Story of Noah: Who believes it to be real?

[Brian_Millar]

Let’s put this on the table as something to go “temporarily” off topic with. All life was destroyed in the flood, they were there before and after… Putting it together, they were not dependant of this earth to survive. No ark, no need, yet were there before and after, why would the bible add those words if for any other reason.

 

[peary]

Let’s put this on the table as something to go “temporarily” off topic with. All life was destroyed in the flood, they were there before and after… Putting it together, they were not dependant of this earth to survive. No ark, no need, yet were there before and after, why would the bible add those words if for any other reason.

**Because it wasn’t a worldwide flood!! **

 

[Philipp]

I am in agreement we should test.

Again, the issue is God can create the universe, but He cannot get all the creatures in the Ark. Don’t you see the issue?

So could He or couldn’t He?

Excellent point Buffalo. Everyone agrees God can creat Ex Nihilo but “man” sets limits as to what he does thereafter. No world deluge, no pre-flood ecological differences to what we see now [uniformitarianism rules science of origins], no ark needed.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

The evidence for such a flood is also overwhelming in that the massive numbers of less mobile creatures are at the bottom of the sedimetary geologic column and the more mobile ones near the top of the column [man, including giants and dinosaurs].

There were also survivers of Noah’s flood including the participants on this thread and dinosaurs as depicted in the famous Nile and Sapphori Israel mosaics, Jewish and Buddhist temples, Peruvian Ica Stones, Mexican clay figurines, the Grand Canyon, USA and other locations.

Okay, Phillip. Please explain the above statement in the 2nd paragraph. Are you saying that these things depicted drawings or writings talking about dinosaurs? Why are those things not talked of more? Is it just because people…evolutionists…can’t abide the threat of the truth? or is there more to it?
I am sorry if I seem to be asking the same questions. Also, could you answer my questions about the Nephalim that were posted a couple of threads ago? I appreciate the explanation from Peary, but he doesn’t believe that it happened as the Bible explained it…unless I am mistaken.

 

[peary]

Philipp;3944131:

Also, could you answer my questions about the Nephalim that were posted a couple of threads ago? I appreciate the explanation from Peary, but he doesn’t believe that it happened as the Bible explained it…unless I am mistaken.

Oy vay…again, there is nothing in the earth’s geology that depicts a worldwide flood which wiped out every living thing, but there is evidence of massive floods and deluges immediately following the end of the last Ice Age throughout the northern hemisphere.
All of this took place between 12,000-to-6000 B.C.

Also, please don’t fail to understand what the ancient writers understood by the ‘world’ back then; it certainly wasn’t anything like we know today. What is regional to us today was their whole world back then.

There is a strong probability that the Nephilim were exactly what the Bible says they were: a race of ‘giants’. Todays’ descendants include the Watusi. Ethiopian writings tell us where they lived prior to their being pushed southward into Africa.

Also, angels and demons cannot come down to earth and fornicate with human beings. That is not possible, being the type of creation they are.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Jesus N Cherie;3946655:

Oy vay…again, there is nothing in the earth’s geology that depicts a worldwide flood which wiped out every living thing, but there is

evidence of massive floods and deluges immediately following the end of the last Ice Age throughout the northern hemisphere.
All of this took place between 12,000-to-6000 B.C.

Also, please don’t fail to understand what the ancient writers understood by the ‘world’ back then; it certainly wasn’t anything like we know today. What is regional to us today was their whole world back then.

There is a strong probability that the Nephilim were exactly what the Bible says they were: a race of ‘giants’. Todays’ descendants include the Watusi. Ethiopian writings tell us where they lived prior to their being pushed southward into Africa.

Also, angels and demons cannot come down to earth and fornicate with human beings. That is not possible, being the type of creation they are.

Peary, please don’t be offended by my asking Phillip to address the same questions as yourself. Truly, I don’t mean to offend.

 

[peary]

peary;3946807:

Peary, please don’t be offended by my asking Phillip to address the same questions as yourself. Truly, I don’t mean to offend.

