Strange Reactions

[cue]

I have had FSSP priests tell me that many of the older folks have a chip on their shoulder about TLM. Fortunatly TLM movement is driven by younger folks born after 1970.

Many of the “older folks” have received the benefits of the “TLM culture,” benefits which the current generation is often deprived of. For example, many complain about memorizing catechism questions. It cannot be denied, though, that they established a solid foundation in knowing their faith. It is only on this foundation that the ‘new approach’ to faith (experiential, watered-down stories about flowers and loving everything) was able to survive and get people by. Then this younger generation grew up under that ideology. Deprived of that foundation, the young people began to clinge to and reach for “old church” or “old culture,” to the astonishment of the older generation. The truth is that the older generation, which was provided with this foundation cannot know what it is like to be deprived of it and so are not able to relate very well with those who were deprived of it and desire its return (although it never should have left).

 

[verdigirl]

I would be interested to see what response you get. Honestly I would. I go to an oratory in St. Louis that is 100% traditional that is 80 miles from my home, but have a Novus Ordo parish right across the road from my house. I have begged, pleaded, cried, well you get the picture, for restoring the things mentioned above, but have received nothiing but outright hostility from the priest. He’s very comfortable not learning anything new and not adding anything on to his daily routine. You have to remember, there is ALOT of work recatechizing Catholics. Matter of fact, the entire earth needs to be re-evangelized.

LOL! Hear, hear.

Can you scare up a group of regular mass-goers who would commit to being present for TLM at the parish across the street? If so, you now have a case to present to the Bishop.

 

[marymonde]

LOL! Hear, hear.

Can you scare up a group of regular mass-goers who would commit to being present for TLM at the parish across the street? If so, you now have a case to present to the Bishop.

Yes, we have gone to him as a group. He told us flat out, “I don’t want to”. I have asked my TLM priest what to do, and he said pray, fast, and go back and ask 6 months later. Presently, that is the road I am taking.

 

[verdigirl]

Yes, we have gone to him as a group. He told us flat out, “I don’t want to”. I have asked my TLM priest what to do, and he said pray, fast, and go back and ask 6 months later. Presently, that is the road I am taking.

Sounds prudent.

Putting myself in the priest’s shoes, it must be a scary prospect, trying to learn the intricacies of the ritual, and still having to care for the wide and varied needs of the parish. I bet this is at the core of his resistance.

Vatican II is good for the priest stretched too thin, because some things can be shunted off to laypeople.

However, I’m reminded of the widow and the judge in Luke 18. Keep on keepin’ on, sister!

 

[nobeerinheaven]

Vatican II is good for the priest stretched too thin, because some things can be shunted off to laypeople.

Isn’t this one major reason why there are so few priests left? Priests just aren’t needed, like they used to be.

 

[verdigirl]

Isn’t this one major reason why there are so few priests left? Priests just aren’t needed, like they used to be.

I honestly don’t think so. I think that as Church we’re fighting a battle against commercialism, abuse of sex and the almighty dollar. Over the last couple of decades, there has been a romance with making as much money as possible. Remember all those Wall Street type movies that were big in the 80s?

As a result, I think that young men are actively discouraged from vocations because it holds values that are diametrically opposed to the values of the “world.”

I think that newer concepts like stewardship will do a lot to bring our young men back to an internal conversation with God. Part of the stewardship process is to foster vocations. Also, since the central point of stewardship is that the natural response of the grateful heart is to praise God and love him by serving his people. One thing that traditionalists are very good about is to not focus so much on “me, me, me” and more on God. We would do well to learn this.

 

[mtr01]

I honestly don’t think so. I think that as Church we’re fighting a battle against commercialism, abuse of sex and the almighty dollar. Over the last couple of decades, there has been a romance with making as much money as possible. Remember all those Wall Street type movies that were big in the 80s?

As a result, I think that young men are actively discouraged from vocations because it holds values that are diametrically opposed to the values of the “world.”

I think that newer concepts like stewardship will do a lot to bring our young men back to an internal conversation with God. Part of the stewardship process is to foster vocations. Also, since the central point of stewardship is that the natural response of the grateful heart is to praise God and love him by serving his people. One thing that traditionalists are very good about is to not focus so much on “me, me, me” and more on God. We would do well to learn this.

