Stop Tearing Apart Jesus' Body!

[sancte_joseph]

Please note that it was Msgr. Bux that brought up the Eastern Churches in the interview quoted at some length here, not I.

Why do you hate Eastern Churches being brought up?

Does our existence disturb the preferred perception (or fantasy) of a totally uniform Church?

Are we somehow inferior?

Are we supposed to get in the back of the bus or something?

Frequently, our experience, witness, and uses can show a way of resolving hard-liners who are butting heads on opposite sides of an issue.

Eastern Churches ARE traditional.

Deal with it.

Well thanks for ignoring my whole message… i said that yes the eastern churches are important very important because the body of Christ is not complete with out them… but the reason I hate when people bring this up is because just as the eastern liturgies should NOT be latinized. The Roman Catholic mass should NOT be easternized… if that makes sense…

 

[sancte_joseph]

If “kneeling is better”, why aren’t we kneeling when the Gospel is read?

Because we don’t adore the words spoken… but we do adore THE WORD incarnate.

 

[distracted]

If you say, “The reception of Holy Communion is divided because one manner is better than the other!” than yo do not know yourself, for you offend the Lord both by your tongue and by your hand. None of your organs are worthy of the Lord, yet still He comes to you.

!

we are to receive on the tongue because, for one, someone could take the Host and desecrate it after Mass… it happens!! We are told to protect the Host always… It is Christ…

also, an ordained priest is the only one who should be handling the Host… his hands are consecrated…

yes, in a sense we are all, via our baptism, “priest, prophet and king”… as the RCC teaches… but priests are … wholly consecrated to Christ & his Church…

 

[distracted]

so
so you are ok with the disobedience of the bishops and priests to the holy father?

.

please explain…

please list as many ways in which they are disobedient as you can…

because i am confused about this…

I have heard it both ways… that

1. the pope is in favor of Communion in hand…
2. the pope is in favor of hand-holding during the Our Father…
3. and the greeting during mass…
4. other things i can’t recall right now…

never have gotten a concrete answer on any of these things…

but i tend to believe that the pope does NOT like Communion in the hand… If i am wrong, Pope B is not as orthodox as i always thought… :crying:

 

[pnewton]

I don’t think the Body of Christ is in any danger here. There is a need for many variations of spirituality to meet the needs of a diverse humanity. This is why the Church allows some diversity in its unity.

People here are not reflective of the general Church and many would never be as harsh in person as they are here. That is the nature of the internet. We do need a greater charity toward each other and a greater understanding of when we go beyond Church teaching and into opinion. Those that upset you, pray for them. They are damaging only themselves, not the body of Christ.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\I’ve never heard anyone include any other traditions in Traditional Catholicism.\

**I do all the time. So does the Church.

You seem to be thinking that somehow Eastern Catholicism isn’t “traditional”.l**

 

[wisdomseeker]

please explain…

please list as many ways in which they are disobedient as you can…

because i am confused about this…

I have heard it both ways… that

1. the pope is in favor of Communion in hand…
2. the pope is in favor of hand-holding during the Our Father…
3. and the greeting during mass…
4. other things i can’t recall right now…

never have gotten a concrete answer on any of these things…

but i tend to believe that the pope does NOT like Communion in the hand… If i am wrong, Pope B is not as orthodox as i always thought… :crying:

please show where the holy father says it is ok for communion in the hand. that is what our bishop here says.
where does the pope says the holding hands during our Father is ok.
show where the pope says it is ok to have modern music during Mass.
tell me where the pope says it is ok for us to have teachings of centering prayer for Catholics.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

\I’ve never heard anyone include any other traditions in Traditional Catholicism.\

**I do all the time. So does the Church.

You seem to be thinking that somehow Eastern Catholicism isn’t “traditional”.l**

We can argue about this until tomorrow and beyond. You seem like a lonely voice when it comes to this question. Eastern Catholicism is traditional but it is not the same thing as discussed in this thread. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut but I still consider Trad Catholicism to be Latin.

 

[JustaServant]

The Year of the Lord is not divided pre-VCII and post-VCII. The Year of the Lord is one single Age, the Age of the Church, which extends from the Resurrection to the Second Coming.