**No offsense. I was trying to clarify what I had posted before. Sorry if it sounded a bit harsh. **

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Oy vay…again, there is nothing in the earth’s geology that depicts a worldwide flood which wiped out every living thing, but there is evidence of massive floods and deluges immediately following the end of the last Ice Age throughout the northern hemisphere.
All of this took place between 12,000-to-6000 B.C.

Also, please don’t fail to understand what the ancient writers understood by the ‘world’ back then; it certainly wasn’t anything like we know today. What is regional to us today was their whole world back then.

Pre - cisely. Here’s hoping the OP takes that in.​

Which is why it makes no sense to insist on a global flood: the world we know is vastly larger, so questions such as how Noah looked after wombats, & timber-wolves & tarantulas don’t arise: because that sort of question applies to the world known to us, not to the world known to the composer of Gen. 6-8.

As for accusations of not believing the Bible, or not believing God, & so forth: that position is not evidence of not disbelieving in what the passage says: it’s making allowances for the fact (& it is one, awkward as that may be) that we cannot be expected to read the passage as though Siberia, New Zealand, Scotland & Mexico did not exist - the author of the text didn’t take account of the existence of yaks, because he (she ?) did not have any reason to think there were any. Unlike us. Biblical interpretation will not be honest if it ignores facts about the world God has made.

A computer in twelfth-century England would not have been welcomed as a great technological advance - that sort of thought was foreign to the period. At best, such an object would have been an oddity - & would probably not have been welcomed. So too, people in the world that Genesis comes from thought the world was far smaller than it is, so to credit the composer of the passage with something resembling modern ideas of geography would also have been an oddity. The Israelites were very like their neighbours in many ways, & there’s no reason to credit them with a conception of the earth 4,000 years in advance of the knowledge available to the Babylonians. The inspiration of the Bible does not require it, & the analogy of the Incarnation of the Word among men is against it.

BTW - apologies to the very first poster: this has turned into a debate thread.

**There is a strong probability that the Nephilim were exactly what the Bible says they were: a race of ‘giants’. Todays’ descendants include the Watusi. Ethiopian writings tell us where they lived prior to their being pushed southward into Africa. **

Also, angels and demons cannot come down to earth and fornicate with human beings. That is not possible, being the type of creation they are.

That’s debatable - but I won’t wreck this thread by arguing the point ​

 

[Philipp]

Philipp;3944131:

The evidence for such a flood is also overwhelming in that the massive numbers of less mobile creatures are at the bottom of the sedimetary geologic column and the more mobile ones near the top of the column [man, including giants and dinosaurs].

There were also survivers of Noah’s flood including the participants on this thread and dinosaurs as depicted in the famous Nile and Sapphori Israel mosaics, Jewish and Buddhist temples, Peruvian Ica Stones, Mexican clay figurines, the Grand Canyon, USA and other locations.

Okay, Phillip. Please explain the above statement in the 2nd paragraph. Are you saying that these things depicted drawings or writings talking about dinosaurs? Why are those things not talked of more? Is it just because people…evolutionists…can’t abide the threat of the truth? or is there more to it?
I am sorry if I seem to be asking the same questions. Also, could you answer my questions about the Nephalim that were posted a couple of threads ago? I appreciate the explanation from Peary, but he doesn’t believe that it happened as the Bible explained it…unless I am mistaken.

That’s easy. Just a short answer as I must get to Sunday Mass. Please search for the name Dennis Swift who has spent 20 years studying the dinosaur depictions world-wide. You can also order his book called “The Secret of the Ica Stones and the Nasca Lines”. He totally refutes Van Denkens and his book that sold millions and deceived many, entitled “Chariots of the Gods”. There is another book entitled, “Crash goes the Chariots” by an Australian archaeologist named Dr. Clifford A. Wilson. At one time I tended to believe Von Denken’s interpretation of the Nasca Lines but the above two books straightened out my thinking. Swift hired the same pilot who flew Van Decken (or however it’s spelled] and they scoured all the valleys of this region and he discovered huge depictions of diplodocus type dinosaurs just as he observed other hugh animal depictions such as a whale and other “riddles in the sand.”

