Strange Anti-Catholic Arguments

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Hello everyone. I hope I haven’t started this new thread in the wrong place (I’m new here).

But anyway, I have been running into some very, very strange anti-Catholics here on the internet. Not the typical Boettner-thumpers, but ones that bring up arguments I seriously cannot find a source for other than anti-Catholic websites.

They basically all claim that they follow the faith of the very first Christian denomination, but Catholicism was just created by Constantine. There’s always some strange argument to go along with it, too.

Anyway, the first time I heard this was from a user on YouTube. He claimed that Constantine was the first Pope, and that the Crusades were all about Catholics murdering SAVED Christians. In other words, he believes Sola Scriptora fundamentalists were the victims of the Crusades.

The second place I heard this from was a reply to a review on “Roman Catholicism” by Boettner on Amazon.com, which is here:

amazon.com/review/R2KTPMEXYNSLST/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0875520928&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful

(The comment was made by Ray Valiant)

Again, he claims Constantine created Catholicism, but he also claims he’s studied Catholic theology using their own works and says Boettner is correct. Then he claims he heard this priest say “either Roman Catholicism is true and the Bible is a lie, or the the Bible is true and Roman Catholicism is a lie. The two cannot be reconciled.”

The third time I heard this was from another user on YouTube, and this time I got quite an argument from him. He claims to belong to a “tradition-keeping” Christian denomination, which doesn’t celebrate any “Christian” holidays such as Easter or Christmas (he pulls the “The Bible warns of Christmas Trees” argument from Jeremiah 10:2-5), and he claims they worship on Saturday, for that’s when the Sabbath is (he also claims there can be more than one Sabbath in a week, which occurred during Holy Week. I asked one of my friends who’s Jewish, and he said that’s not possible, for there’s only one Sabbath a week). And when it comes to Catholicism, he claims that Catholicism was, again, created by Constantine, but because Constantine worshipped the ''Sun God", he moved the Sabbath to "Sun"day, which to him is against The Bible. He acknowledges the Protestant Reformation, but claims that all Protestants are also Pagan, for they stemmed from Catholicism and worship on Sunday. So he basically believes the denomination he belongs to was “the first” Christian faith, and that all others are wrong.

So, any idea where this Constantine Conspiracy Theory came from? Also, does anyone have an idea what kind of denomination that “tradition-keeping” Christian may follow? He wouldn’t say. He just said they consider Saturday the Sabbath, and don’t celebrate any Holiday with Pagan origins. BTW He’s not SDA or Jehova’s Witness; he considers them a stem of Catholicism, too.
 
the2112 said:
Hello everyone. I hope I haven’t started this new thread in the wrong place (I’m new here).

But anyway, I have been running into some very, very strange anti-Catholics here on the internet. Not the typical Boettner-thumpers, but ones that bring up arguments I seriously cannot find a source for other than anti-Catholic websites.

They basically all claim that they follow the faith of the very first Christian denomination, but Catholicism was just created by Constantine. There’s always some strange argument to go along with it, too.

Anyway, the first time I heard this was from a user on YouTube. He claimed that Constantine was the first Pope, and that the Crusades were all about Catholics murdering SAVED Christians. In other words, he believes Sola Scriptora fundamentalists were the victims of the Crusades.

The second place I heard this from was a reply to a review on “Roman Catholicism” by Boettner on Amazon.com, which is here:

amazon.com/review/R2KTPMEXYNSLST/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0875520928&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful

(The comment was made by Ray Valiant)

Again, he claims Constantine created Catholicism, but he also claims he’s studied Catholic theology using their own works and says Boettner is correct. Then he claims he heard this priest say “either Roman Catholicism is true and the Bible is a lie, or the the Bible is true and Roman Catholicism is a lie. The two cannot be reconciled.”

The third time I heard this was from another user on YouTube, and this time I got quite an argument from him. He claims to belong to a “tradition-keeping” Christian denomination, which doesn’t celebrate any “Christian” holidays such as Easter or Christmas (he pulls the “The Bible warns of Christmas Trees” argument from Jeremiah 10:2-5), and he claims they worship on Saturday, for that’s when the Sabbath is (he also claims there can be more than one Sabbath in a week, which occurred during Holy Week. I asked one of my friends who’s Jewish, and he said that’s not possible, for there’s only one Sabbath a week). And when it comes to Catholicism, he claims that Catholicism was, again, created by Constantine, but because Constantine worshipped the ''Sun God", he moved the Sabbath to "Sun"day, which to him is against The Bible. He acknowledges the Protestant Reformation, but claims that all Protestants are also Pagan, for they stemmed from Catholicism and worship on Sunday. So he basically believes the denomination he belongs to was “the first” Christian faith, and that all others are wrong.

So, any idea where this Constantine Conspiracy Theory came from? Also, does anyone have an idea what kind of denomination that “tradition-keeping” Christian may follow? He wouldn’t say. He just said they consider Saturday the Sabbath, and don’t celebrate any Holiday with Pagan origins. BTW He’s not SDA or Jehova’s Witness; he considers them a stem of Catholicism, too.
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:yawn: Same ole boring baloney sandwich. Yeah they all claim to be the ‘first’ Christians and yet I can bet all my life savings he has an iota of evdence to back it up!
 
