Story of Job

[Flavius_Aetius]

Hello, Recently I was asked to read the story of Job to help understand our Human suffering in light of an all-powerful and omnibenevolent God. Well I tried reading the meaning but I cannot find the love or justice if God purposely allowed Job to be tortured in such a manner. Even the ending seems morally empty; sure he is given back his health and a new family, but that doesn’t take away the fact that God allowed for his children to die by the manipulation of Satan. Also why was he rewarded? Throughout the time of suffering Job mentions wishing he was never born and other horrible things.

I suppose this was suppose to help, but honestly it did not and the fact that there had to be this entire contest about it between God and Satan only makes it more clear how different Christianity is to Judaism.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hello, Recently I was asked to read the story of Job to help understand our Human suffering in light of an all-powerful and omnibenevolent God. Well I tried reading the meaning but I cannot find the love or justice if God purposely allowed Job to be tortured in such a manner. Even the ending seems morally empty; sure he is given back his health and a new family, but that doesn’t take away the fact that God allowed for his children to die by the manipulation of Satan. Also why was he rewarded? Throughout the time of suffering Job mentions wishing he was never born and other horrible things.

There have been days when I wish I wasn’t born because of how I have been betrayed by my wife – it doesn’t make me angry at God, it is simply a reaction to suffering intense pain for an extended duration. God does not claim that Job “sinned” because he wished he weren’t born – quite the opposite God maintains Job’s holiness at that point.

At one point, Job says to his first wife : foolish woman. Think about it. She is the mother of his children, and she shows signs of an evil that she taught to her children. In the end, I would think it better that God took her and replaced her with a woman of different character. Forgiveness only goes so far in the face of buried evil.

Regarding the death of his children; if they are holy – he will see them in heaven. What is death to God? You’re on one side of it, then the other – but he sees you in both. You aren’t lost to him – he is the God of the living. Death is but a temporary setback.

Satan had a claim on the children; but if their death was out of proportion to their sin – God will grant them heaven in exchange for their suffering. Without their death, they may not have been saved – it is this kind of detail which is a question of mercy.

God can’t do all things, for we have freedom of will. But he can arrange things so that even good comes out of evil to some degree. Job, too, learns something in the end.

I suppose this was suppose to help, but honestly it did not and the fact that there had to be this entire contest about it between God and Satan only makes it more clear how different Christianity is to Judaism.

That’s a mistake. God is the same in the Old and the New testaments. How he is depicted has changed based on the sensitivities of the people writing throughout the ages, but if you don’t see the same God of Judaism as of Christianity – you have misread the scriptures. I know it isn’t an easy task, but you have to look carefully at what is presented and not judge quickly or rashly, for much of scripture takes a special wisdom and maturity to understand.

I see things in Job that you do not – and my experiences are closer to his, I would guess – but I can still Love God, and feel Loved by him even in the light of the Book of Job.

 

[TimothyH]

Regarding the death of his children; if they are holy – he will see them in heaven. What is death to God? You’re on one side of it, then the other – but he sees you in both. You aren’t lost to him – he is the God of the living. Death is but a temporary setback.

Satan had a claim on the children; but if their death was out of proportion to their sin – God will grant them heaven in exchange for their suffering. Without their death, they may not have been saved – it is this kind of detail which is a question of mercy.

Excellent points in your post.

I think humanity has forgotten, or simply ignores the fact that everyone dies. I wish we would all stop complaining that it is unfair.

-Tim-

 

[ChiRho]

the point is to accept that God’s will is just, whether you like it or not. Are you really in a position to argue with God that he is wrong?

The God of the Jews is the same God of the Christians, so I would caution you to not treat them as different, and that the “Christian God” is better than the “Old Testament God”, which is absurd.

Submission to God’s will, and not to arrogantly suppose that man knows best is what Job taught me.

 

[Curious1324]

Hello, Recently I was asked to read the story of Job to help understand our Human suffering in light of an all-powerful and omnibenevolent God. Well I tried reading the meaning but I cannot find the love or justice if God purposely allowed Job to be tortured in such a manner. Even the ending seems morally empty; sure he is given back his health and a new family, but that doesn’t take away the fact that God allowed for his children to die by the manipulation of Satan. Also why was he rewarded? Throughout the time of suffering Job mentions wishing he was never born and other horrible things.

I suppose this was suppose to help, but honestly it did not and the fact that there had to be this entire contest about it between God and Satan only makes it more clear how different Christianity is to Judaism.

I think it’s particularly intriguing that “Satan” in the book of Job is someone who basically works for God. God and Satan are not opposed to one another in this narrative. Good point.