I agree with this. Only the most extrreme believe the post-V2 Church to be a different Church.
However, one cannot deny the abuses of the post-V2 era either. Many parishes today seemed locked into the 60s and 70s. Many who are into the 'spirit of Vatican 2" seem to be under the impression that the Church began at that point. Many of them seem to be dividing by being locked into a 1960s time warp.
I think the real question that arises is: how should we worship that gives due reverance for the Eucharist?
I did not come back to the Catholic Church to participate in what looks like a Protestant worship service. What then, is the point of returning? I might as well go back to crackers and grape juice.
I came back to the Eucharist. The ultimate expression of God’s love for His children. And many times, what I see is a forgetting of why we go to church to begin with.
If the Eucharist is at the center of Catholic worship, then how are we to approach Him?

 

[distracted]

I agree with this. Only the most extrreme believe the post-V2 Church to be a different Church.
However, one cannot deny the abuses of the post-V2 era either. Many parishes today seemed locked into the 60s and 70s. Many who are into the 'spirit of Vatican 2" seem to be under the impression that the Church began at that point. Many of them seem to be dividing by being locked into a 1960s time warp.
I think the real question that arises is: how should we worship that gives due reverance for the Eucharist?
I did not come back to the Catholic Church to participate in what looks like a Protestant worship service. What then, is the point of returning? I might as well go back to crackers and grape juice.
I came back to the Eucharist. The ultimate expression of God’s love for His children. And many times, what I see is a forgetting of why we go to church to begin with.
If the Eucharist is at the center of Catholic worship, then how are we to approach Him?

well, don’t you think that’s going a little far… (“what looks like a protestant worship service”)

It is still a very Catholic Mass… very different from protestnt services…

still… i wish we’d go back to the traditional Mass…

I really hate the hand-holding, the greeting, Communion in hand… The 2nd one is very distracting during Mass… we interrupt our communion w/ God to focus on fallible (sometime not very nice, i might add) human beings…

 

[jam070406]

well, don’t you think that’s going a little far… (“what looks like a protestant worship service”)

It is still a very Catholic Mass… very different from protestnt services…

still… i wish we’d go back to the traditional Mass…

I really hate the hand-holding, the greeting, Communion in hand… The 2nd one is very distracting during Mass… we interrupt our communion w/ God to focus on fallible (sometime not very nice, i might add) human beings…

There was a guy that sat next to me at work. He was Lutheran and was married to a Catholic woman. He said there was practically zero difference between the Catholic Mass he and his wife now attended and the Lutheran service he used to go to. We had talked about him converting but he said he couldn’t stand the hand holding and the shaking of hands in the Catholic Mass, which actually didn’t happen at his Lutheran service, so he was thinking of returning to the Lutheran service. He had also mentioned that he and his wife received communion in both churches, in the hand I might add, as if it were no big deal.

 

[JustaServant]

well, don’t you think that’s going a little far… (“what looks like a protestant worship service”)

It is still a very Catholic Mass… very different from protestnt services.

I can’t speak for liturgical Protestant churches, except a few Episcopal churches I attended. However, there are certain characteristics. In Baptist worship services, there is no sense of respect and awe of being in the house of God. I find the same feeling in many parishes. People are talking, it is difficult to pray silently when the people behind you are having a conversation. The biggest beef for me is the ‘folk’ band. In many Baptist churches worship is reduced to gawking at a singer on stage who looks more like he/she is on “American Idol” than in a church. I find the same in many parishes. Participation in it is just passive listening. We have to ask ourselves: do we want our Churches are filled with spectators? worship is by gawking, not participating?
Yes, it might still look very different from protestnt services. But why are we imitating Protestant worship errors? Why are we trying to be something we are not?

 

[guanophore]

I love how traditionalists are always the bad guys, even when the current Holy Father is moving more and more in their favor. Perhaps if all the priests and bishops would be obedient to the Holy Father and to the decrees of Vatican II concerning the Liturgy, then there wouldn’t be all this fuss about the Liturgy. The traditionalists just want what the Church teaches we should have and is our right as Catholics to receive. If you want to talk about tearing apart the Church, write a post about all the priests and bishops who disobeyed the Council and who now disobey the Pope and ignore his example of Liturgical renewal.

Well said Ryan. Disobedience and hubris are at the core of this problem. Ordained persons being neglectful, or downright rebellious have allowed separation to enter. This is the work of the One who always divides and separates, the One who was a liar and murderer from the beginning.

 

[pnewton]

But why are we imitating Protestant worship errors? Why are we trying to be something we are not?

