Story of Noah: Who believes it to be real?

[Brian_Millar]

There is the “C” factor humans have working in their favor, C, as in compassion. In the world of animals, one that has a birth defect or becomes maimed will find it hard, if not impossible to survive. With humanity, these individuals still find a means to exist unlike the animal kingdom. There is also the “B” factor, as in we use our brains to counter what our enviroment forces the animal kingdom to have to endure directly, ie. we create our own shelter and we know how to plan ahead of time, stockpiling necessary supplies to get through the tough times, that and we innovate effectively in any given situation, not relyiing upon only our physical capacity which in turn allows these numbers to exist along what is clearly outlined.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Hmm… by the “it has to be a constant growth rate” argument, the mass of fruit flies should equal that of the earth by now.

In fact, human population has fluctuated over time, and only recently achieved the spectacular increases we see today.

census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html

 

[peary]

Are you being sarcastic? I can’t tell. If your being serious…how can my questions be considered nit picking…Noah’s ark is being claimed as historical fact.

If it’s historical fact, then these logistical problems and even scriptural issues need to be addressed.

And what logistical problems and scriptural issues might those be?

 

[Will_B]

I find this very interesting… I was just looking around and found this thread…

Yes, I believe that story of Noah is true… Are all the facts 100% accurate? I’m sure God or a saint on the other side of the vale will let me know, if I still care to know, when I reach Heaven.

First the story of Noah was handed down by oral tradition, like most of the book of Genesis… Moses wrote the book of Genesis under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit… I’m sure that the story was written to help the reader know God and his Love for the human race. What can you learn from the story? God’s mercy, God’s love, God’s wrath, God’s mighty power, and God’s covenant with mankind.



Will B.

 

[onetimeposter]

And what logistical problems and scriptural issues might those be?

How did Noah deal with the 500,000 insects?

How did Noah deal with microscopic organisms that live only on earth? How Noah have even known if they were present? It was Noah’s job to collect them and they didn’t have microscopes back then!

How Did Noah deal with the Polar Bears, Walruses, Penguins, Arctic Foxes etc…how could they have survived in a hot boat in the Middle East…how did they get to the Middle east?

How did Noah deal with the spread of disease from all of the waste products, vermin and disease carrying insects?

How could Noah and his family possibly have cleaned up after thousands upon thousands of animals? I worked on a horse farm when I was a young chap, it was hard keeping up with only 8 horses! ( I kid you not)

How could Noah have stored meat for the carnivores, without the meat going bad? How could Noah even have collected, via hunting all that necessary meat…even if he had thousands of sheep or cattle, slaughtering all those animals would take weeks! and all in just the right amount of time before the flood, so that it wouldn’t rot before the rain? And all the while, hunting or farming thousands of tonnes of meat, while building the Arc?

How did Noah keep the 500,000 insects away from the meat and spoiling it with fecal matter from the thousands of tonnes of daily waste products?

How could Noah have lived to have been 950 years old? The average life expectancy in Canada is something like 83. We have better health care today, than they did 5000 years ago.

I’ve read that human cells start breaking down once we hit our 30’s, as the body slowly starts dying naturally…

That’s just a few logistical problems off the top of my hand.

 

[onetimeposter]

And what logistical problems and scriptural issues might those be?

A scriptural issue is this…

Once the animals were let out of the ark…wouldn’t the earth have turned into a barren waste land, having been under water for so long?

How could the animals have survived without vegetation?

If we are to believe that all human beings come from Noah’s family…wouldn’t that mean, you know…cousins getting married and stuff?

If every human being on earth comes from Noah and his family, how do we explain the different people in the world, be they Inuit, Africans, Indians, Aboriginals, Europeans, Scandinavians, Russians, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Arabs, Jews?

How do you explain the different races all over the earth all coming from the same small family?

 

[peary]

How did Noah deal with the 500,000 insects?

The Bible doesn’t mention ‘insects’.

How did Noah deal with microscopic organisms that live only on earth?

The Bible doesn’t mention microscopic organisms which weren’t even known back then, since the microscope wasn’t invented as of yet. God said to gather animals, not micro-organisms.