 

[CactusMoon33]

huiou theou

in ur post ur said :quote God can’t do all things, for we have freedom of will quote: God can do whatever he wants!! He just CHOSES not to! that was either worded badly or my understanding of the catholic catechism is incredibly flawed

 

[Huiou_Theou]

huiou theou

in ur post ur said :quote God can’t do all things, for we have freedom of will quote: God can do whatever he wants!! He just CHOSES not to! that was either worded badly or my understanding of the catholic catechism is incredibly flawed

No, God can’t lie, because he is the truth. By definition it is not possible for the truth to lie. Even St. Thomas does not say, “God can do all things” – point blank – rather Thomas says, God can do all that can be done.

It is not possible for us to have free will, and for it not to be free in the same way at the same time. If God has given us free will, then he hasn’t given us a fiction. Your understanding of the catechism is flawed if you disagree with this point.

God CAN force a person to do something, but then – it isn’t them that is doing it, rather it is God.

If you try to make God all powerful by taking away the freedom he has given man, then God becomes one who punishes those who had no choice. That isn’t consistent with the teaching of scriptures and leads to heresy of double predestination.

 

[bogeydogg]

Hello, Recently I was asked to read the story of Job to help understand our Human suffering in light of an all-powerful and omnibenevolent God. Well I tried reading the meaning but I cannot find the love or justice if God purposely allowed Job to be tortured in such a manner. Even the ending seems morally empty; sure he is given back his health and a new family, but that doesn’t take away the fact that God allowed for his children to die by the manipulation of Satan. Also why was he rewarded? Throughout the time of suffering Job mentions wishing he was never born and other horrible things.

I suppose this was suppose to help, but honestly it did not and the fact that there had to be this entire contest about it between God and Satan only makes it more clear how different Christianity is to Judaism.

Job is hard.

I think the point of the book is that in the purposes of God suffering is allowed for the sake of God’s glory. We should not be surprised by this.

First off God makes it clear again and again that He seeks His own glory and does not share it with anyone. We may find this to be unsavory but remember that God is absolutely and perfectly good, and the greatest and highest good is to love and glorify God, therefore if God did other than love Himself and seek His own glory then He would cease to be good and thus also cease to be God.

So God allows Satan to destroy Job’s family, property and health and He does it to prove to Satan that those who are His will persevere in the most terrible of ordeals. We may think this to be a gross and heinous act, but remember those who suffered and died for the faith in the history of the Church are called martyrs and we generally refer to them as Saints. So we should not be surprised that God allows suffering for His own glory.

As far Judaism and Christianity being different you need to read up in the Marcion Heresy, this has been settled Church doctrine for about 17 centuries. There is no difference between God on the OT and NT and the understanding of God did not change.

And if you still find it unpalatable that God would allow the innocent to suffer for His own glory then may I please refer you to Calvary where THE Innocent One suffered for the glory of God in the most heinous injustice of all time, and we refer to this as the greatest moral good ever accomplished.

The issue in the Book of Job is that sometimes it is hard to see why things happen the way do and still believe God is just and good. When God speaks to Job He reminds him of two things; one who God (where were you when I…) and two who Job is (can you bring the mighty low… would the one who contends with the Almighty judge Him… can you save yourself by the power of your own arm). When Job gets the picture he says, “I have heard of You but now I see You therefore I repent in dust and ashes.”

The story of the book, as tough as it is, is that if we see God we will remember that even in our suffering God knows what He is doing and He is just. And if we forget that we sin.

God Bless

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Let me be absolutely clear:

Titus 1:2 επ ελπιδι ζωης αιωνιουην επηγγειλατο** ο αψευδης θεος** προ χρονων αιωνιων
Titus 1:2 … had promised, the unlying God, before times eternal.

Many English translations will correctly state, “God who can’t lie, has promised”
Or again; The Latin states:

Titus 1:2 in spem vitæ æternæ, quam promisit qui non mentitur, Deus, ante tempora sæcularia :

Who cannot decieve;

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/non#Latin
Notice the verb ending in the example is the same, the phrase is identical with “deceive” being replaced with “read”.

In neither example is a verb of “being” added, It isn’t “God does not lie.”, rather it is his very name – God, Unlying. Or God who can not lie.

To make the point very strongly, Jesus doesn’t merely say “I don’t lie”, rather he says something stronger:

John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

In Genesis, God “said” and it was. The word, by being spoken, causes creation to happen – out of nothing, by raw power. The very same power makes it impossible for God to lie, for the very reason that if he opened his mouth to actually speak it – the very act would make it “be”.

This is a deep mystery. One that Job gets a partial answer to in the end – existence itself requires the problem of evil. Two mutually exclusive things (contradiction) are not in God; evil and Good; In God is only Good, and only God is good. There is no shadow, no hint of evil in God himself. His name is “Good” and his name is “God”, these are synonymous. And therefore, evil’s very existence is not created by him – and he can’t create evil itself.