OP, you may just want to Google “Constantine” on some valid historical websites. You’ll find that “Catholic” as well as other Christian groups/heresies abounded well before Constantine’s time, and these were all liturgical, not “Bible”, churches. Constantine pressured Christian bishops to come to an agreement as to which Christian form was the “true” one, what beliefs were correct doctrines, etc. Catholicism eventually emerged from these early councils, while other expressions became heresies and/or went further afield in the Empire (e.g., Nestorianism that went all the way to China).

Careful reading will show you that Constantine’s role was to hammer out a single Christianity. He did not “invent” Catholicism - or any of the other current forms of Christianity. Nor was Constantine the “first pope”. He was a late, even a death-bed convert, and he was never a priest or a bishop - whereas the papacy arose out of the bishoprics of the ancient Empire.

The historical truth alone is sufficient to deflate the ridiculous fundy claiims you have cited here 🙂
 
Many Anti catholics think Constantine was the first Pope because they think we worhship on Sundays thanks to Constantines Sunday law edict in 321 AD. Some even think he Invented or founded the Catholic Church. However, what anti catholics ingore is that none of these claims are historical. Christians worshipped on Sunday ever since Christ resurrected.

“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).
-The Letter of Barnabas

And Constantine cannot be the First Pope or Founder of our Faith either because way before him there is a line of Bishops succeding Peter the First Pope

“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus [2nd pope]. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus [3rd pope], and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement [4th pope] was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles… To this Clement, Evaristus [5th pope] succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius [13th pope]. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us” (Against Heresies, 3, 3, 3[A.D. 189]).
-Irenaeus

Constantine did help though, he was the First Roman Emperor converted to Catholicism. With his conversion the persecution of Christians stop, and Sunday worship is then the official day to Worship throughout his Empire.
 
Seventh day adventists claim that christians are to keep the “Sabbath” (Saturday) and not the Sunday as early christians did.
However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

“Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 107]).

-Ignatius of Antioch

“We too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . How is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . .” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]). “But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

-Justin Martyr

“Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian. . . . Which of these commandments would anyone say that the Christian ought not to keep? It is possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle [Paul] describes as ‘the letter that kills’ [2 Cor. 3:6], but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished” (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).

-Augustine*
 
ChrisRedfield47 said:
Seventh day adventists claim that christians are to keep the “Sabbath” (Saturday) and not the Sunday as early christians did.
However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

“Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 107]).

-Ignatius of Antioch

“We too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . How is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . .” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]). “But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

-Justin Martyr

“Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian. . . . Which of these commandments would anyone say that the Christian ought not to keep? It is possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle [Paul] describes as ‘the letter that kills’ [2 Cor. 3:6], but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished” (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).

-Augustine*

Here’s one more for you.

On the Lord’s Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure; but let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, “In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king,” saith the Lord, “and my name is wonderful among the heathen.” -** The Didache , Between 70-110 AD**
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What happens is that pretty much SDAs, JWs, or other sects want to drive out Catholics from their faith with lies concerning Constantine, but theres nothing u should worry about regarding this fact, just simply ignore them. There is no evidence or anything that suggests that Constantine created Catholicism, he himself was a convert.
 
Hello I see your getting the same arguments I have been getting for 5 years now on youtube.I am CAtholic29 on youtube I was onclave6 at one point until hackers got into my system somehow .Constantine embraced Christianity he did not invent it . The RCC was founded at the time of Jesus by Jesus himself "You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church " (Matt 16 ) . The CAtholic church is mentioned in both Bishop Ignatius of Antioch’s writings as well as in the Martyrdom of Poly Carp . These writings were written before the mid second century .The words Catholic church are mentioned in both writings.Both Bishops were students of John the Apostle who was of course a student of Jesus and one of the twelve given authority by Jesus to be a leader of the church(Matthew 18) I will read up on that denomination you are talking about .
 
Colossians 2:17–19: “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.” This verse has been vigorously debated. What is meant by “Sabbath day”? How are we to understand “Let no man judge you”?

The Old Testament usage of the terms listed in Colossians 2:16 (“festival,” “new moon,” and “Sabbath”) make clear beyond question that Paul is referring to the weekly Sabbath. In the Old Testament, Sabbath convocations—that is, the list of Sabbaths (days), new moons (months), and fixed festivals (seasons)—were listed in ascending or descending order. The ascending order of 1 Chronicles 23:31—". . . and whenever burnt offerings are offered to the Lord on Sabbaths, new moons, and feast days, according to the number required of them"—is echoed in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:12–13, and 31:3; whereas a descending order—“And it shall be the prince’s part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offering, and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons, and on the Sabbaths, as all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel”—is used in 1 Chronicles 23:31. In Colossians 2:16–17 Paul uses the same structure as the Old Testament writers, allowing us to be sure that he is writing about not only the yearly and seasonal Sabbaths, but also about the weekly Sabbath.