How Noah have even known if they were present? It was Noah’s job to collect them and they didn’t have microscopes back then!

That’s what I just said.

How Did Noah deal with the Polar Bears, Walruses, Penguins, Arctic Foxes etc…how could they have survived in a hot boat in the Middle East…how did they get to the Middle east?

**If this occurred as long ago as is surmised (at the end of the last ice age), that would be roughly about 11,500 years ago - plenty of time for animals to adapt to their new environments. Anthropologically, our present human specie has been around for about 150,000 years. **

How did Noah deal with the spread of disease from all of the waste products, vermin and disease carrying insects?

Well, how did farmers deal with the spread of disease from waste products, vermin and disease-carrying insects before anti-biotics?

How could Noah and his family possibly have cleaned up after thousands upon thousands of animals? I worked on a horse farm when I was a young chap, it was hard keeping up with only 8 horses! ( I kid you not)

We don’t know how many animals were on the ark, or if they were only from the region from where Noah lived. In fact, we don’t even know WHERE Noah lived at the time of the flood.

How could Noah have stored meat for the carnivores, without the meat going bad? How could Noah even have collected, via hunting all that necessary meat…even if he had thousands of sheep or cattle, slaughtering all those animals would take weeks! and all in just the right amount of time before the flood, so that it wouldn’t rot before the rain? And all the while, hunting or farming thousands of tonnes of meat, while building the Arc?

**Good question. I am sure some animals were raised to feed other animals. And it’s ‘Ark’. **

How did Noah keep the 500,000 insects away from the meat and spoiling it with fecal matter from the thousands of tonnes of daily waste products?

As I said, we don’t know what insects were present, if they were.

How could Noah have lived to have been 950 years old? The average life expectancy in Canada is something like 83. We have better health care today, than they did 5000 years ago.

Original sin. Remember - humankind was originally immortal and lived in the glory of God the same way Christ did after his Resurrection. Humankind was a combination of matter and an immortal soul, which means we were to live eternally. Once original sin was committed, the human race slowly lost the ability to live in a glorified state until we have small lifespans today.

I’ve read that human cells start breaking down once we hit our 30’s, as the body slowly starts dying naturally…

That’s because we actually start to live and die at the moment of birth - a dichotomy.

That’s just a few logistical problems off the top of my hand.

**I’m sure you’ll think of more when you have time. **

 

[onetimeposter]

How did Noah deal with the 500,000 insects?

The Bible doesn’t mention ‘insects’.

How did Noah deal with microscopic organisms that live only on earth?

The Bible doesn’t mention microscopic organisms which weren’t even known back then, since the microscope wasn’t invented as of yet. God said to gather animals, not micro-organisms.

Yes, the Bible most certainly does mention insects and microscopic organism.

The Bible says clearly that God commanded Noah to:

Genesis 6:13
**
"I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth. ( all life on earth must mean all life on earth, or God would have said, most life on earth)**

Genesis 6:13
I would presume God means fish as well, but I’m not going to go there with you…we are sticking with insects that are on earth and micro-organisms that also are on earth and God said he was going to destroy all life on earth.

Genesis 6:17

I, on my part, am about to bring the flood (waters) on the earth, to destroy everywhere all creatures in which there is the breath of life; everything on earth shall perish.

Ok, so once again, God says that he is going to destroy everywhere all creatures in which there is the breath of life ( I would again think that this would apply to fish, but I’m not going to go there with you).

God says that everything on earth shall perish, if everything on earth wasn’t going to perish ( like the insects and the micro-organisms, then God, who has no need to lie, would say something like, and most things on earth with the breath of life shall perish.

So if everything is going to die, it means that everything is going to die, including the insects and micro-organisms.

Genesis chapter 7:14

(Noah is on the ark)… every kind of creeping thing of the earth ( was on the ark)

Genesis 7:15

Pairs of all creatures in which there was the breath of life entered the ark with Noah.