I think these are good observations. However there is another factor discouraging vocations. In the past, Catholics (especially) had larger families, making it easier to “give one to the Church”. Today, as part of the contraceptive mentality, families are having far fewer children, and, as you mention, a vocation to the priesthood isn’t seen by many parents as “successful” - they’d rather discourage vocations to the priesthood and encourage sons to be doctors and lawyers and such - occupations where they can make a lot of money and therefore be “successful”.

 

[thedavidwilson]

I honestly don’t think so. I think that as Church we’re fighting a battle against commercialism, abuse of sex and the almighty dollar. Over the last couple of decades, there has been a romance with making as much money as possible. Remember all those Wall Street type movies that were big in the 80s?

As a result, I think that young men are actively discouraged from vocations because it holds values that are diametrically opposed to the values of the “world.”

I think that newer concepts like stewardship will do a lot to bring our young men back to an internal conversation with God. Part of the stewardship process is to foster vocations. Also, since the central point of stewardship is that the natural response of the grateful heart is to praise God and love him by serving his people. One thing that traditionalists are very good about is to not focus so much on “me, me, me” and more on God. We would do well to learn this.

I think one explanation of the lack of vocations is the secularization or modernization of the Church. Men and women see the religious today and they see someone who does not stand out; they are called by their first names, they wear street clothes and are barely recognizable as religous and do not speak out on controversial issues. So when young people look at religious today all they think they see are regular people who are nothing special and don’t get paid well.

When a marine walks into a room with his dress uniform on people take notice and automatically give him respect (most of the time). I think this partly has to do with the uniform. It is a symbol of something that deserves respect. Marines don’t make a lot of money and most if not all did not join to kill people. They joined because the honor and duty inloved.

The cassock and habit are symbols of the specialness of that person/vocation and people are a little more respectful when they see someone wearing it. These symbols are important to people and is why churches use to be ornately adorned and tabernacles are ornate and golden. It is a symbol of the majesty of God.

I think we need to bring back the “uniforms” and dicipline of the religious. Us Catholics will never be able to compete with the secular world (and should never try). If we are the same as the secular world and not counter to it then we are probably on the wrong path.

 

[verdigirl]

I think we need to bring back the “uniforms” and dicipline of the religious. Us Catholics will never be able to compete with the secular world (and should never try). If we are the same as the secular world and not counter to it then we are probably on the wrong path.

Yeah, I’m with you there. The values of poverty, celibacy and obedience are extremely counter-culture, and there’s no reason to hide it!

 

[sneakers]

I went to the local “Catholic” bookstore in my diocese (in quotes because I am starting to really doubt the genuine Catholicism of the owners. There are quite a few books that are on the new age and heretical side that they carry)

Here is a recent exchange I had with one of the cashiers:

“Do you carry missals for the Latin Mass?”
“Those aren’t printed anymore. Why would you need one anyway?”
“To use when attending the local TLM”
“The what?”
“Latin Mass”
“I went to those when I was a kid, I hated them. I am so glad we do them in English now. No one offers Latin Masses anymore”
“There is one at St.XXXX. And the Motu Proprio the Pope issued a few months back lets priests celebrate the Mass without the Bishop’s approval”
“The Pope issued a what?”
“Never mind. Thanks”

That’s close to the same exchange I had with a man from my church. He called to ask if I’d help out with something at the church after the 5:30 Saturday evening mass.

I said “I had been going to the Latin mass in another town.”
Him: “oh yeah, I haven’t seen you around in awhile”
Me: “since the pope released the motu proprio, several priests were prepared to start offering the Latin Mass right away.”
Him: “What’s a Motu Proprio? Is that where they can get permission from the bishop?”
Me: “No - They don’t need permission any more. I’ve been hearing about this for months. Lots of people were really happy about it”
Him: “Oh” (change subject)

Now mind you, this is a man who is very, very involved in the church! It just confirmed for me that not a word was said in our parish. I

 

[brigid12]

I think one explanation of the lack of vocations is the secularization or modernization of the Church. Men and women see the religious today and they see someone who does not stand out; they are called by their first names, they wear street clothes and are barely recognizable as religous and do not speak out on controversial issues. So when young people look at religious today all they think they see are regular people who are nothing special and don’t get paid well.