Why aren’t these depictions talked about more??? That’s a no-brainer: Evolutionists don’t want the simple fact that dinosaurs and man coexisted only 100’s and 1000’s of years ago to be well known. You’ll never see technical papers on the subject as you would destroy the sacred cow of academia, Darwinism. When the world realizes that our ancestors saw and then recorded with depictions their observations of live dinosaurs (and other live animals of the time, evolution would be rightly put into the same category as the mythical flat earth society. Add to that C-14 dating of their bones and that of other fossils in the sedimentary record and fossil human footprints including giants their various hypotheses would be in tatters.

St. Augustine speaks of the Nephilim but he doesn’t say much more than that they were giants. I think Peary and I easily agree there. I can do some more speculations on that subject but it would be just that and I must shove off for Mass. Pacem:thumbsup:

 

[lanceg]

There is absolutely no evidence of a global flood. I understand it’s possible for such a magnificent event to happen – anything is possible under God’s wing. But don’t you think there would be titanic traces for a titanic flood? Yet nothing is found.

The story makes more sense if it’s seen from a didactic point of view.

I believe it is based on a real event, some kind of catastrophic flood that deeply impressed the memories of people in the region. But perhaps not a universal flood that covered the entire earth. The Holy Spirit inspired the sacred writer to recount the story. The Holy Spirit reveals to us religious truth in this recollection. But I do not believe a Christian has to take the story completely literally.

 

[warriorofpeace]

then i guess you all dont know the highest mountain was revealed that the ark was their thats hearsay proof going on for alot of years WHAT ARE YOU ALL TALKING ABOUT

 

[Brian_Millar]

then i guess you all dont know the highest mountain was revealed that the ark was their thats hearsay proof going on for alot of years WHAT ARE YOU ALL TALKING ABOUT

I’ve already pointed links to resources for that one earlier, they were ignored. Even with the ark remnents being discovered, it still is not enough proof for these guys.

 

[Philipp]

I believe it is based on a real event, some kind of catastrophic flood that deeply impressed the memories of people in the region. But perhaps not a universal flood that covered the entire earth. The Holy Spirit inspired the sacred writer to recount the story. The Holy Spirit reveals to us religious truth in this recollection. But I do not believe a Christian has to take the story completely literally.

I agree with you that the Story of Noah was based on a real event but more than that I would accept it as a world-wide event as noted in my previous posts. The problem is that the world is not ready for this truth.

For example for 40 years scientists refused to believe the studies of a famous pioneering geologist at the University of Chicago as his research seemed at the time to support the flood of Noah as his hypothesis called for an extremely destructive flood to both sedimentary and magmatic rock strata which he claimed spoke of a 400 foot deep wall of water moving at a 40 to 100miles/hour if my memory serves me right [The Missoula MT floods and The Scablands of the NW USA.]. At least the Chicago geologist was able to get his technical papers printed in technical Journals of his day. Those of us who wish to show our geologic and C-14 evidences for Noah’s flood hypothesis must be satisfied to have their peer reviewed papers printed ONLY in the Creation Science Quarterly and NOT main stream journals like Science, Nature, or the Quaternary Review. Thus NO coverage for further discussion.

Perhaps thoughtful mainstream scientists will someday cease to doubt the pioneering studies of scientists who claim that there is ample geologic and paleontology evidence for a world-wide watery cataclysm well before the now recognized regional ones.

The evidence is indeed overwhelming for that major flood event in that dinosaur, coal, amber and other fossils in these huge amounts of sediments have been radiocarbon dated and yield C-14 ages in the range of 20,000 to 50,000 RC years [for good scientific reasons these dates may be too old]. Even diamonds that are allegedly over a billion years in age that erupt from the bowels of the earth give C-14 dates of 58,000 to 80,000 years old [which support creation ex nihilo] as I have repeatedly pointed out and documented with peer reviewed papers. The very sensitive Accelerated Mass Spectrometer unit was used to obtain these dates with a theoretical upper limit around 100,000 RC years.

The evidence for such a flood is also evidenced in that the massive numbers of less mobile creatures are at the bottom of the sedimentary geologic column and the more mobile ones near the top of the column [man, including giant men and dinosaurs.]