So we have established that pairs of all creatures in which there is the breath of life got onto the ark, that would have to include insects, as they live on the land, insects breath oxygen, but I think the Bible is actually referring to “life” itself. (I just don’t want you to claim that insects don’t breath, but they do.)
**
Here is the definition of creeping:**

to move slowly with the body close to the ground, as a reptile or an **insect**, or a person on hands and knees.

Genesis 7:22

** Everything on dry land with the faintest breath of life in its nostrils died out.**

Self explanatory…everything was dead on dry land, that would include insects and micro-organisms.

So, I think it is most explicitly clear that Noah would have had to have collected around 500,000 insects and cared for them on the ark.

How could Noah even have possibly have fed 500,000 insects or kept them from escaping, infecting all of the other animals and spreading disease? Not to mention, how Noah could have kept a massive infestation, as insects certainly breed very differently than mammals.

The mosquitoe alone, the female lays something like 100-300 eggs several times during her 2 week life span. There would be a massive mosquitoe infestation, and this is but one of 499,999 other insects on the ark.

If Noah did not have to collect the insects and everything on the earth was destroyed, as scripture clearly spells out.

How then did the 500,000 + insects come to be after God destroyed them all? ( and the micro-organisms)

God created everything and all life on earth in 7 days. God did not create life on earth twice…the scriptures don’t say anything about that.

 

[peary]

Yes, the Bible most certainly does mention insects and microscopic organism.

The Bible says clearly that God commanded Noah to:

Genesis 6:13
**
"I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth.** ( all life on earth must mean all life on earth, or God would have said, most life on earth)

The correct biblical interpretation of that passage is ALL LIVING, AIR-BREATHING CREATURES.

Genesis 6:13
I would presume God means fish as well, but I’m not going to go there with you…we are sticking with insects that are on earth and micro-organisms that also are on earth and God said he was going to destroy all life on earth.

I do not take the story of Noah literally in the sense that he sailed away with fish too. Fish in the bible are not considered air-breathing creatures.

Genesis 6:17

I, on my part, am about to bring the flood (waters) on the earth, to destroy everywhere all creatures in which there is the breath of life; everything on earth shall perish.

See? there ya go, exactly what I said.

Ok, so once again, God says that he is going to destroy everywhere all creatures in which there is the breath of life ( I would again think that this would apply to fish, but I’m not going to go there with you).

Why not? You’re going everywhere else. And again, in biblical times, fish were not (and are not today) considered air-breathing creatures.

God says that everything on earth shall perish, if everything on earth wasn’t going to perish ( like the insects and the micro-organisms, then God, who has no need to lie, would say something like, and most things on earth with the breath of life shall perish.

So if everything is going to die, it means that everything is going to die, including the insects and micro-organisms.

OK. Say for a moment that everything DID die on the earth. You don’t think that God can regenerate His own creation in some way?

Genesis chapter 7:14

(Noah is on the ark)… every kind of creeping thing of the earth ( was on the ark)

Yes, every creeping thing as long as IT BREATHED AIR, in how they understood that in biblical times.

Genesis 7:15

Pairs of all creatures in which there was the breath of life entered the ark with Noah.

Exactly.

So we have established that pairs of all creatures in which there is the breath of life got onto the ark, that would have to include insects, as they live on the land, insects breath oxygen, but I think the Bible is actually referring to “life” itself. (I just don’t want you to claim that insects don’t breath, but they do.)
**
Here is the definition of creeping:**

to move slowly with the body close to the ground, as a reptile or an **insect**, or a person on hands and knees.

Genesis 7:22

** Everything on dry land with the faintest breath of life in its nostrils died out.**

AIR-BREATHING.

Self explanatory…everything was dead on dry land, that would include insects and micro-organisms.

So, I think it is most explicitly clear that Noah would have had to have collected around 500,000 insects and cared for them on the ark.

That depends. The bible never explicitly states that insects were thought of at the time as AIR-BREATHING, only that they were associated with famine and rot.

How could Noah even have possibly have fed 500,000 insects or kept them from escaping, infecting all of the other animals and spreading disease? Not to mention, how Noah could have kept a massive infestation, as insects certainly breed very differently than mammals.

The mosquitoe alone, the female lays something like 100-300 eggs several times during her 2 week life span. There would be a massive mosquitoe infestation, and this is but one of 499,999 other insects on the ark.