When a marine walks into a room with his dress uniform on people take notice and automatically give him respect (most of the time). I think this partly has to do with the uniform. It is a symbol of something that deserves respect. Marines don’t make a lot of money and most if not all did not join to kill people. They joined because the honor and duty inloved.

The cassock and habit are symbols of the specialness of that person/vocation and people are a little more respectful when they see someone wearing it. These symbols are important to people and is why churches use to be ornately adorned and tabernacles are ornate and golden. It is a symbol of the majesty of God.

I think we need to bring back the “uniforms” and dicipline of the religious. Us Catholics will never be able to compete with the secular world (and should never try). If we are the same as the secular world and not counter to it then we are probably on the wrong path.

I really agree with you there!!! Also, since there is more “casualness” regarding liturgy, catechesis, et al and not the orthodoxy, I see vocations as having slipped. (I’m sure you’re aware of the differences in vocations in diocese which are orthodox as opposed to not.)

I’ve noticed blank/dismayed looks also (except when I converse with another convert) about the TLM. It would be so sad if part of the reason for this is money/power. However, I’m afraid it may be values/license. Course many of the laity haven’t even heard of the recent MP. And, I would guess that many of the priests are waiting to be obedient to their bishop and haven’t had word from them yet.

Actually, although I may have missed it, I haven’t heard Catholic Answers radio address the MP or the TLM. Did I miss it? Course, I realize that this MP isn’t the most important thing about the Catholic Church.

 

[sneakers]

I would agree to a certain extent that people just don’t continue learning their faith, but as a product of the late '60’s early '70’s Catholic grade school, I can tell you there is much more to the story.

When I started school I had to memorize the Baltimore Catechism, “What is your purpose in life?” Answer: “To know, love, and serve God in this life, so I may be happy with Him in the next”. We had to know the 7 sacraments, what actual and sanctifying grace was, etc. By the time I was in 5th grade I learned a good Hindu could get to heaven. Everything I MEMORIZED and held dear as my faith, was gone. Talk about confusing. The nuns use to cover their entire bodies, head to toe, as Brides of Christ. In 5th grade the habits were gone and it was shocking not to see the differences between a lay teacher and a nun. Everything, that looked Catholic, smelled Catholic (the incense went out the door too), sounded Catholic was changed, almost overnight.

Adult catechesis, stopped as well. No more classes to continue to TEACH the faithful what the Catholic church taught. Confessionals use to be open all morning and afternoon, all day Saturday long. Then the doors closed on that as well and you were lucky to find a confessional that was open more than 15 minutes before the new 5 pm Saturday anticipated mass. Devotions literally ceased in many parishes (not all). No more May crownings, no more Corpus Christi processions, no more Mother of Perpetual Help devotions. Gone. Catholic life, as I knew it, was put under a bushel basket to be hidden.

Now go again and talk to the older Catholics and ask them if what I relayed to you happened to them. Many had the fight taken out of them. There was nowhere for them to turn, no one to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that they grew up with and loved. The mystery, the awe was silenced, so they just followed the program and maintained silence as well.

Fwiw…most TLM chapels, oratories, and parishes are thriving because of YOUNG families, families open to having as many children as God wants them to have. The pews are full and they are wanting to hand the traditions down to their children, as it has been handed down the them for centuries. They fight the good fight by being fruitful and mulitplying, by giving God what is due to Him for His Greater Glory. It’s refreshing to see this catching on and growing in Holy Mother Church.

Ask your priest if he offers Catechism classes for ALL the faithful. Ask him to educate the children beyond their confirmations, if they get confirmed at all, ask your priest to bring back the devotions to Our Lady and the saints. Ask your priest to offer the TLM. Tell him you want it all. See what happens when YOU challenge him. It’s usually VERY interesting!

Marymonde, you have me in tears, because I agree with you 100%. So much has been lost.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I get funny looks when fellow Catholics find out that I attend the Tridentine Mass. I am a recent revert, and when I speak to other Catholics that I know, they become very reserved when they find out that I prefer the Latin Mass.

Take this as an example, I’ve just visited the bookshop at my local Cathedral in the hopes that I could buy a 1962 Missal. When I asked the shop attendant if they had one, she looked at me as if I had just asked her if they sell hot dogs. She also said she hoped that the TLM wouldn’t come back.