The human population equation also supports the repopulation of the earth through the eight survivors over a period of 4500 or so years yielding 6.5 billion people as are now on earth. This means that the Ark would have included the participants on this thread all of whom are descendants of Noah and his three sons and their wives. Dinosaurs as small critters on the Ark and as depicted in the famous Nile River and Sapphori Israel mosaics, Jewish and Buddhist temples, Peruvian Ica Stones, Mexican clay figurines, on Grand Canyon sandstone walls USA and other locations.

One major advantage for successfully promoting and studying the evidences for a universal flood is the possibility that all nations would then be forced to come to the realization we are all related and that are all distant cousins, having come from the eight survivors. Perhaps the message of Fatima would then be received and peace will reign.

Therefore to view the evidences that man and dinosaur coexisted in time and that the alleged 65 million years between man and dinosaurs does NOT exist one can search the Internet for the following topics: Fossil human footprints with dinosaurs, the age of the earth, C-14 dating of coal and diamond, Guy Berthault (sedimentology & geology), and Dennis Swift (dinosaur depictions). It is wrong headed and deceptive propaganda to cram Darwinism down our throats when the evidence is not there.

Someday the truth will even get into the media and the world will be the better off for it. Moses and the church fathers got it right.
Pacem:thumbsup:

 

[Philipp]

I’ve already pointed links to resources for that one earlier, they were ignored. Even with the ark remnents being discovered, it still is not enough proof for these guys.

Whoops, I missed that post; I’m famillar with many such evidences but could you repeat the links in case I’ve missed some. I’m aware that there are more expeditions planned yet this summer but the Kurds have captured some Germans as tourists or researchers on Greater Mt. Ararat and I have not heard the outcome of that event.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I’m curious about you guys who go to such lengths to defend the historicity of this story…

Would you mind answering a question?:

Do you have appreciation for literature? Did it make sense to you in literature classes when the teacher would talk about the hidden meanings in fictional stories? Or how about fictional novels or plays which are supposed to have political or philosophical or religious messages behind the literal story? Something that comes to mind here is how Mozart’s “the magic flute” is supposed to have been a commentary on Catholicism, or how Dostoevsky’s “Notes From Underground” is supposed to be a comment on the Enlightenment.

Or do you “get” the symbolism and message of Lord of the Rings or the Chronicles of Narnia series?

I’m just asking because until I came to understand the importance of literature, biblical literalness was a real issue for me. But now I understand that very complex and profound ideas can be presented in other styles than non-fiction.

Whoops, I missed that post; I’m famillar with many such evidences but could you repeat the links in case I’ve missed some. I’m aware that there are more expeditions planned yet this summer but the Kurds have captured some Germans as tourists or researchers on Greater Mt. Ararat and I have not heard the outcome of that event.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

quote from Phillip: “I agree with you that the Story of Noah was based on a real event but more than that I would accept it as a world-wide event as noted in my previous posts. The problem is that the world is not ready for this truth.”

I disagree that the world is not ready for this truth. The truth was not questioned until these last 3 generations. These last 3 generations are consistently trying to use science for the purpose of discrediting the Bible. It is only a matter of short time before they begin attacking the divinity of Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead.

Thank Jesus that those who are in their early 20’s and teenagers are rebuking the world and turning to the TRUTH of Jesus Christ, taught by the Bible and Sacred Tradition taught by the Catholic Church.
I think that those who believe in the theory of evolution based on the fact that the Holy Father says that it is not a sin to believe in it up to a certain point are grasping at straws. They are trying to find anything that will discredit the Truth without being in complete disobedience.
I find life much easier if I am not trying to decipher what needs to be taken as truth, and what needs to be taken as “mythology” (which, by the way, was based on the worshipping of other gods which God specifically said were NOT ALLOWED.).
If I believe everything that the Bible states and the Church teaches, then I cannot go wrong in my faith. I may fail and fall sometimes, but I always know what the Truth is. Why should I need to dissect the Bible to figure out what I will believe or what I won’t. That seems to be calling God a liar.
God did not need to use a story from mythology to explain anything. He is God, who created the earth and man. Therefore, He could easily have explained it as it happened without using something (mythology) which He tells us not to give credit to.
What those who claim Noah and the Ark is just a story are doing is saying that God is contradicting Himself and His laws.
God does no such thing. He is perfect and can neither decieve or be decieved. If the story is a lie, or if it didn’t happen the way the Bible stated, that would make God a deciever. AND HE IS NOT!!! Therefore, I will believe everything the Bible says…including the story of Jonah and the Whale.