When Paul writes “Let no one pass judgment on you,” the text suggests that the ones who were doing the judging were the Jewish Christians who were practicing the old covenant convocations and other dietary aberrations of Christianity. Finally, Paul writes that the Sabbath is a shadow of things to come, and that the substance is in Christ. It is clear from this text that Paul, like the Old Testament writers, considered all the Old Testament convocations as inseparable; indeed, in saying that all three are a mere shadow of things to come, he makes no distinction between the first two terms and the third. Paul concludes that the reality lies in Christ. The Greek literally reads: “but the body is of Christ,” meaning that all of our lives and all of our energies need to be submitted to Christ who is ever present to us and that the old covenant convocations such as the Sabbath are no longer binding.
 
Also even though Sun-day refers to the sun, In Roman and Green culture every day had its own specific Pagan god. I believe Saturday refers to Saturn a Pagan god. In hinduism they also have their own pagan god for saturday, and many other cultures do or did as well. So to think that we worship on sunday bcuz we “Worship the sun” is a pure lie. So if we worshipped on monday, this would be equal to worship the moon (since monday is teh day of the moon in many cultures)?

Remember all these people do NOT have any evidence of what they claim
 
Same old nonsense based on no truth and fringe thinking to promote a specific idea. I often wonder what the real motive and base is. Doesn’t seem good does it?

Really had they been seeking out the truth, then they would come to a place like here and put there aberration in thinking up to see if it stands? 🤷

God Bless, Gary
 
To refute the more general argument that the non-Catholic denomination was the “first” church, I would recommend reading the Church Fathers and good commentary of them. While I haven’t yet , it is astonishing how many Protestants of various guises actually do that to learn more about what they think is their church, and end up converting to Catholicism.

I am pretty sure some of the CA personalities (Keating, Akin etc) actually went this route, but I cannot vouch for any specific name.
 
Yeah I know this Constantine Conspiracy Theory is a load. It’s as true as Acharya S.'s Christ Conspiracies. These claims simply come from no credible source. I sent a big “you’re wrong” message to the last YouTube user I heard this from based on that if this was true, history books would be claiming the same thing, and more people would know about it. And then I blocked him. It was turning into a waste of time.

But, I would just like to know where the Constantine Conspiracy Theory originated. It’s not in Boettner’s book is it? Or did it possibly come from Hislop?

Also, what kind of denomination could that “tradition-keeping Christian” belong to? He basically thinks that his denomination is the first and that every other denomination that came to be in the Protestant Reformation broke off of Catholicism, which includes SDA, which would be the denomination that comes closest to believing what he believes. He also doesn’t celebrate any religious holiday because they have Pagan origins (like I said, he believes Jeremiah 10:1-5 proves Christmas Trees are bad. Here it is:

[1] Hear what the Lord says to you , O house of Israel. [2] This is what the Lord says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. [3] For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. [4] They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. [5] Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk.

It sort of does, but what’s interesting is that he left out the last part of verse 5, which is:

“Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.”

…which would pretty much completely prove his claims wrong).

So, could this be just an isolated, non-denomiational, Christian “Cult”? Do such things exist?

But anyway, I want to reply to that guy who posted that comment on Amazon, and debunk his claims. It’d be pretty easy to prove he’s lying or is delusional about his claims of studying Catholicism and assuring that Boettner is correct, disprove the quote from that priest, plus shed light on the (media’s version) of the abuse scandal. But along with just simply showing how history proves the Constantine Conspiracy Theory is wrong, I want to get to the source of it and debunk it itself.

Oh and BTW, the two YouTube users are former Catholics.
 
the2112 said:
They basically all claim that they follow the faith of the very first Christian denomination, but Catholicism was just created by Constantine. There’s always some strange argument to go along with it, too.
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I have been asking for more Constantine-refuting apologetics for a long time now, and it’s only “strange” insofar as not being discussed by apologists with the same prominence as other issues. When will Jimmy Akin write a book about it? When will Tim Staples? There’s no shortage of blogs about Constantine, but unfortunately, ***many non-Catholics do sincerely believe that Constantine started the Roman Catholic Church and as such, they don’t feel the need to ask. ***That’s why you never hear anyone call in to Catholic Answers Live about it: they either take it as a given, or they think it’s “taboo” to ask. Yes, it is a strange objection, but a VERY pervasive objection.
 
I feel your pain, OP. The person you describe could very well be the same guy I “dialogued” with for over two months. He bought into the Constantine/Pope thing AND he told me that “ALL the early church fathers were in error”. Seriously. He reads all the same anti-Catholic websites that your friend probably does.

While I pulled out source after source after source to back up my arguments, all he could come up with were those same anti-Catholic websites where I showed him that if you drill down on what they say, there’s nothing to back it up.

Part of the problem now is, with the internet being what it is, these people can start a site and say whatever they want to.

Just keep asking him to provide you with evidence that Constantine was the first Pope. Encourage him to read the early church fathers.

Everything he says, tell him to PROVE IT!!!

I’m no expert, but I just had to post because it sounds like your experience is very similar to mine. If you have any questions, PM me. Maybe I can help with some info.
 
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