If Noah did not have to collect the insects and everything on the earth was destroyed, as scripture clearly spells out.

How then did the 500,000 + insects come to be after God destroyed them all? ( and the micro-organisms)

You certainly are obsessed with insects. Are you sure you don’t suffer from insectophobia??

God created everything and all life on earth in 7 days. God did not create life on earth twice…the scriptures don’t say anything about that.

**Well, obviously, life continued after the flood, and, even if Noah had whatever he had on the Ark, the earth renewed itself with flora and fawna, which is the natural course of things. **

 

[steveandersen]

If this occurred as long ago as is surmised (at the end of the last ice age), that would be roughly about 11,500 years ago - plenty of time for animals to adapt to their new environments. Anthropologically, our present human specie has been around for about 150,000 years.

Whoa! “plenty of time”?
Maybe for some microscopic creatures or even some invertebrates but mammals?

The variations in modern Homo sapiens that have occurred over the last 150,000 are nothing compared to what would be needed for specialist artic animals.
Humans were able to adapt to the artic only through technology (coats, boots, etc) to suggest you could get a penguin from some subtropical species in 11,500 years is hard to shallow.

My response to this “did the Flood really happen” question is:
What lesson is the story trying to teach and would it matter to that lesson whether there was a literal worldwide flood or not?

 

[onetimeposter]

**Well, obviously, life continued after the flood, and, even if Noah had whatever he had on the Ark, the earth renewed itself with flora and fawna, which is the natural course of things. **

How?

Everything had been destroyed?

How could the environment have recovered in adequate time to have become sustenance for the animals.

I don’t agree…after almost a year under water, everything, as God said, would have been destroyed ( dead), therefor there would be nothing left that would be fertile to grow into new flora and fawna, we also know that everything was destroyed, which would have to include bacteria and micro-organisms…which would have to be included in everything.

People expect us to believe Noah’s flood is historical fact and they provide pseudo science to prove that it did take place…but then dismiss problems such as the one listed above.

I ask again, if everything was destroyed, how then could life have continued onwards, if there was nothing left that was fertile upon the earth, as it had all been underwater for nearly a year?

Insects BREATH OXYGEN, THEY ARE AIR BREATHING! This is the word of God, God would have known that his creation of insects breath air.

Obsessed with insects? No, insects do put a crimp in the Noah story.
**
Your suggesting that God just re-created insects and all the vegetation after the flood says that you believe that there are two creation stories. There is but one.**

I’ll remind you again, insects are and have always been air breathing…and besides the point, God clearly said that everything on earth had been destroyed.

So if all the insects were destroyed ( as we know they were) they were either on the ark, all 500,000 or there are two creation stories.

Which is it?

 

[peary]

Whoa! “plenty of time”?
Maybe for some microscopic creatures or even some invertebrates but mammals?

According to concepts of geological catastrophic evolution, species can be forced to adapt rapidly to their new environments. This does not mean all species have the ability to do this, but some do, including microscopic organisms which are the most successful in alteration.

The variations in modern Homo sapiens that have occurred over the last 150,000 are nothing compared to what would be needed for specialist artic animals.

**Yet, over the past 150,000 we have had human adaptation all over the world, and with altered physical characteristics as a form of adapation to immediate environmental factors. **

Humans were able to adapt to the artic only through technology (coats, boots, etc) to suggest you could get a penguin from some subtropical species in 11,500 years is hard to shallow.

But we know that the penguin and its ancestors have developed particular adaptive techniques and physical characteristics to deal with its immediate environment. Although there are about 20 different specie in the penguin phylum, there are a few that have adapted to moderate temperatures (such as those in the Galapagos islands) and even tropical climates, so your example is incomplete. And penguins have been around for over 40 million years anyway.

My response to this “did the Flood really happen” question is:
What lesson is the story trying to teach and would it matter to that lesson whether there was a literal worldwide flood or not?

**That God is the author of history. **

 

[peary]

How?

Everything had been destroyed?

How could the environment have recovered in adequate time to have become sustenance for the animals.

