Striking of the breast (Confiteor), bowing during the Creed

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johnmann said:
You’re also supposed to bow at the name of the Trinity, Jesus, Mary, and the saint for whom the Mass is offered. And you’re supposed to genuflect during the creed on Christmas and the Annunciation. And if you can’t kneel, the proper posture is to stand during the consecration and bow as the priest genuflects. So why is these rarely seen?
  1. People don’t know about it.
  2. The same reason people don’t say the responses during Mass. People are self-conscious.
But this a problem you can solve! Know the proper postures and do them. It’ll make others aware and less self-conscious. Even better, sit up front so everyone can see you. But don’t do it to boast. Do it because you have or want the proper disposition. I.e., penitence (the breast strike) or reverence (bowing).
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I have to sit up front or close to the front, as I am frequently an EMHC at our Ordinary Masses on Saturday Vigil. I learned all the proper gestures, and perform them. A lot of people (including myself) are unable to kneel due to age, physical problems, etc… so I stand during the Consecration. I have not held hands during the Our Father except once, standing next to a newly widowed lady – people on her other side did the same, it was a gesture of support for her, as she was weeping occasionally during the Mass, because it was her first time at Mass alone since the Funeral Mass.

Our Choir Director noticed how I follow all the proper gestures, which she also had learned years ago. She said since I began bowing during the Creed, standing for the Consecration (since I can’t kneel) and bowing when the Priest Genuflects after Consecration of both the Host and Chalice, that suddenly over half the Parish members are following me! (Especially the elderly and handicapped), but now it has spread through most of the Congregation. I didn’t realize so many people were watching me, but I have a position of doing the scheduling of all the other Ministers (Lectors, Ushers and Servers) so apparently people watched me! She is delighted that so many are following suit. (She’s off to the side and has to watch for the times to chant, or responsorials, so she is in a position to see most of the Congregation. She is delighted, which made me a bit self-conscious for awhile, then I decided that the Lord must have placed me in that spot deliberately. Glad I didn’t know about it for over a year!! Being an example can spread. They (Parish members) don’t especially consider me “super religious” (if they only knew!! I actually am extremely devout!! :D:) so they just think I’m doing what is correct and copy cat me!! LOL It’s working! If your Parish doesn’t do it, sit up toward the front, and others will start to copy you too! (Those who are able to kneel, are doing so, but they are also now bowing and following the other gestures) We still have a few who spread their arms or hold hands during the Our Father, but it is limited to a few families, especially holding hands with their small children (keeping them more under control is probably part of it, especially with 3 & 4 yr. olds!)
 
Cavaille-Coll said:
I have often wondered the same thing. Why is it that most people don’t bow during the Creed or strike their breasts at the Confiteor, which are called for in the rubrics, but eagerly hold hands at the Our Father and spread their arms like a game show host whenever they say “and with your spirit,” though those gestures are NOT called for.
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:yup:

Game show host…that’s funny! I agree. In our parish people do those things because they do everything the priest does, even the things are ONLY for the priest. You’d think we were all presiding. 🤷 So, they do most of the prescribed gestures, but they also copy everything the priest does in a “right back at ya” kind of style.
Can’t say anything though or they get all upset and defensive.
I try real hard not to get worked up about it, but I’ll admit, it bugs me sometimes.
I need to learn to concentrate on the big picture. :o
 
I wish they would bring back the Confiteor before Communion in times when it is not used in the Penitential Act.

While the priest is receiving Communion, the people (who are already kneeling) recite it and then the priest says the Misereátur & Indulgéntiam. I’d also prefer if they brought back the invocation of specific Saints and “tibi/te pater” but that’s another story.
 
Havard said:
Hi all.

I’m just curious if anyone has any insight as to why these gestures aren’t catching on at some parishes. Perhaps there’s a confusion over how to perform them?
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These gestures were in the old GIRM too. In parishes where they were not practiced before, they are probably not “catching on” now.
 
GangGreen said:
I wish they would bring back the Confiteor before Communion in times when it is not used in the Penitential Act.

