Strategies for discussion on Purgatory (or purgatory-esque beliefs)

[NewAbdalMaseeh]

I have a close friend who is a rather fervent Born Again Evangelical Protestant, and a bit of an anti-Catholic to boot, which results in her being VERY concerned about by interest in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy). As a result, we’re often debating doctrine.

This week she raised the question of whether I believe in Purgatory. Now, I’m still trying to flesh out the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and I know many Orthodox strongly object to the doctrine of Purgatory. That being said, I do firmly believe that after death some believers who are not in heaven will have sins forgiven then (i.e. after they’re aready dead), and that they can be raised from their place of punishment or torment via that forgiveness (and I also believe that prayer for the dead is of value, and that intercession on behalf of departed believers can help along that aforementioned forgiveness). So, while I have yet to fully comprehend the Orthodox objections to purgatory, I figured that what I already believe is (A) not controversial within Orthodox theology, and (B) already “purgatory” from an Evangelical Protestant perspective, so, for the sake of keeping my reply simple, I just answered “yes, of course I believe in purgatory.”

Naturally, a disagreement sprang forth from that, so I would like to share the verses she gave, give my thoughts, and ask that others help with further comments (also, I later found out that much, though not all, of what she hit me with came from a book put out by Chick Publications, titled Answers to My Catholic Friends, as chapter 7 of that book is dedicated to purgatory).

In the past we have had discussions where I have claimed that the “Bible only” approach is logically inconsistent. With that in mind, I went straight for 2 Maccabees 12:44, knowing that she would complain that it is not part of the Bible. That caused us to segue into a whole nother debate on how obviously “Bible only” goes out the window in this case, as the Bible itself does not list the canon, therefore she has to appeal to some source or authority outside of the Bible to justify her canon. While this side discussion did not bare fruit, I do believe it is a valuable approach. The common objection is that purgatory is false because it is not explicitly justified by the Bible. Citing a book from the “Deuterocanon” creates a side debate about the Bible only approach (and, as an example, I was telling her that Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants all agree that “the book of Esther is the word of God,” but no where is such stated in the Bible, so, I wondered, does that mean the claim that Esther is inspired by God false?).

When we got back on track, she hit me with 2 Corinthians 5:8. She claimed this “apart from the body, before the Lord” formula proves that the second a person dies, their soul goes before the Lord, and then it is directly to either heaven or hell (no third option). I objected that she was importing a lot into the text that was not there. I said Paul was saying that he wanted two things: (1) to be separated from the world of the flesh, and (2) to be in the presence of the Lord, but that does not mean the second you die you go to either heaven or hell.

I hit her with 2 Peter 3:18-20, which I think clearly refers to Jesus, between his death and resurrection, preaching to people who died during the time of Noah. She started reading the footnotes and commentary in her NIV Study Bible, and said there are multiple interpretations possible, and because the foot notes said it is possible Jesus was just declaring victory to fallen angels, that’s all that is.

I also brought up the passage in Matthew 12, about sins being forgiven in the next world. She claimed it was symbolic language to make a point about the severity of blasphemy - it does not mean sins will actually be forgiven after death. (Needless to say, this answer frustrated me a bit).

 

[NewAbdalMaseeh]

Continued…

She hit me with Romans 8:1, which says “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”. I objected that this is referring to the condemnation of the law.

Then she claimed Revelation 20:15 shows that everyone’s fate is already written in the Book of Life. I objected that this passage is referring to the time of the Final Resurrection, not now. And I noted that Revelation 20 clearly makes a distinction between Hades and the Lake of Fire, and I asked her which is Hell, hades or the Lake of Fire? She said they’re two different levels of hell.

Then she hit me with Hebrews 10:17, which states that God will no longer remember the sins of the people. I objected that verses 19 & 32 give the impression he is addressing believers, and verses 26-27 states that they can still be punished for sin.

Then she hit me with the objection that the thief crucified with Jesus was told that he would be in paradise “this day”. I was not sure how to approach that, so I simply gave anecdotes about how focusing too much on that passage alone can be dangerous (e.g. the thief was not baptized, does that mean baptism is unnecessary? the thief did not profess belief that Jesus is God, does that doctrine matter? et ceter).

I hope others can help me, and give their thoughts and advice…

[Sorry for Daisy chaining my posts.]

 

[Linda_Marie]

Welcome to the forum. You have my prayers for your journey home.

A simple search on ‘Purgatory’ will show numerous threads. They are a rich source for thought and discussion.

In addition, there is the Catholic Answers Library. Just click on the link at the top of the page next to ‘Home’

And there is the Catechism:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1031

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

All who die in God’s Grace and friendship = the Saved

Still imperfectly purified: - Is anyone perfect in this life? If they are not, then some purification still needs to be done before they can enter Heaven since nothing impure can enter there.

1 Cor 3.10-15
“Thanks to the favor God showed me I laid a foundation as a wise master-builder mich do, and now someone else is building upon it. Everyone, however, must be careful how he builds. No one can lay a foundation othen than the one that has been laid, namely Jesus Christ. If different ones build on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, the work of each will be made clear. The Day will disclose it. That day will make its appearance with fire and fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If the building a man has raised on this foundation still stands, he will receive his recompense; if a man’s building burns, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one fleeing through fire.”

This clearly shows the fruit of a person’s faith being tested in fire. Good fruits are the gold, silver and precious stones that do not burn. Not so good fruits are the wood, hay and straw. The more ‘not so good’ fruits we have, the more burning we must endure. We are still saved, but we will have less (suffer loss) when we enter heaven than we could have had, had we only had less ‘not so good fruits’ and more good ones. There are more verses scattered through the NT that talk about being refined in fire, cleansed in fire.

 

[ryanoneil]

“[He] will not be forgiven either in this age or in the age to come.” Matt. 12:32. The phrase “in the age” (in Greek, en to mellonti) refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30; 20:34-35; Eph. 2:1). Jesus is saying that one can be forgiven either in this age (earthly life) or in the age to come (after death). Those who are in heaven (which is in the age to come) have no need for forgiveness, and those who are in hell (which is in the age to come) cannot be forgiven. Therefore, there must be another state in the age to come where we can be forgiven. This is purgatory.

Luke 23:43 There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

 

[With_Love]

I truly enjoyed a talk by John Martignoni, President of the Bible Christian Society. About the last 9 minute of the talk deal with the Scriptural Principles that deal with the doctrine of Purgatory. I hope it helps. John Gives a pretty good explanation.

download.biblechristiansociet…_the_bible.mp3

Enjoy.

 

[kepha1]

*A **killer ***proof for the Scriptural nature of Purgatory can be found by comparing Luke 16:19-31 with Luke 23:43. In Luke 16, Jesus speaks of the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the “Bosom of Abraham.” However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus’ death, Resurrection, and Ascension for this. Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven (“I go to prepare a place for you”), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, the God-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanity before the Throne of the Father. Rather, this “Bosom of Abraham” in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as “the Paradise of the Fathers” --the Garden of Eden, which was withdrawn from the earth; the Jewish equivalent to the Greco-Roman/pagan idea of the “Ellesian Fields” --a pleasant place, but part of Sheol/Hades/Death nonetheless.

Now, … To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " This day you will be with me in Paradise." Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " …in Heaven." …And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY. Rather, Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb! …Not rising until Sunday morning. …And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus’ soul spent that day AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol. …And, as John 20:17 hammers home for us, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL “not yet ascended to the Father.” So, the “Paradise” Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is absolutely not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace --saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediately enter Heaven.

http://www.catholic-legate.com/qa/purghist.html