 

[Brian_Millar]

“Thank Jesus that those who are in their early 20’s and teenagers are rebuking the world and turning to the TRUTH”

Actually, I found it a case of just the opposite. It seems the 20’s generation would rather break from tradition in so many ways that it’s dumbfounding as to the scale of it. The ideals our generation holds dear simply do not apply to too many of them.

Go into the book store some time, look for the traditional religious books, then take note as to their location and placement next to all fo these crazy new age types of books. This is an indication as to what this generation preferes otherwise, the new age books would not be on the shelves. Go to the childrens section as well, take note as to what is designed to be catered to them, they are literally being groomed in this manner away from the church!

I don’t know about you, but I’m rather outgraged over the matter!

 

[Philipp]

“Thank Jesus that those who are in their early 20’s and teenagers are rebuking the world and turning to the TRUTH”

Actually, I found it a case of just the opposite. It seems the 20’s generation would rather break from tradition in so many ways that it’s dumbfounding as to the scale of it. The ideals our generation holds dear simply do not apply to too many of them.

Go into the book store some time, look for the traditional religious books, then take note as to their location and placement next to all fo these crazy new age types of books. This is an indication as to what this generation preferes otherwise, the new age books would not be on the shelves. Go to the childrens section as well, take note as to what is designed to be catered to them, they are literally being groomed in this manner away from the church!

I don’t know about you, but I’m rather outgraged over the matter!

---

QUOTE FROM JESUS N CHERIE:
quote from Phillip: “I agree with you that the Story of Noah was based on a real event but more than that I would accept it as a world-wide event as noted in my previous posts. The problem is that the world is not ready for this truth.”

I disagree that the world is not ready for this truth. The truth was not questioned until these last 3 generations. These last 3 generations are consistently trying to use science for the purpose of discrediting the Bible. It is only a matter of short time before they begin attacking the divinity of Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead.

PHILIPP: I should have said in the first paragraph “The problem is that science, the media and academia are not ready for this truth.” You may be correct that the youth are ready for such truth but I’d have to qualilfy that by saying some youth in religious communities are ready. The other 50 % or more are more interested in their IPODS, computer games, scary movies, and have never heard of Moses, the Ark, the deluge and Genesis and the nead for faith in God. Most have rarily been inside a church let alone read literature of any sort but what is required in school.

Until the media, main-stream science and academia show some interest in discussing origins in open forums instead of indoctrinating students of all ages with evolutionary gobble-degook the main points needing to be asked and discussed by youth to regain their interest will be ignored: These major thoughts on origin are: Who am I, Where did I come from, Why am I here and Where am I going. Even in church schools I suspect the majority of youth are too busy chasing fairy tales of all sorts. It’s discouraging.

So what can be done about it? Perhaps Pope Benedict can ask those big questions right now while he meeting with the youth in Australia and start everyone thinking. Wouldn’t that be a shocker on the front pages of our newspapers.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

“Thank Jesus that those who are in their early 20’s and teenagers are rebuking the world and turning to the TRUTH”

Actually, I found it a case of just the opposite. It seems the 20’s generation would rather break from tradition in so many ways that it’s dumbfounding as to the scale of it. The ideals our generation holds dear simply do not apply to too many of them.

Go into the book store some time, look for the traditional religious books, then take note as to their location and placement next to all fo these crazy new age types of books. This is an indication as to what this generation preferes otherwise, the new age books would not be on the shelves. Go to the childrens section as well, take note as to what is designed to be catered to them, they are literally being groomed in this manner away from the church!

I don’t know about you, but I’m rather outgraged over the matter!

