monthly parent session held at the same time as faith formation classes.

And don’t get me started about “adult faith formation”, we have offered a variety of programs, all based on what people we asking for- if we got 10 people (and usually the same 10 for all events) we were lucky. It is very frustrating!

All of the teachers and aides/subs in our K-6 program are volunteers. We do what we do because we want to teach & share our faith to the youngsters. We can do only do so much in a weekly 90 minute session from the end of September to mid May with a few breaks for Christmas and Holy Week then Easter. We can only hope that the parents are asking the kids what did you learn in class and also getting them to Mass on a weekly basis.

I also participate in a few of the adult faith formation things too but at the same time to get more people to come is not easy. People claim they have other things that take up their time - some things I can see as important, others are not. Some of the classes have a morning session & an evening one to try to draw people into coming to them.