Story of Noah: Who believes it to be real?

[Brian_Millar]

On Cheries behalf here, she likely meant within the proper context such as I do myself as well. In cases where the bible states, this is what exactly happens, yes, it’s true, fact and it happened, a real event. We should not only learn from the lesson, we should take it into context as to what unfolds later in his word, for it holds relavence and bearing to all of the other stories. Christ liked to use parables, clearly they were not meant as specific accounts, but more along the lines of something to teach us, that to use it as a true event, we lose the message.

Cherie, are we in agreement on this matter?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Chapter and verse please, where Peter uses the word history in reference to Noah’s Ark.

2 Peter3:5-7

Where, in the Bible, does all of the other historical events call themselves historical events. It refers to them as things that happened, not just a nice moral story. If Noah and the Ark and the Flood was just a nice moral story, it would not be referenced by St. Peter as something that fact. Read the versus.

May the Truth convict you of I ts reality.
Cherie

 

[Abbadon]

Cherie, on Abaddon’s behalf, he said the same thing as I, be it in a more amusing manner. I honestly don’t think he meant the term magic, as in the manner deviant natured human beings practice it with. Having been exposed to those real types of elements in the past, there is a good reason God forbids us from going that route, ie. magic, witchcraft, psycics, etc., and a big part of it is because those that practice it are messing with the order of things as he has set forth, kind of like these people are throwing wrenches into his works. There are more reasons he’s against it of course, that I don’t need to get into here for it’s too off topic.

Abaddon, am I correct with my perception on your intentions here?

I meant magic as a joke. Magic is the unexplained, when it becomes explained is either an illusion or science. Magic is no real explanaation to anything.

It’s asking how does lighting come about? THOR

How was the universe created? God did
How? MAGIC

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

The thing is you don’t.

Are you telling me that 100% of what the bible says is 100% true and we should follow it 100%?

There are some things that, when Jesus came to fullfill the Law of the Old Testament, they were not held as stringently…such as, no pork, “an eye for any eye”, the need for circumcision.

Other than those things, ABSOLUTELY. I believe every word of the Bible to be the Word of God. He didn’t lightly choose to have it written down so that we would have it through out all time. He did it so that we would always know His will, and His truths.

100 percent, 100% of the time!
I don’t believe He gave anything to us that was/is/always will be totally important. I don’t claim to understand His meaning all of the time…that is why He created His Holy Roman Apostolic Church. Because He works through His Church to explain Himself to us, His people.

The TRUTH is Awesome! It sets us free! Once I was lost, but now I am found! Alleluia!
One day, every knee shall bow, and every tongue proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord. But oh, what treasure awaits those who gladly choose to seek and follow His Truth now.

May Christ Jesus, Who is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life bless you with a hunger and thirst for Himself.
Cherie

 

[Abbadon]

What does that have to do with my question? God doesn’t have to work in the realm of human understanding!
Understand!!! HE IS GOD, THE ONLY GOD !!!

No he is the god YOU beleive in 2/3 of the world beleive in something else…

It had to do with understanding, basic understanding of the discoveries we’ve made and how our world works would lead you to wonder such things, and you would understand how people question the bible.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

It was prophesied long before Jesus walked on earth as a Man, that He would teach using parables. This is one of the ways that His chosen people would be able to recognize Him. It was one of the signs of Him being the Messiah.

And He told the people that they were parables. There wasn’t a question of the parables being historical, biblical facts.

God bless you with His Truth

Cherie

 

[Abbadon]

When are you going to understand the real point here. You all are doing your best to discredit God and what He chooses for His own purposes to do with His creation. I am a true Catholic Christian. The Bible was written, and oral tradition handed down from Creation to July 12, 2008. I believe the Word of God. Why do you, with all of your human arrogance and pride, believe that God didn’t or couldn’t have done something just because He didn’t check with you to make sure that you would understand it all? That is indeed how you all sound, and what you are indeed saying…hopefully without trying to rebell against Him…but just the same, that is what you are doing.
And no offense, Abaddon, but you don’t seem to be Catholic or Christian…am I wrong? So why would anyone think that you would believe the Truth, unless you are seeking the Truth through Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? I am not trying to offend, just speaking the truth.
I hope you do come to seek THE Way, THE Truth and THE Life, which will only be found in Jesus Christ.
Cherie

I was Catholic, the thing is you can beleive whatever you want to, I beleive you have the right to that. If you beleive in faeries be my guest, mirror deamons go for it…

But it greatly disturbs me when people try and alter the hundreds of years of work we have done in understanding the way our world works.

