Strange wording in the Bible and prayers

[fakename]

Does anyone else think that the bible is written oddly in some places and what do you think justifies one in interpreting these in one way or another way?

For instance, Jesus was talking about the rewards for those who give up earthly comforts and seemingly lists “persecutions” as if they are rewards (either present or future rewards).

Matthew 19:25 -"…and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come."

Was I reading it wrong, or did I miss some crucial punctuation or emphasis?

Same goes with some prayers.

For instance a spiritual communion sometimes says (paraphrasing) “may I be wholly joined to Thee”. But to be wholly joined to God would mean either no more you, or that you would become like Jesus which is ridiculous (or is it?). So it seems rather pantheistic.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Matthew 19:25 -"…and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come."

this is Matt 19:25

• When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, “Who then can be saved?”

could you check again for your citation?

 

[Pilgrim1701]

Could be Mt 19:29
29 And everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children or land for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much, and also inherit eternal life.
Seems to be Mk 10:30:shrug:
29 Jesus said, 'In truth I tell you, there is no one who has left house, brothers, sisters, mother, father, children or land for my sake and for the sake of the gospel
30 who will not receive a hundred times as much, houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and land – and persecutions too – now in this present time and, in the world to come, eternal life.
In any case it seems its the same incident with the rich young man:shrug:

 

[patrick457]

For instance, Jesus was talking about the rewards for those who give up earthly comforts and seemingly lists “persecutions” as if they are rewards (either present or future rewards).

Matthew 19:25 -"…and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come."

Was I reading it wrong, or did I miss some crucial punctuation or emphasis?

No, you’re reading it just fine. Jesus defines Christian existence in terms of promise and persecution. Following Jesus entails leaving behind and losing everything; Jesus assures that whoever does so will be compensated by God. Now over against these blessings stands the reality of persecution, which is what identification with Jesus and the gospel also entails.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Could be Mt 19:29
29 And everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children or land for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much, and also inherit eternal life.
Seems to be Mk 10:30:shrug:
29 Jesus said, 'In truth I tell you, there is no one who has left house, brothers, sisters, mother, father, children or land for my sake and for the sake of the gospel
30 who will not receive a hundred times as much, houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and land – and persecutions too – now in this present time and, in the world to come, eternal life.
In any case it seems its the same incident with the rich young man:shrug:

Thanks. Okay, here’s the NAB:

Jesus said, “Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel
30
who will not receive a hundred times more now in this present age: houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come.

OP: not much if any punctuation in the original Greek texts, so blame your translation. The NAB rendition above should make more sense to you. In this age we will have a huge family (the Church) and we will have persecutions. In “the age to a come” we will have eternal life with Jesus.

 

[jcrichton]

Does anyone else think that the bible is written oddly in some places and what do you think justifies one in interpreting these in one way or another way?

For instance, Jesus was talking about the rewards for those who give up earthly comforts and seemingly lists “persecutions” as if they are rewards (either present or future rewards).

Matthew 19:25 -"…and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come."

Was I reading it wrong, or did I miss some crucial punctuation or emphasis?

Same goes with some prayers.

For instance a spiritual communion sometimes says (paraphrasing) “may I be wholly joined to Thee”. But to be wholly joined to God would mean either no more you, or that you would become like Jesus which is ridiculous (or is it?). So it seems rather pantheistic.

…most of us usually paint a pretty picture about everything (specially when we are seeking the approval of others); Jesus makes a list of possible rewards but inserts a reality clause: those who follow Me will be rejected by the world to the point of seeking you out to hurt and even kill you… no sugar coating! Jesus wants His Disciples (and those who would follow) to know that they are not enlisting into the Kingdom of Heaven for temporal security (something so many of us love to, if not experience, at least hold in promise)… yes, God will provide, but Satan, though man, will do all he can to hinder Christ.

…as for the prayer… since our trek is to join God and God is Spirit, there is a moment when the creature will become as the Creator… the Fact the God has Revealed Himself in three Distinct and Individual Persons shows us that we will not be absorbed into a great cosmic pool of energy where one is all… oh… then there’s that challenge Jesus got where He told the people flat out: ‘…you do not understand Heaven, those who make it there will be as angels,’ angels, as we know, are spiritual beings separate from God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[fakename]

Could be Mt 19:29
29 And everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children or land for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much, and also inherit eternal life.
Seems to be Mk 10:30:shrug:
29 Jesus said, 'In truth I tell you, there is no one who has left house, brothers, sisters, mother, father, children or land for my sake and for the sake of the gospel
30 who will not receive a hundred times as much, houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and land – and persecutions too – now in this present time and, in the world to come, eternal life.
In any case it seems its the same incident with the rich young man:shrug:

Yeah well, I checked my citation and it seems to be correct. The point is, at the end Jesus seems to be comforting people yet mentioning persecutions seems to totally negate that comfort so I found it nonsensical and strange.

For instance, God seems to say that one will get 100 times the blessings plus 100 times the curses so as to totally blot out the blessings and render useless the incentive to actually renounce the world.