I don’t agree…after almost a year under water, everything, as God said, would have been destroyed ( dead), therefor there would be nothing left that would be fertile to grow into new flora and fawna, we also know that everything was destroyed, which would have to include bacteria and micro-organisms…which would have to be included in everything.

People expect us to believe Noah’s flood is historical fact and they provide pseudo science to prove that it did take place…but then dismiss problems such as the one listed above.

I ask again, if everything was destroyed, how then could life have continued onwards, if there was nothing left that was fertile upon the earth, as it had all been underwater for nearly a year?

**The obvious question you’re not pondering is - what was considered the ‘world’ during biblical times? Certainly not the round orb we are familiar with today. As I mentioned in a previous post, Genesis is not a science book, but presents an ancient cosmology as to the how and why and what constituted the world at that time.

The earth is seen at the time as a flat circular disc, lying between the realm of light above and the abyss of darkness beneath. But how ‘large’ was the earth? How extensive the disc/vault? Since the story of Noah obviously was incorporated into the Hebrew scriptures from Sumerian legends, the ‘world’ in ancient Hebrew thought extended from the Persian Gulf and included the Mediterranean area westward. **

As far as a world flood, there wasn’t one per se, but there were several massive regional floods from where the story could have originated: the Black Sea flood around 7,600 BC; the Caspian and Black Sea floods about 16,000 BC; the lower Tigris-Euphrates Valley, reflooding of the Persian Gulf (12,000 years ago) and probably the source of the Ark story; the Sunda Wetlands flood in Indonesia and the Carpentaria Flood between 7,000-10,000 years ago, etc. What I am getting at here is that, after the last Ice Age, tremendous catastrophic floods occurred with the melting of ice in the northern hemisphere. Most tribal accounts (including native-American traditions) have a solid basis upon which to rest their flood stories.

 

[onetimeposter]

**The obvious question you’re not pondering is - what was considered the ‘world’ during biblical times? Certainly not the round orb we are familiar with today. As I mentioned in a previous post, Genesis is not a science book, but presents an ancient cosmology as to the how and why and what constituted the world at that time.

The earth is seen at the time as a flat circular disc, lying between the realm of light above and the abyss of darkness beneath. But how ‘large’ was the earth? How extensive the disc/vault? Since the story of Noah obviously was incorporated into the Hebrew scriptures from Sumerian legends, the ‘world’ in ancient Hebrew thought extended from the Persian Gulf and included the Mediterranean area westward. **

As far as a world flood, there wasn’t one per se, but there were several massive regional floods from where the story could have originated: the Black Sea flood around 7,600 BC; the Caspian and Black Sea floods about 16,000 BC; the lower Tigris-Euphrates Valley, reflooding of the Persian Gulf (12,000 years ago) and probably the source of the Ark story; the Sunda Wetlands flood in Indonesia and the Carpentaria Flood between 7,000-10,000 years ago, etc. What I am getting at here is that, after the last Ice Age, tremendous catastrophic floods occurred with the melting of ice in the northern hemisphere. Most tribal accounts (including native-American traditions) have a solid basis upon which to rest their flood stories.

Then we have no arguement. We both agree that there wasn’t a world wide flood and that although there may have been some kind of flood, the Story of Noah is not to be taken literally.

I had thought you were suggesting that the entire earth actually was flooded and every single oxygen breathing organism had been destroyed that was not on the ark…

 

[tnystrom]

This is just a poll. No debate here. I’m simply interested in the statistics of who believes it is real and who thinks it was just a story.

By Christian i mean all people that follow the teachings of Jesus. I’m obviously not including Islam in this even though they acknowledge Jesus.

But i would be interested for Jewish and Islamic people to post their religion and what they voted for. Although being put into the non Christian category.

Quite loaded. What do you mean by real? What do you mean just a story? I believe it was a real, meaningful story of the literary genre myth. Myth does not mean unreal or meaningless. It is simply the literary framework the how the story is put together. The sacred Scriptures utilized human styles/genres to communicate meaning in the most communicative manner.
You assume something MUST be literally true to have meaning. This does not happen in real life; why must it happen in the Scriptures?