See Cherie you may critisize science and hte wondderfull achievements it has given, but you use them everyday. The computer the internet, the fridge. These things come about not from trusting hte bible when it says the ratio of a circle is 3:1 which is bad even to the standard of the day considering the egyptians were working out pi to 4 decimal places.

And i notice you didn’t remark on the Galileo trail.

The thing is the bible is wrong many times, from it’s guidelines to the treatment of pow’s to its mythical stories of world gourging floods and seven day creations.

And peary, of course there was a small islolated flood, meterological and archeological evidence backs that up, but NOT a world wide flood, becuase you’d have to be mentally defecient to beleive in the litteral truth of the noah story…

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

No he is the god YOU beleive in 2/3 of the world beleive in something else…

It had to do with understanding, basic understanding of the discoveries we’ve made and how our world works would lead you to wonder such things, and you would understand how people question the bible.

Whether 2/3 of the world believe in Jesus as God is totally irrelevant!!! He is God! And one day everyone who has ever lived, is alive now, or will be alive in the future will bend their knee before Him and every tongue confess that He, Jesus Christ is Lord!!!

That comes from the Bible, and I believe that, too.

I do not see, nor do I understand anyone having to question the Bible as you all have been doing it…with the intent to discredit it. Faith is believing in things when common sense (science) cannot explain it.

Christ said to Thomas, “You believed because you have seen. Blessed are those who will believe without having seen.”

The faith that we have in Christ Jesus makes Him happy…or else why would we be blessed?

Cherie

 

[Brian_Millar]

I meant magic as a joke. Magic is the unexplained, when it becomes explained is either an illusion or science. Magic is no real explanaation to anything.

It’s asking how does lighting come about? THOR

How was the universe created? God did
How? MAGIC

We are on agreement on this matter then from your response, good!

Cherie, check your PM box I sent you a message!

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I was Catholic, the thing is you can beleive whatever you want to, I beleive you have the right to that. If you beleive in faeries be my guest, mirror deamons go for it…

But it greatly disturbs me when people try and alter the hundreds of years of work we have done in understanding the way our world works.

See Cherie you may critisize science and hte wondderfull achievements it has given, but you use them everyday. The computer the internet, the fridge. These things come about not from trusting hte bible when it says the ratio of a circle is 3:1 which is bad even to the standard of the day considering the egyptians were working out pi to 4 decimal places.

And i notice you didn’t remark on the Galileo trail.

The thing is the bible is wrong many times, from it’s guidelines to the treatment of pow’s to its mythical stories of world gourging floods and seven day creations.

And peary, of course there was a small islolated flood, meterological and archeological evidence backs that up, but NOT a world wide flood, becuase you’d have to be mentally defecient to beleive in the litteral truth of the noah story…

Where exactly does it say that the ratio of a circle is 3:1. I do not accept anything that is against what the Bible teaches. People try to make science into a god. That is idolotry. Galileo was persecuted by people in the Church…not by anything in the Bible. It was because he had gone against something which had been accepted by humanity.
And there is NOTHING in the Bible which is wrong. There are a number of things in the Bible which Jesus, with His forgiveness and Mercy changed. Like the eye for an eye thing. What people in today’s world fail to understand is this: Jesus changed those things in man…for man. Today, people are trying to change Christ for what man thinks is good for man. People, you can’t change Christ! He is God! And even if we do not understand Him or His creation or His miracles, it doesn’t mean that they are wrong, or not to be believed. That is fallacy. And those who reject it are wrong.
And I am not called to not say things because it might make someone feel bad. The truth is the truth whether I say it, or anyone believes it or not. That is the wonderful thing about Absolute Truths.
And I am NOT against science. Science is a gift from God…though people who believe in science rather than God’s word are wrong! But without science, we wouldn’t have medicine. And medicine saves lives. But when we use science and medicine to try to justify murder or immoral behavior…it is wrong. That is just plain truth. It is simple. We don’t have to know everything that God knows. We just have to accept that He is God, we are humans and not God, and believe in His words.

I hope you come to that.
Cherie

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by **Abbadon **
.