I do not think “error” is a proper term, but I do thing you must have seen the worst of the worst. Most Catholic Church’s do not have a stage. There is a raised altar instead. I have never seen any muscians at the altar during Mass.

 

[Layman]

I think this is an issue that will resolve itself in fifteen to twenty years time. I’ve heard that liberal seminaries are near-empty and that traditional ones are full.

Now, that may be a generalisatioin, but it tallies with what I see in the parishes I go to. They have a vocations crisis. Now they’re at that stage of “We have only two seminarians in the entire diocese” and “My workload has increased because I have to take on X parish as well”.

When the older priests retire, who will replace them? Over time, traditionalist priests. Not a big rush. It’ll take a couple of decades. Hopefully. As they will be the only ones left.

Unless anyone on here knows of a surge in vocations of priests eager to say/celebrate the O.F./N.O.?

The things that really get people worked up about the O.F. were not intended by the Vat. II council or Paul VI: CITH, EHMCs, folksy hymns, bare churches, priest versus-populum etc. People can legitimately complain about them. If the priest, lay lectors, choir and EMHCs are the focus of the attention of the congregation, and we’re all facing each other, like a stage performance, and the Host can be given out like bread, it cues people into not taking the business seriously.

So we have people saying you must show due reverence for The Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass while those officiating are doing their best to mitigate against that. Having the rite in the local lingo also mitigates against reverence; the words will have mundane associations.

And then we wonder why Mass attendance is down, people dress casually and there’s a vocation crisis. The cue is coming from the altar and the choir loft. Why give up family, money and your freedom for something the current practitioners are treating like an easy-going show, rather than an awesome, sacred rite directed towards The Lord of Creation?

 

[JustaServant]

I do not think “error” is a proper term, but I do thing you must have seen the worst of the worst. Most Catholic Church’s do not have a stage. There is a raised altar instead. I have never seen any muscians at the altar during Mass.

They’re are at the altar. They are off the platform to the right of the church. It has the same effect. It takes the attention off the altar and on to the performers.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Pnewton, during the 80s, my cathedral choir was to the right of the apse. It was embarrassing to be applauded after major feasts (Christmas and Easter). We all gave a sigh of relief and uttered a profound “Deo gratias” when the choir loft was rebuilt in 1992. None of us in the choir want to be “performers” like I see at my local geographic church where the musicians are miked and amplified and just off to the right of the altar. We fill the cathedral with music. We are not miked nor are we amplified.

Eucharisted? Sorry, my young friend. I am a dinosaur to you. I’m not dead yet; I’m feeling better. I was in high school when Vatican II came about. I have entirely different memories than you and I. I expect that those memories should be honored.

Tearing apart Jesus’ body is a two way street. I have valid memories as an altar boy from 1959 through 1968 which get no creedence because you have only grown up with what you have known.

Eucharisted? I was perfectly happy with Holy Mother Church in 1967. Believe it or not, no I did not speak Latin but I did know that “credo in unum Deo” meant I believe in one God. When I was not serving on the altar, I was out in the congregation with my parents. We had missals. We did not pray the rosary during Mass, we followed along. SHOCKING! :bigyikes: Yes, shocking. We followed along in our missals.

Guess what? We also sang and participated. There was the dialogue Mass where we responded in Latin to pretty much everything we respond to in English in the OF. Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo. Sursum corda. Habemus ad Dominum.

And on most Sundays the 10:30 Mass was a High Mass or Missa Cantata. Guess what? The congregation chanted the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei in Latin. :bigyikes:

Please explain to me how I am tearing apart Jesus’ body by wanting a return to that which I knew as a child? No guitars, no drums, no miked and amplified choir, no liturgical dancing, no chit-chat before Mass, etc., etc., etc.

 

[pnewton]

They’re are at the altar. They are off the platform to the right of the church. It has the same effect. It

How can they be both at the altar and off the platform to the right of the church. Is the altar off to the right of the Church?

 

[JustaServant]

How can they be both at the altar and off the platform to the right of the church. Is the altar off to the right of the Church?

I meant to say to the right of the platform and the altar. I miswrote. I am fighting a sinus infection and I will make mistakes.

 

[JustaServant]

Tearing apart Jesus’ body is a two way street. I have valid memories as an altar boy from 1959 through 1968 which get no creedence because you have only grown up with what you have known.

That’s the key right there. No wonder I keep hearing 60s tunes at Mass.