Another example, when my sister’s mother in law (devout catholic) found out that I attend the TLM apparently she was less than impressed.

Why is do they dislike the TLM so much? And why are they so against it making a big come back?

It’s getting to the point were I don’t like talking to non-traditional Catholics because they have totally different viewpoints to me. I’m not saying that I’m better than anyone, but it seems that we believe in different things.

I’ve read many times on this forum that some Priests and Bishops are very reluctant to allow the Tridentine Mass. I really don’t understand why this is so.

I just thought I’d share my feelings with you. I like the Latin Mass because it provides nourishment for my soul, and for no other reasons than that. I have no problems with the Novus Ordo and this is why I can’t understand it when people are so against the Latin Mass. It’s not as if they are forced to attend.

Has anyone else noticed this rift?

(I also would like to note my appreciation for marymonde’s post quoted above.)

I can understand where you’re coming from. I think with people who prefer the TLM it’s not just the old Mass they love. It’s the vestments, the altar rails, the beautiful churches, candles, relics, devotions, etc. And sometimes it seems with some Catholics, who don’t share our love for these things, or consider them mere “externals” and thus expendable, I’ve had the feeling that while we are both Catholics, I literally don’t have much in common with them.

One phrase written by Dietrich von Hildebrand I’ve found helpful is, “Catholic ethos”. Von Hildebrand is writing primarily about prudential decisions of the Church, yet I think a Catholic ethos can also be evinced (or not) in the things I listed above. Here is the quote which uses the phrase:

“I had looked forward to Jesuit Father John A. Hardon’s *Catholic Catechism *in the hope that it would be not only faithful to Catholic Dogma, but also filled with an authentic Catholic ethos.”

(The entire article is reprinted here):
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr44/cr44pg18.asp

And when some people seem like they are perfectly willing or happy to let this “ethos” (or environment) slip away or die and see no real loss, it is difficult to relate to their attitude.

Here is an interesting and helpful article, “The Politics of Architecture”
by Peter Kreeft. In it he compares and contrasts a conservative, traditionalist, liberal and radical point of view.

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=3942

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’ve had the feeling that while we are both Catholics, I literally don’t have much in common with them.

Try and imagine the discomfort of those of us who are not radically liberal OR radically traditional.

 

[Pug]

And when some people seem like they are perfectly willing or happy to let this “ethos” (or environment) slip away or die and see no real loss, it is difficult to relate to their attitude.

What is the ethos of Catholicism? Can you give examples, both older and more recent?

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Try and imagine the discomfort of those of us who are not radically liberal OR radically traditional.

I don’t consider a strong love and devotion for the TLM and everything that usually goes with it such as altar rails, communion on the tongue, churches that look Catholic, Gregorian chant, etc. to be radically traditional. I consider it to be normal.

 

[the_phoenix]

I don’t consider a strong love and devotion for the TLM and everything that usually goes with it such as altar rails, communion on the tongue, churches that look Catholic, Gregorian chant, etc. to be radically traditional. I consider it to be normal.

Neither do I consider the TLM and everything that usually goes with it to be radically traditional. I consider it to be beautiful.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

What is the ethos of Catholicism? Can you give examples, both older and more recent?

Well, more recent examples can be found here:

keepthefaith.org/

I especially like Dr. William Marra. Of course, they are embodying an ancient faith so I don’t know if their embodiment can be called recent.

I would call a Catholic ethos the way the Faith has been embodied or incarnated for most her history, such as in her liturgy, architecture, devotions, etc., and in the writings of the Saints and other faithful Catholics. Now, von Hildebrand is talking about some things Fr. Hardon wrote in his catechism. Here is an example:

“The architects of Church policy have tried to eliminate everything that might possibly separate us from the Protestants. Father Hardon even notes this with approval in that part of his “Catechism” dealing with ecumenism. One wonders why he does not link this very ecumenism with the changes in the liturgy. Here are his words, page 243:“On the practical level this means that Catholics should avoid any words, judgments or actions that do not correspond to what other Christians believe or do. Positively, they should engage in dialogue with separated brethren through discussion, co-operative action, and corporate prayer. Such dialogue presumes study and the desire to learn how the Orthodox, Anglicans, and Protestants worship, what they believe, and how their allegiance to Christ has affected their lives.” The above passage is sad to contemplate. Here is a Roman Catholic Catechism whose author certainly intends to oppose liberal and progressive trends and to be strictly orthodox. Yet he says that Catholics must avoid words, judgments and actions which do not correspond to what other Christians believe. This attitude reflects not ecumenism, but rather the fatal disease which I call “ecumenitis”. Let us recall the recent Eucharistic Congress in Melbourne, Australia. Cardinal Knox, anticipating the suggestion of Father Hardon, purposely omitted the great Eucharistic procession so as not to offend the Protestants he had invited to participate. Indeed, eliminating the procession was one of the conditions of their presence at the Congress! Can we fairly call this consistent with genuine ecumenism? If we have real Christian love for our Protestant brethren, we must have the desire to see them find the one, true, authentic Christian faith. True love can only seek to have the individual Protestant convert to Catholicism. During my long life I have met innumerable ardent converts from Protestantism to Catholicism. (I am myself a convert, though from only a weak and merely formal Protestantism). But not a single convert I have known was ever converted by public dialogues between Catholics and Protestants; still less by Catholics who tried to make any compromises with Protestantism.”

fatimacrusader.com/cr44/cr44pg18.asp

There are more examples von Hildebrand gives in the article, I just picked one.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

I don’t consider a strong love and devotion for the TLM and everything that usually goes with it such as altar rails, communion on the tongue, churches that look Catholic, Gregorian chant, etc. to be radically traditional. I consider it to be normal.

Amen! As do the rest of us normal Catholics.

 

[4HisChurch]

Talk about confusing. The nuns use to cover their entire bodies, head to toe, as Brides of Christ. In 5th grade the habits were gone and it was shocking not to see the differences between a lay teacher and a nun. Everything, that looked Catholic, smelled Catholic (the incense went out the door too), sounded Catholic was changed, almost overnight.

Adult catechesis, stopped as well. No more classes to continue to TEACH the faithful what the Catholic church taught. Confessionals use to be open all morning and afternoon, all day Saturday long. Then the doors closed on that as well and you were lucky to find a confessional that was open more than 15 minutes before the new 5 pm Saturday anticipated mass. Devotions literally ceased in many parishes (not all). No more May crownings, no more Corpus Christi processions, no more Mother of Perpetual Help devotions. Gone. Catholic life, as I knew it, was put under a bushel basket to be hidden.

Now go again and talk to the older Catholics and ask them if what I relayed to you happened to them. Many had the fight taken out of them. There was nowhere for them to turn, no one to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that they grew up with and loved. The mystery, the awe was silenced, so they just followed the program and maintained silence as well.

Fwiw…most TLM chapels, oratories, and parishes are thriving because of YOUNG families, families open to having as many children as God wants them to have. The pews are full and they are wanting to hand the traditions down to their children, as it has been handed down the them for centuries. They fight the good fight by being fruitful and mulitplying, by giving God what is due to Him for His Greater Glory. It’s refreshing to see this catching on and growing in Holy Mother Church.

Ask your priest if he offers Catechism classes for ALL the faithful. Ask him to educate the children beyond their confirmations, if they get confirmed at all, ask your priest to bring back the devotions to Our Lady and the saints. Ask your priest to offer the TLM. Tell him you want it all. See what happens when YOU challenge him. It’s usually VERY interesting!

You are right here. All of the sudden, it was all gone. Now, the “older” people who are left, are often the ones who, like myself, were raised mostly in the “new” way of doing things and many who are in leadership positions are vested emotionally in keeping things the way they want it.
By now, generations have been raised without catholic culture and spirituality at all and SO many families are crumbling spiritually because of it. I’ve seen it in my own family, including myself.
Its a horrible vicious circle–someone drops the ball, and kids are either raised without any Catholic Faith, or with an incomplete one. Then, by the time the parents come back to the faith–if they do–the kids have had precious time without it, and the parishes in the a
rea no longer teach it. Sending your kids to Catholic schools, or CCD, does no good at all, and, often does spiritual harm. By then,you are trying to play catch up and trying to teach your kids the faith (Baltimore Catechism style) gets eye rolls from friends, family, and parish alike half the time.
I think true Catholicism is so counter cultural, that the only way to survive it is to have a large family and be a culture unto yourself. Its too late for me to do that, though. May God have mercy on our souls.