But again, perhaps it depends on the word that comes before “persecutions”. Sometimes the word is “and” and other times the word is “with”. Now the former word just conjoins the idea of persecution with blessings and doesn’t necessarily tell us why they are so conjoined, but the latter (“with”) can (on some interpretation) imply that because we are persecuted then we gain as much as we are persecuted (since on some interpretation “with” means “because” and not just “in addition to” e.g. with great strength comes great victories).

 

[jcrichton]

Yeah well, I checked my citation and it seems to be correct. The point is, at the end Jesus seems to be comforting people yet mentioning persecutions seems to totally negate that comfort so I found it nonsensical and strange.

For instance, God seems to say that one will get 100 times the blessings plus 100 times the curses so as to totally blot out the blessings and render useless the incentive to actually renounce the world.

But again, perhaps it depends on the word that comes before “persecutions”. Sometimes the word is “and” and other times the word is “with”. Now the former word just conjoins the idea of persecution with blessings and doesn’t necessarily tell us why they are so conjoined, but the latter (“with”) can (on some interpretation) imply that because we are persecuted then we gain as much as we are persecuted (since on some interpretation “with” means “because” and not just “in addition to” e.g. with great strength comes great victories).

…so you rather have Jesus sell a bed of roses and when the persecutions come… just do this:

…and claim: “soo sorry, I forgot to warn you about the kinks… good luck!”

…you could also check other passages such as:

18 If the world hates you, you must realise that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world, because my choice of you has drawn you out of the world, that is why the world hates you. 20 Remember the words I said to you: A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. 21 But it will be on my account that they will do all this to you, because they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come, if I had not spoken to them, they would have been blameless; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Anyone who hates me hates my Father. 24 If I had not performed such works among them as no one else has ever done, they would be blameless; but as it is, in spite of what they have seen, they hate both me and my Father. 25 But all this was only to fulfil the words written in their Law: They hated me without reason. (St. John 15:19-25)

Jesus seems to bring home important issues, regarless of how contrasting they may seem.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gorgias]

Yeah well, I checked my citation and it seems to be correct.

It’s Mark 10 – this past Sunday’s Gospel, right?

The point is, at the end Jesus seems to be comforting people

Context, context, context!

Jesus isn’t comforting people in general – he’s talking to Peter, who’s attempting to say that the disciples who have given up everything should qualify for eternal life. The ‘comfort’ Jesus gives has to do with eternal life (which is the context of the passage); the notion that things will be received in this life isn’t the focus of this story.

For instance, God seems to say that one will get 100 times the blessings plus 100 times the curses so as to totally blot out the blessings and render useless the incentive to actually renounce the world.

I don’t think that this is the intent at all. All during the conversation, the question is what it takes to be saved. In the case of the rich young man, Jesus says that he needs to “sell everything”. He can’t handle it, so he goes away. Jesus points out that it’s difficult for the rich to get to heaven.

Peter, then, wants to one-up the situation: he’s pointing out to Jesus that the disciples have already done this. But, he takes it one step further: it’s not just that the disciples have “sold everything”, it’s that they’ve “given up everything”! So, Peter isn’t asking “what about us?” – he’s telling Jesus “we’ve done what you’re asking, and more – so we definitely deserve heaven!”

Note, then, that Jesus’ response about giving up things is a response only to Peter’s contention about giving everything up. In other words, this isn’t something that everyone does – just something that Jesus’ ‘inner circle’ would do. Jesus’ response, then, affirms that people who “leave behind everything” will attain to heaven. But, there’s more to Jesus’ response…

My personal take is that Jesus is poking fun, and at Peter’s expense. Peter has just upped the ante, with his “leaving all behind” line, and Jesus’ response is that those who have given up everything will get 100 times what they gave up. (Pretty insightful, in the context of talking to the future bishops, eh? They gave up one family – and in return, they’ll have hundred(s) of families to take care of!) But, this is a double-edged sword: the families and households and farms that the apostles ‘inherit’ … they’ll come with their share of problems! (Also pretty insightful!)

So, it would seem that Jesus’ insight has to do with the life of his apostolic followers, and isn’t meant as a general-purpose prediction for the average Christian.

But again, perhaps it depends on the word that comes before “persecutions”. Sometimes the word is “and” and other times the word is “with”.

In the Greek, the word is μετὰ (‘with’). I’m not certain I’d agree with your explanation of what ‘with’ might imply here, though…

 

[Julia_Mae]

Yeah well, I checked my citation and it seems to be correct.

This is your OP:

Matthew 19:25 -"…and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come."

It’s wrong.

 

[riffer791]

Im thinking, In Acts 5:40 The apostles are flogged by the jews, but they rejoiced that they were considered worthy to suffer dishonour for the sake of Christ. ( or it actually sais for the sake of the name.) So maybe, Jesus is implying that for people who love Him enough to leave everything for Him. To suffer persecution for His sake is a reward in itself. You know what i mean? To accept persecution and suffering with the joy of being considered worthy to suffer for Christ, to be given the opportunity to offer our sufferings for Christ, and sinners is a gift, a reward. - now in this present time- and, in the world to come, eternal life.
makes sense to me.