And peary, of course there was a small islolated flood, meterological and archeological evidence backs that up, but NOT a world wide flood, becuase you’d have to be mentally defecient to beleive in the litteral truth of the noah story…

**Did you even bother to read my post on the huge deluges that occurred *all over the world *as the last ice age ended?? Granted, as a whole these cannot be considered a worldwide event wiping out all living things, but they were a worldwide event which occurred the space of 8,000 years and were significant events which altered the earth in many places.

I don’t consider myself to be “mentally deficient” because I believe that the Noah story originated from either the Persian Gulf Refill Flood (c.12,000 BC) or even the Tigris-Euphrates Flood about 6000 years later, which may be the probable origin of the Noah story. But the story was probably based on an account of an actual flood in that region. It was recorded by the Sumerians. In fact, all around the globe you find flood stories in civilizations and tribes above the equator about major flood catastrophes.

And I don’t consider myself “mentally deficient” to believe that the recording of this story in the Bible was placed there for posterity to bring to the awareness of the Chosen People that: God chose Noah to be a prophet; that God gave Noah a message about a coming devastating event and to preach it among his people; that Noah gathered as many animals as he could on a large vessel in an attempt to save whatever he had; that God is the author of creation and history and all that this entails.**

 

[Abbadon]

There are some things that, when Jesus came to fullfill the Law of the Old Testament, they were not held as stringently…such as, no pork, “an eye for any eye”, the need for circumcision.

Other than those things, ABSOLUTELY. I believe every word of the Bible to be the Word of God. He didn’t lightly choose to have it written down so that we would have it through out all time. He did it so that we would always know His will, and His truths.

100 percent, 100% of the time!
I don’t believe He gave anything to us that was/is/always will be totally important. I don’t claim to understand His meaning all of the time…that is why He created His Holy Roman Apostolic Church. Because He works through His Church to explain Himself to us, His people.

The TRUTH is Awesome! It sets us free! Once I was lost, but now I am found! Alleluia!
One day, every knee shall bow, and every tongue proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord. But oh, what treasure awaits those who gladly choose to seek and follow His Truth now.

May Christ Jesus, Who is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life bless you with a hunger and thirst for Himself.
Cherie

You say in the first paragraph that Jesus came and took some of the laws less stringently, despite him saying in Matthew

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Which means you ignore a great deal of the bible it’s self.You say you follow it 100% and believe it 100% but you really don’t your first line reveals that you don’t.

And i hardly think you would approve of stoning to death disobedient children as ordered in the bible.

Also I do believe that the church now agrees that the earth is not the center of the universe and that the creation myth is just a story, after much scientific advancement and progress.

So really your “truth” changes with time, with understanding and with the change of morality that occurs in human society.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

2 Peter3:5-7

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come (to) scoff, living according to their own desires
4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? From the time when our ancestors fell asleep, everything has remained as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5 They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God;
6 through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water.
7 The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless.

St. Peter is using the message of the Noah’s Ark story to talk about the end times. I don’t see where he uses the word “history”. This is exactly why God put the Noah’s Ark story in the bible, to teach us the messages that St. Peter is expounding on.

Do you also take it literally that the earth is going to be burned by fire in the end time? Fire doesn’t destroy rock and concrete, it’s going to take more than fire. It’s allegory.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

St. Peter is using the message of the Noah’s Ark story to talk about the end times. I don’t see where he uses the word “history”. This is exactly why God put the Noah’s Ark story in the bible, to teach us the messages that St. Peter is expounding on.

Do you also take it literally that the earth is going to be burned by fire in the end time? Fire doesn’t destroy rock and concrete, it’s going to take more than fire. It’s allegory.

There you go trying to fit God into the box called “what humans understand scientifically”.
The fire of God will destroy any and everything that He wants it to. And St. Peter used it to warn the people that just as God destroyed the world by means of the deluge in Noah’s time, so also He will destroy it by fire.

Believe it or not, as you see fit. If the Bible is not accurate, but you live your life acting as though it is, you lose nothing. If the Bible is accurate, but you live your life denying it, you lose everything.

The Bible doesn’t say it uses allegory to explain things. It is certainly my prerogative to believe in every word of the Bible…as surely as it is your God given right to deny it.