Rather, evil is when someone relatively perfect, as was Adam, who can stay in union with God – chooses to break his friendship with God; wanting to be perfect without the source of perfection; and therefore, he no longer is told the answers by God – but is left to his own ignorance and inevitably, ignorance itself will lead to multiplication of sins (if not direct culpability).

I don’t agree with saying “God can lie”, but he never will – although I once thought that way; Think about it – what proof would you or anyone offer that God “can” do actual moral evil ? Is it not a guess, a conjecture, a dreaming of power being the ability to sin? Is it not making God in man’s image by insinuating a “possibile” blackness inside God? I don’t think that has any reality.

I hope this helps with Catechism. I don’t fault you for wanting to defend God’s power – but I think it more important to defend his ultimate Goodness in an apologetic setting.

–Peace.

 

[Steadfast_love]

Hello, Recently I was asked to read the story of Job to help understand our Human suffering in light of an all-powerful and omnibenevolent God. Well I tried reading the meaning but I cannot find the love or justice if God purposely allowed Job to be tortured in such a manner.

If I competed in the Olympic games it would be torture – lifting all those weights, running until I puke and breaking my neck on the ski slopes. But for an Olympic champion, it would be torture NOT have the chance to compete. Job is the same way, he is so rightious that things that look like torture and certain failure to us are the crowning achievement to Job’s life.

Even the ending seems morally empty; sure he is given back his health and a new family, but that doesn’t take away the fact that God allowed for his children to die by the manipulation of Satan. Also why was he rewarded? Throughout the time of suffering Job mentions wishing he was never born and other horrible things.

Job complained because winning is hard work. He was rewarded because he was victorious. You do see that the big reward wasn’t the new kids right?

I suppose this was suppose to help, but honestly it did not and the fact that there had to be this entire contest about it between God and Satan only makes it more clear how different Christianity is to Judaism.

I dunno about Judaism, but Job and Christianity are a perfect fit. In particular all that stuff about “running to win the race” and “not fearing what can kill the body” fits together with Job perfectly.

By the way, don’t blindly accept unorthodox ideas like the so-called “omnibenevolence” of God. It’s easier to resist apostacy the beginning.

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

Thank you all for your responses, I’ll try and read the story again when I’m in a better frame of mind.

By the way, don’t blindly accept unorthodox ideas like the so-called “omnibenevolence” of God. It’s easier to resist apostacy the beginning.

At first I was going to cite Catholic Encyclopedia about this but then I find that Catholics apparently don’t use that phrase to describe God. Why is that? Do we accept that God can promote evil, is that the reason?

 

[ActuallyAquinas]

I suppose this was suppose to help, but honestly it did not and the fact that there had to be this entire contest about it between God and Satan only makes it more clear how different Christianity is to Judaism.

Um…you kind of left this open, what difference became clear between Christianity and Judaism?

 

[ActuallyAquinas]

By the way, don’t blindly accept unorthodox ideas like the so-called “omnibenevolence” of God. It’s easier to resist apostacy the beginning.

Are you saying that G-d is not all good?

 

[bogeydogg]

Are you saying that G-d is not all good?

Yes God is good, but benevolence means good intentioned not good. The Bible makes it clear that God does not have a good will toward all poeple. Jesus tells us that the pharisees of their father the devil, while this does not mean mroe than one creator I think it does mean that it is possible to live in such a way that God removes his good will from us.

Also there is nothing to make us think God has anything like a benevolent spirit toward Satan.

 

[Steadfast_love]

Thank you all for your responses, I’ll try and read the story again when I’m in a better frame of mind.

At first I was going to cite Catholic Encyclopedia about this but then I find that Catholics apparently don’t use that phrase to describe God. Why is that? Do we accept that God can promote evil, is that the reason?

Omnibenevolent gods are too fragile to co-exist with suffering, death or anything non-benevolent. Catholics reject omnibenevolence because we believe that suffering exists. We believe that Jesus suffered and died under Pontius Pilate for example.

…but the reason I offered a warning is because the Omnibenevolence trick seems to be popular lately. Basicaly it goes like this:

God is a unicorn
Unicorns do not exist
Therefore, God does not exist.

The rookie error is to focus on the last part (Unicorns to not exist, Therefore…) instead of the false definition (God is a unicorn). And there are sneaker things to use than a unicorn. In this case the term “pathologicaly benevolent” is hidden in the euphamism “omnibenevolent.” That blends in with Omnipotence and Omniscience. Or perhaps even hidden as “the classical definition of the thrice-omni God.” If you swallow that false definition you’re dead, but it’s difficult to spot because it’s hidden inside a euphamism inside a bundle of divine attributes inside a so-called ‘classical’ definition which ascribes to God the attributes of non-gods, namely their omnibenificence and non-existance.

But for all the rhetorical flourishes, saying God is omnibenevolent is no better than saying God is a unicorn.