Strange Experience on Tuesday

[otjm]

But that was not the question. The fact that the FSSP is growing steadily is not dependent on its small size. The fact that it has ordained several hundred priests, nearly all of them young, indicates steady growth. The fact that such a “miniscule” order ordained a number of priests last year (and the year before, and the year before that, and next year) comparable to much larger orders and dioceses if most impressive, indeed.

In the whole world - and they draw from a number of countries - they ordain an average of 11. In the whole world.

No, that is not impressive, out of what - over a billion Catholics world wide?

They are growing, at a snail’s pace. The growth you note is over about 29 years. They have 86 priests incardinated in the US, spread out over 37 dioceses; and there are about 16,230 active diocesan priests in the US. One half of one percent is not impressive; it is factual but they are a minuscule number; and they continue to average about 11 ordinations per year. It is not like they are growing the number of ordinations each year; it varies, but the average of 11, according to them, is from 2005 through 2016; and they have 132 seminarians spread world-wide. They are remaining about stasis.

They are fine priests. They serve a need, but most certainly do not serve even a large fraction of the parishes in the US which have an EF Mass regularly calendared. It is far more likely they will have a parish which is largely, if not primarily devoted to the EF, and that too is wonderful. It is also a distinct minority, as most parishes which have an EF include that along with the OF at other Masses.

 

[otjm]

Is it any different than when people who prefer the OF refer to those who prefer the EF as backwards or sometimes even worse? Several posts in this very thread seem to have insinuated that TLM supporters are insignificant and of little value. It strikes me as wrong to speak of people that way. There are certainly some arrogant and hostile people on the traditional side, but the other side is certainly not immune.

If you are referring to me (and I will presume you are, since I am the one giving statistics), I have never said anything about “little value”. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone who attends an EF Mass.

I am also well aware that there are people who would prefer the EF but do not have it available, and that is due to a combination of facts, including that we have more parishes (@ 17,300) in the US, and fewer than 1 priest per parish over the US. The bishops have to address the need for Masses, and the vast majority of people attending Mass on a regular basis, for all the evidence there is, want the OF. That leaves few and far between the number of priests who can include an EF Mass within the current parish schedule. Nine years ago - a year into the time after Summorum Pontificum was promulgated, there were people indicating that the EF was sweeping across the US. It simply wasn’t. In 10 years, less than 3% of all parishes have any EF Mass at all; and some of them are on an every other week basis or once a month.

There simply are few people in the overall population who will go to a Parish which has the EF Mass. In Portland, the seat of the Archdiocese of Portland, out of 45 parishes, one has an EF and an OF on Sunday; an OF Monday through Friday in the morning, and an EF Monday, Wednesday and Friday evening and Saturday morning (with no evening Mass of either form). The other parish has the EF and the OF on Sunday, the OF Monday through Friday, and the EF on Saturday. And for the EF, neither of them are full, let alone packed.

If those facts make you uncomfortable, I am sorry; but they are not given for that purpose. They are given for perspective.

And this all started because of a comment by another poster that the EF was growing. It is not, in any normal sense of the term. it is about at stasis; and as I noted, several months ago a priest who is devoted to the EF in a published article expressed his concern that the EF could be in danger of being less available, I would presume he has a much better perspective on the matter than those here who insist it is growing.

I am not hostile to the EF; I grew up with it, and as a lay person (altar boy) I had every position available to someone non-ordained, including Master of Ceremonies at Solemn High Masses. I have no problem with it being made more available if that is possible, but in many circumstances, there are not enough people requesting it for the bishop to be able to provide it.

 

[Fuerza]

If you are referring to me (and I will presume you are, since I am the one giving statistics), I have never said anything about “little value”. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone who attends an EF Mass.

I am also well aware that there are people who would prefer the EF but do not have it available, and that is due to a combination of facts, including that we have more parishes (@ 17,300) in the US, and fewer than 1 priest per parish over the US. The bishops have to address the need for Masses, and the vast majority of people attending Mass on a regular basis, for all the evidence there is, want the OF. That leaves few and far between the number of priests who can include an EF Mass within the current parish schedule. Nine years ago - a year into the time after Summorum Pontificum was promulgated, there were people indicating that the EF was sweeping across the US. It simply wasn’t. In 10 years, less than 3% of all parishes have any EF Mass at all; and some of them are on an every other week basis or once a month.

There simply are few people in the overall population who will go to a Parish which has the EF Mass. In Portland, the seat of the Archdiocese of Portland, out of 45 parishes, one has an EF and an OF on Sunday; an OF Monday through Friday in the morning, and an EF Monday, Wednesday and Friday evening and Saturday morning (with no evening Mass of either form). The other parish has the EF and the OF on Sunday, the OF Monday through Friday, and the EF on Saturday. And for the EF, neither of them are full, let alone packed.