May Christ Jesus show you His Truth.
Cherie

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

You say in the first paragraph that Jesus came and took some of the laws less stringently, despite him saying in Matthew

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

.I refer you to my comments on post #430.
And you need to understand all that the law taught, and everything that was prophesied about Jesus, and all that Jesus said. And just for the record, He was referring to God’s laws, not man’s laws

Which means you ignore a great deal of the bible it’s self.You say you follow it 100% and believe it 100% but you really don’t your first line reveals that you don’t.

And i hardly think you would approve of stoning to death disobedient children as ordered in the bible.

Also I do believe that the church now agrees that the earth is not the center of the universe and that the creation myth is just a story, after much scientific advancement and progress.

So really your “truth” changes with time, with understanding and with the change of morality that occurs in human society.

I refer you to my comments on post #430.
And you need to understand all that the law taught, and everything that was prophesied about Jesus, and all that Jesus said. And just for the record, He was referring to God’s laws, not man’s laws.
And some opinions within the Church change, but none of the Truths. You should understand what the Church refers to as a “Truth”.
The changes in morality in todays society do absolutely NOTHING to change God’s Laws. God’s Laws stay the same. Today’s society will certainly reap what it has sown. God’s laws concerning sin and immorality have never changed. That is a fallacy promoted by men who want to feel secure and justified in acting in sinful and immoral ways. Hopefully you will trust that Jesus sees it for what it is and act accordingly. Jesus spoke of those who reject His truths will be punished. I hope you don’t think that those words too were just “stories told to teach a moral lesson.” If so, it just proves my point that when a person rejects anything in the Bible, it leaves everything in the Bible to the risk of being rejected. There will be punishment for those who reject His truth…no matter what society says.
I pray to You, Lord Jesus, that I will always trust all of Your words, and teach them to all whom You have entrusted to my care. Amen.

Cherie

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Believe it or not, as you see fit. If the Bible is not accurate, but you live your life acting as though it is, you lose nothing. If the Bible is accurate, but you live your life denying it, you lose everything.

If you lead people away from the faith with your un-Catholic interpretation of scripture, you will indeed have to answer for that to God. Stop presenting your own ideas as Catholic teaching. They are not Catholic teaching.

 

[tnystrom]

Just a couple things. The idea of literary genres come from the study of literature. The stories in the Gospels tend to be narratives, much of Paul is didactic (teaching), and is in the form/genre of epistle. Revelation is apocalyptic, Acts narrative with didactic sections. Literary genre is not code for disbelieving Scripture and therefore God. It is simply a manner to understand the meaning of Scripture. The context, genre, and historical setting is what gives us the meaning.
To say something is allegory or figure of speech does not negate its meaning, nor does it mean the meaning is less real. If my husband says, “it’s raining cats and dogs outside!” I don’t say, “O, he is speaking allegorically, therefore it is not true.” I know that it is raining really hard out, and the form/genre he used to illustrate that fact was figure of speech.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Originally Posted by vrlobo88

He or she associates natural disaster with punishment (due to ignorance). We know today that God does not punish us with natural disasters. end quote

According to all of the Marian apparitions, God does EXACTLY that. And what do you call the storms and earthquakes that occurred at the death of Jesus, Who is God? Those too were natural disasters.
Man, what Faith do you belong to? Most natural disasters are God’s way of getting our attention. Of proving to us that we need to turn back to Him, and away from our sinful ways. It is His love for us, His mercy, to call us back to Him.
Please turn to Him.
Cherie

If natural disasters are punishments from God, His aim’s off, or He has serious visual problems They could equally well be punishments from Zeus, to show his anger at no longer being worshipped; solution - forget about the god Jehovah (who never does anything for his worshippers anyway) & return to the god Zeus. Why not ? I know I’d be miffed if I were a god worshipped for 2000 years, & my worshippers deserted me for some Oriental johnny-come-lately & stayed with him for 1600 years.​

IOW, disasters happen because the old gods have been deserted. If your argument is developed far enough, it becomes an argument against Christianity - which you probably don’t intend. But that’s the logic inherent in it.

As for the apparitions: the BVM needs a course in logic, as well as in medicine & geology, ***if ***she really thinks that. The BVM of those apparitions has a narrow & poverty-stricken understanding of God, which is more than enough to show they are not authentic, or not fully so. Mere earthlings have more insight; therefore, the real BVM would understand God far better than anyone on earth possibly could, & would therefore not speak as the appearing BVM does.