While the priest is receiving Communion, the people (who are already kneeling) recite it and then the priest says the Misereátur & Indulgéntiam. I’d also prefer if they brought back the invocation of specific Saints and “tibi/te pater” but that’s another story.
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Yes, I miss the Confiteor too. I usually just say it silently. Our priest eliminated it because it makes the Mass longer (2 minutes, already!!), and just says the “Kyrie” but in English. What he doesn’t know (yet) is that our Parish has always done the “Kyrie” in Latin during Lent, we’ve done it for over 20 years, and probably for over 100, since our Parish is over 120 years old, and the Mass used to be in Latin, of course. Anyway, he’s going to get a surprise when Lent starts, I think. Others wanted the chanted Our Father continued, and he tried to make it spoken only. We simply chanted it anyway, then told him how much we love it. He did give in on that one. (He’s new here). I may mention the Confiteor to him, he prefers the other form, in which he simply asks for forgiveness and mercy from the Altar, which precludes having the Confiteor from all of the Congregation. I really miss it.
 
judynurse said:
Yes, I miss the Confiteor too. I usually just say it silently. Our priest eliminated it because it makes the Mass longer (2 minutes, already!!), and just says the “Kyrie” but in English. What he doesn’t know (yet) is that our Parish has always done the “Kyrie” in Latin during Lent, we’ve done it for over 20 years, and probably for over 100, since our Parish is over 120 years old, and the Mass used to be in Latin, of course. Anyway, he’s going to get a surprise when Lent starts, I think. Others wanted the chanted Our Father continued, and he tried to make it spoken only. We simply chanted it anyway, then told him how much we love it. He did give in on that one. (He’s new here). I may mention the Confiteor to him, he prefers the other form, in which he simply asks for forgiveness and mercy from the Altar, which precludes having the Confiteor from all of the Congregation. I really miss it.
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You mean the Kyrie in *Greek *:p.

Sounds like a nice parish though. It’s nice to see an OF Mass with traditional elements (the way it is meant to be).
 
GangGreen said:
You mean the Kyrie in *Greek *:p.

Sounds like a nice parish though. It’s nice to see an OF Mass with traditional elements (the way it is meant to be).
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Yes, sorry, the Kyrie was/is Greek, but I tend to think of it as Latin, as I originally learned the words as a child in Latin Masses back in the 1940’s and '50’s. Sorry! My goof.

However, I also like the OF Mass to include the traditional elements which have certainly been retained, but which some people either never learned (poor religious teaching?) or poor RCIA teachers, who don’t devote a lot of time to it, telling people to just attend Mass and copy others. They need to learn correct gestures, since you may very well copy someone nearby who does it wrong anyway.
 
I have to ask everyone, what does it matter what anyone else does? What I mean is, who cares? Why not just do what is right and forget what others do?

Personally, I don’t care if everyone there is drinking pepsi and eating popcorn. Sure, I’d rather have everyone paying attention and doing what is right but with the exception of my children, I’m not in control of what others do.

I went to a parish a few months ago where they don’t do any of that stuff. I’m sure I was the only one in the Church who knelt. It didn’t matter to me one way or another what others did. My eyes were shut in prayer part of the time I was reading along with the Mass in my missal so I hardly noticed anyway.

-Tim-
 
Bballer32 said:
In my honest opinion, I think there are 3 reasons why people are not doing these and other gestures that should be enforced throughout the Mass:

1.) They simply do not know about the gestures or when they are to take place.

2.) They are simply lazy or just going through the motions and not thinking about the gestures at all.

3.) They know when to do the gesture, but are either nervous about being “religious”, nervous about what others around them will think, or nervous that those who are “religious” will judge them because the are starting to act “religious” (basically the same as what others will think.)

I personally do all gestures that I am aware of during a Novus Ordo Mass, which have increased my devotion and awareness of what is going on in Mass. I think it is important that we as Catholics stick to the gestures for deeper devotions just like the in the Latin Mass. The Latin Mass would not be the same kind of devotion without the gestures that go along with it.
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Agreed with everything (except that I like to call the Masses the “Ordinary Form” and “Extraordinary Form” :D)
 
phil19034 said:
Agreed with everything (except that I like to call the Masses the “Ordinary Form” and “Extraordinary Form” :D)
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So do I, as I get confused, and when people use the initials i.e., “EF / OF” it took me about a month to figure out what in the world they were talking about!! Hadn’t seen them shortened before and my Latin is about 60 years old, so I’m very much out of practice. Last time I regularly heard the Mass in Latin was 1965, and since then, mainly in English or Spanish, unless I watch a Mass from the Vatican, and I can’t really tell the difference between Latin and Italian in Chant on TV – they sound alike to my poor ear!
 
Havard said:
Thank you - everything you say makes sense and I’m inclined to agree, but Cavaille-Coll’s comment about other gestures raises an interesting question. If prescribed gestures aren’t done because people are self-conscious, how did several non-prescribed gestures ever catch on?
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Because people are self-conscious about NOT doing it. When you have an entire family of 5 doing it the pew in front of you, then you feel the pressure to do it. But you are not always going to see the people in front of you tapping 3 times on their chests; nor always notice someone who only bows their head.