Brian, I am referring to those Catholics and even many protestant fundamentalists who have been homeschooled. Parents who are homeschooling their children are teaching them about Christ and the Bible in traditional ways. That is one of the main reasons that they are homeschooling. They are totally opposed to what the world wants to teach them, so they are teaching them themselves. And these kids are so awesome in their faith. And they are going to the top notch school, because they are scoring extremely well on the college entrance exams. There are soooo many of them now a days.
I live in a community…the New Orleans, Louisiana area. The Catholic Charasmatic Movement is really big around here. And it holds to the very traditional beliefs of the Apostles. If we question, it is only because we want to understand better, not because we seek for a way to discredit. So, we are wanting to learn…not debate. We follow Rome.
My daughter, who is 15, is very involved in the youth part of this. We have many friends who homeschool and are part of this movement. We are those who attend daily Mass when we can, Eucharistic Adoration, go to confession on a regular basis, say the Rosary, etc. We want to live pure, chaste lives…even if we fall short. We are close and encourage each other in love and faith.
We get together often, and we are always talking about things that are important…our faith.
Brian, do not lose heart. When Christ comes again, if He comes soon, He will find men of faith who love Him still.
I know that there is much that is bad and evil in this world. No one can honestly doubt it. This forum shows it. But there are also those that are following Christ in truth.
Do not lose heart.

 

[Orogeny]

For 40 years scientists refused to believe the studies of a famous pioneering geologist at the University of Chicago as his research seemed at the time to support the flood of Noah as his hypothesis called for an extremely destructive flood to both sedimentary and magmatic rock strata and spoke of a 400 foot deep or so wall of water moving at a 40 to 100miles/hour if my memory serves me right. [The Missoula floods and The Scablands of the NW USA.]. At least the Chicago geologist was able to get his technical papers printed in technical Journals of his day. Those of us who wish to show our evidences for Noah’s flood hypothesis must be satisfied to have their peer reviewed papers printed ONLY in the Creation Science Quarterly and NOT main stream journals like Science, Nature, or the Quaternary Review.

The geologist you refer to was J. Harlan Bretz and there were a couple of reasons his hypothesis was not accepted initially, none of which had to do with Noah. He had no source of the flood water and geologists at the time considered uniformitarianism to mean that geologic processes always occured slowly. Over time, however, his ideas were accepted because they were published, discussed and tested. Science at work!

Perhaps thoughtful mainstream scientists will someday cease to doubt the pioneering studies of scientists who claim that there is ample evidence for a world-wide watery cataclysm well before the now recognized regional ones.

Publish your evidence and let the discussions begin. Your evidence must be properly collected and analyzed or it will be rejected. If you have that, bring it to the table.

The evidence is overwhelming for the major flood event in that dinosaur, coal, amber and other fossils in these huge amounts of sediments have been radiocarabon dated and yield C-14 ages in the range of 20,000 to 50,000 RC years [for good scientific reasons these dates may be too old]. Even diamonds that are allegedly over a billion years in age that erupt from the bowels of the earth give C-14 dates of 58,000 to 80,000 years old as I have repeatedly pointed out and documented with peer reviewed papers. The very sensitive Accelerated Mass Spectrometer unit was used to obtain these dates with an upper limit around 100,000 RC years.

Did you read the ASA discussion about the RATE results? If so, why are you still using this argument?

The evidence for such a flood is also overwhelming in that the massive numbers of less mobile creatures are at the bottom of the sedimetary geologic column and the more mobile ones near the top of the column [man, including giants and dinosaurs].

Sure it does. That is why you find recent and ancient coral fossils, right? The coral fossils in the upper part of the column swam away from the flood until they just couldn’t swim anymore! Those mobile fish (which didn’t look anything like the fish we have today) in Devonian rocks were just slower than the fish from the upper column rocks.

You kinda need to run away from that argument as fast as you can.

To view the evidences that man and dinosaur coexisted in time and that the alleged 65 million years betwen man and dinosaurs does NOT exist one can search the Internet for the following topics: Fossil human footprints with dinosaurs, the age of the earth, C-14 dating of coal and diamond, Guy Berthault (sedimentology), and Dennis Swift (dinosaur depictions).

Berthault has been debunked. Swift is not even accpted by his fellow creationists. Here is an article from Dr. Stephen Meyer of the Discovery Institute.
bibleandscience.com/otherviews/swift.htm

Someday the truth will even get into the media and the world will be the better off for it. Moses and the church fathers got it right.

Have you considered my suggestion to submit your C14 evidence to ASA for review?

Peace

Tim