Jesus must have been a very wicked man, to be crucified - if suffering is a punishment from God, that is where the logic of this absurd argument leads. His Life is a standing denial of such over-simple thinking. You should read “Candide”, in which Voltaire put a few questions about the idea that natural disasters are punishments from God - he was responding to the Lisbon earthquake of 1755, which killed 40,000 people. The Tokyo earthquake of 1923 wasn’t caused by any Divine intention to punish the people of Tokyo, but by the fact that the city is built on a geological fault-line, & is therefore liable to seismic upsets.

How is killing 40,000 people (in 1755), & 100,000 (in 1923) “love” ? If that’s love, the less there is of it, the better. To call natural disasters punishments from God, is to cheapen human suffering & misery, as well as to make God into a egotistic bully. And, that idea falsifies the revelation of God in Christ completely.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

There are some things that, when Jesus came to fullfill the Law of the Old Testament, they were not held as stringently…such as, no pork, “an eye for any eye”, the need for circumcision.

Other than those things, ABSOLUTELY. I believe every word of the Bible to be the Word of God. He didn’t lightly choose to have it written down so that we would have it through out all time. He did it so that we would always know His will, and His truths.

Let’s get this straight - you favour:​

• stoning disobedient sons
• killing witches
• genocide
• polygamy
  & you believe that:
• the earth has four corners
• God will kill a sea-serpent or dragon
• hills skipped
• the Jordan fled
• "The LORD roars from Zion"
• Jesus is a lamb
• a seven-headed ten-crowned red dragon falls from the sky
  It’s all in the Bible - all of it. You say you believe it
• “100 percent, 100% of the time!”
  **To be consistent, it is just not possible to believe everything is true as fact. If the Psalms can be taken to speak metaphorically, & not historically - then maybe Genesis 6-8 can be true, without being true as history. Historical truth is only one kind of truth - moral truth & metaphysical truth are not historical truth, but they are both very important. And there are others. **

100 percent, 100% of the time!
I don’t believe He gave anything to us that was/is/always will be totally important. I don’t claim to understand His meaning all of the time…that is why He created His Holy Roman Apostolic Church. Because He works through His Church to explain Himself to us, His people.

The TRUTH is Awesome! It sets us free! Once I was lost, but now I am found! Alleluia!
One day, every knee shall bow, and every tongue proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord. But oh, what treasure awaits those who gladly choose to seek and follow His Truth now.

May Christ Jesus, Who is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life bless you with a hunger and thirst for Himself.
Cherie

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

There you go trying to fit God into the box called “what humans understand scientifically”.
The fire of God will destroy any and everything that He wants it to. And St. Peter used it to warn the people that just as God destroyed the world by means of the deluge in Noah’s time, so also He will destroy it by fire.

If fire can’t burn it, then it can’t. Fire can burn some things, & not others. If it is not fire, at all, then it is misleading to call it fire, because people have some idea of what fire is & can do, as well as of what it isn’t, & can’t. To call something fire when one means something completely different is misleading. If God’s fire is so completely unlike anything man understands by the word, it might as well be called whisky, or carbohydrate. Words are used in the Bible to communicate meaning - not to mislead.​

This has serious implications: if God, by “good”, meant what we would call “evil”, our moral life in Christ would be destroyed. No - if words are used in the Bible, it is because they reflect, however approximately or incompletely, what God intends. The only words available are human words, so God expresses His meaning in those words. So the word “fire” in this passage means “fire” - it will not mean “whisky”. And when good is commanded in the Bible, God commands something to which the word does at least approximate, somewhat as a child’s drawing of a circle approximates to an accurate picture of a circle; our notion of what is good is not unrecognisably from what God means.

When God became a man, He was recognisably so - which makes it most probable that what He means by good is recognisably like what we understand by the word. If words as used by God or men had unbridgeably different meanings, revelation would be impossible.

Believe it or not, as you see fit. If the Bible is not accurate, but you live your life acting as though it is, you lose nothing. If the Bible is accurate, but you live your life denying it, you lose everything.

The Bible doesn’t say it uses allegory to explain things.

See Galatians 4 ​

It is certainly my prerogative to believe in every word of the Bible…as surely as it is your God given right to deny it.

May Christ Jesus show you His Truth.
Cherie