If those facts make you uncomfortable, I am sorry; but they are not given for that purpose. They are given for perspective.

And this all started because of a comment by another poster that the EF was growing. It is not, in any normal sense of the term. it is about at stasis; and as I noted, several months ago a priest who is devoted to the EF in a published article expressed his concern that the EF could be in danger of being less available, I would presume he has a much better perspective on the matter than those here who insist it is growing.

I am not hostile to the EF; I grew up with it, and as a lay person (altar boy) I had every position available to someone non-ordained, including Master of Ceremonies at Solemn High Masses. I have no problem with it being made more available if that is possible, but in many circumstances, there are not enough people requesting it for the bishop to be able to provide it.

Your presumption would be incorrect.

 

[pianistclare]

Your presumption would be incorrect.

But it’s accurate information, and that is the salient point.
No one is out to get you.

 

[otjm]

Your presumption would be incorrect.

Well, that is nice to know. Thank you for responding.

 

[Chatter163]

In the whole world - and they draw from a number of countries - they ordain an average of 11. In the whole world.

No, that is not impressive, out of what - over a billion Catholics world wide?

They are growing, at a snail’s pace. The growth you note is over about 29 years. They have 86 priests incardinated in the US, spread out over 37 dioceses; and there are about 16,230 active diocesan priests in the US. One half of one percent is not impressive; it is factual but they are a minuscule number; and they continue to average about 11 ordinations per year. It is not like they are growing the number of ordinations each year; it varies, but the average of 11, according to them, is from 2005 through 2016; and they have 132 seminarians spread world-wide. They are remaining about stasis.

They are fine priests. They serve a need, but most certainly do not serve even a large fraction of the parishes in the US which have an EF Mass regularly calendared. It is far more likely they will have a parish which is largely, if not primarily devoted to the EF, and that too is wonderful. It is also a distinct minority, as most parishes which have an EF include that along with the OF at other Masses.

Please feel free to name other orders that have grown twenty-fold in their first thirty years of existence. You continually refer to the FSSP only by means of comparing their size to the rest of the Church, but never acknowledge that they have very young priests (average age 37), and their biggest problem–despite a completely newly-built seminary in the US, and another in Germany–is not having enough facilities for their many applicants. You don’t mention their percentage of growth, however small they may be, or the exponential growth that they continue to experience. The original question regarded their steady growth, not how large they are compared to the rest of the clergy. And by any measure, their growth has been anything but a snail’s pace. It has been exponential, as shown here. fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm Note the line graph, in particular. Most orders would love to experience this rate of growth, instead of the opposite. FSSP

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Please feel free to name other orders that have grown twenty-fold in their first thirty years of existence. You continually refer to the FSSP only by means of comparing their size to the rest of the Church, but never acknowledge that they have very young priests (average age 37), and their biggest problem–despite a completely newly-built seminary in the US, and another in Germany–is not having enough facilities for their many applicants. You don’t mention their percentage of growth, however small they may be, or the exponential growth that they continue to experience. The original question regarded their steady growth, not how large they are compared to the rest of the clergy. And by any measure, their growth has been anything but a snail’s pace. It has been exponential, as shown here. fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm Note the line graph, in particular. Most orders would love to experience this rate of growth, instead of the opposite. FSSP

To a priest whose life has largely been in formation work…no. Those numbers are simply not that impressive. Nor are the results that meaningful given the extraordinarily limited scope of these priests sphere of pastoral work.

 

[otjm]

Please feel free to name other orders that have grown twenty-fold in their first thirty years of existence. You continually refer to the FSSP only by means of comparing their size to the rest of the Church, but never acknowledge that they have very young priests (average age 37), and their biggest problem–despite a completely newly-built seminary in the US, and another in Germany–is not having enough facilities for their many applicants. You don’t mention their percentage of growth, however small they may be, or the exponential growth that they continue to experience. The original question regarded their steady growth, not how large they are compared to the rest of the clergy. And by any measure, their growth has been anything but a snail’s pace. It has been exponential, as shown here. fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm Note the line graph, in particular. Most orders would love to experience this rate of growth, instead of the opposite. FSSP

averaging 9.3 priests per year since 1988 is not exponential growth. It is simply steady growth. I don’t know where you learned mathematics, but you missed a bit.

The line on the graph shows steady growth, as I have said. It most certainly does not show exponential growth. And when they continue to average as low as they are doing, the percentage of growth per year goes down as the size of the group goes up.

As noted, they are minuscule. The have 86 priests incardinated in the US, spread out over what - 37 dioceses? That averages about 2.3 priests per diocese. and it works out to about one half of one percent of all the priests in the US who are active.

That, too, is minuscule.

And by the way, what exponent were you thinking they grow by? 2? that would have them doubling every year.