 

[tnystrom]

Yes, the Bible most certainly does mention insects and microscopic organism.

The Bible says clearly that God commanded Noah to:

Genesis 6:13
**
"I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth.** ( all life on earth must mean all life on earth, or God would have said, most life on earth)

Genesis 6:13
I would presume God means fish as well, but I’m not going to go there with you…we are sticking with insects that are on earth and micro-organisms that also are on earth and God said he was going to destroy all life on earth.

Genesis 6:17

I, on my part, am about to bring the flood (waters) on the earth, to destroy everywhere all creatures in which there is the breath of life; everything on earth shall perish.

Ok, so once again, God says that he is going to destroy everywhere all creatures in which there is the breath of life ( I would again think that this would apply to fish, but I’m not going to go there with you).

God says that everything on earth shall perish, if everything on earth wasn’t going to perish ( like the insects and the micro-organisms, then God, who has no need to lie, would say something like, and most things on earth with the breath of life shall perish.

So if everything is going to die, it means that everything is going to die, including the insects and micro-organisms.

Genesis chapter 7:14

(Noah is on the ark)… every kind of creeping thing of the earth ( was on the ark)

Genesis 7:15

Pairs of all creatures in which there was the breath of life entered the ark with Noah.

So we have established that pairs of all creatures in which there is the breath of life got onto the ark, that would have to include insects, as they live on the land, insects breath oxygen, but I think the Bible is actually referring to “life” itself. (I just don’t want you to claim that insects don’t breath, but they do.)
**
Here is the definition of creeping:**

to move slowly with the body close to the ground, as a reptile or an **insect**, or a person on hands and knees.

Genesis 7:22

** Everything on dry land with the faintest breath of life in its nostrils died out.**

Self explanatory…everything was dead on dry land, that would include insects and micro-organisms.

So, I think it is most explicitly clear that Noah would have had to have collected around 500,000 insects and cared for them on the ark.

How could Noah even have possibly have fed 500,000 insects or kept them from escaping, infecting all of the other animals and spreading disease? Not to mention, how Noah could have kept a massive infestation, as insects certainly breed very differently than mammals.

The mosquitoe alone, the female lays something like 100-300 eggs several times during her 2 week life span. There would be a massive mosquitoe infestation, and this is but one of 499,999 other insects on the ark.

If Noah did not have to collect the insects and everything on the earth was destroyed, as scripture clearly spells out.

How then did the 500,000 + insects come to be after God destroyed them all? ( and the micro-organisms)

God created everything and all life on earth in 7 days. God did not create life on earth twice…the scriptures don’t say anything about that.

Forgot one thing before we continue pontificating about sacred Scripture, we need to ask what does the Holy Church have to say? We sound like Protestants. We must look at Sacred Scripture AND Holy Tradition.

 

[peary]

Then we have no arguement. We both agree that there wasn’t a world wide flood and that although there may have been some kind of flood, the Story of Noah is not to be taken literally.

**I never said that the story of Noah was not based on an actual event. For all we know, there were many Noahs throughout the world who basically responded to the floods in much the same way - they either built or bought some type of sailing vessels and put all of their livestock on them.

And there is significant archaeological proof that there was an advanced and possibly worldwide civilizations many thousands of years ago predating the oldest of our own.

The significance of the Noah story is that God is the author of life and of creation, that He sends warnings to us through His prophets and it is up to us to respond. It is God Who regenerates the earth and heals.**

 

[onetimeposter]

It is God Who regenerates the earth and heals.

I think its up to us to in regards to the present environmental disaster that we’ve created.

 

[tnystrom]

I think its up to us to in regards to the present environmental disaster that we’ve created.

What environmental disaster that we’ve created? Global warming? It is not anthropogenic. It is a natural cycle.

 

[onetimeposter]

What environmental disaster that we’ve created? Global warming? It is not anthropogenic. It is a natural cycle.

Deforestation, extinctions, pollution, contamination of our water, nuclear disasters like Chernobyl, toxic waste, urban sprawl.

We are slowly destroying this planet in many other ways …who said anything about global warming?