I think people infer actions as something the priest is asking us to do based on his actions. I’ve noticed that not all the priests bow during the Creed themselves.

Finally, I visited one Church for Christmas Eve Mass. Most people did tap their chests and bow because the Pastor over-emphasizes it when he taps and bows. So it’s obvious to the people in the pew that they should do the same. (NOTE: The same Church also holds hands during and raises after the Our Father.) So it goes to show, if the people in the pews will follow the priest’s lead.
 
Bballer32 said:
A lot of these non-prescribed gestures were formed out of a Charismatic movement after Vatican II. These postures like holding hands during the Our Father or raising hands during the Our Father or “and with your spirit” make the Mass seem more “interactive” and “fun”. To me, it makes the Mass seem more “Protestanty”. Do what is necessary during the Mass and the Mass will be “fun” or the kind of fun that I see it as 😃
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“and with your sprirt” is in the Extraordinary Form (but in Latin)
 
TimothyH said:
I have to ask everyone, what does it matter what anyone else does? What I mean is, who cares? Why not just do what is right and forget what others do?

Personally, I don’t care if everyone there is drinking pepsi and eating popcorn. Sure, I’d rather have everyone paying attention and doing what is right but with the exception of my children, I’m not in control of what others do.

I went to a parish a few months ago where they don’t do any of that stuff. I’m sure I was the only one in the Church who knelt. It didn’t matter to me one way or another what others did. My eyes were shut in prayer part of the time I was reading along with the Mass in my missal so I hardly noticed anyway.

-Tim-
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It’s up to the priest to enforce these things, they are not things that we can control, you are right. However, if we didn’t care what others do besides ourselves, then this forum wouldn’t have nearly the amount of posts on it, now would it? Plus, there’s nothing wrong with the desire for reverence all around you in Mass not just of yourself. If we feel that the Lord deserves our complete respect and reverence, then the environment around us should reflect that as well. Our worship tends to extend into our everyday lives.
 
GangGreen said:
It’s up to the priest to enforce these things, they are not things that we can control, you are right. However, if we didn’t care what others do besides ourselves, then this forum wouldn’t have nearly the amount of posts on it, now would it? Plus, there’s nothing wrong with the desire for reverence all around you in Mass not just of yourself. If we feel that the Lord deserves our complete respect and reverence, then the environment around us should reflect that as well. Our worship tends to extend into our everyday lives.
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Driving traffic on CAF isn’t a good reason to care.

I want reverence too, but can barely get out of bed on time, and I’m not about to loose sleep over what other people do or don’t do at Mass. That’s just the reality of the situation.

Anyway, I can point to exceptions but we are real reverent here in the deep south. Almost every parish that I have been to does these things - all the smells and bells. Even Lifeteen bows at the mention of the incarnation in creed and they all strike their breasts at the confiteor at my parish.

-Tim-
 
Some other aspects of the problem of poor catechesis in this area.

I searched YouTube for a video on gestures in the Catholic Mass, but could not find one that I would regard as relevant.

An article on “Postures and Gestures at Mass” does not mention that “A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honour Mass is being celebrated.” (GIRM 275a). It is at usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/postures-and-gestures-at-mass.cfm

Some parts of the recent Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium that may point to solutions:

“We need to remember that all religious teaching ultimately has to be reflected in the teacher’s way of life, which awakens the assent of the heart by its nearness, love and witness.” (n. 42).

“In response, we need to provide an education which teaches critical thinking and encourages the development of mature moral values.” (n. 64)

“Growing numbers of parents do not bring their children for baptism or teach them how to pray.” (n. 70).

“The spirit of love which reigns in a family guides both mother and child in their conversations; therein they teach and learn, experience correction and grow
in appreciation of what is good.” (n. 139).

“140. This setting, both maternal and ecclesial, in which the dialogue between the Lord and his people takes place, should be encouraged by the closeness of the preacher, the warmth of his tone of voice, the unpretentiousness of his manner of speaking, the joy of his gestures.”

“81. At a time when we most need a missionary dynamism which will bring salt and light to the world, many lay people fear that they may be asked to undertake some apostolic work and they seek to avoid any responsibility that may take away from their free time. For example, it has become very difficult today to find trained parish catechists willing to persevere in this work for some years.”
 
I have never been to mass when these weren’t performed by most everyone in attendance.
 
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