Striking of the breast (Confiteor), bowing during the Creed

[InspiritCarol]

I have to sit up front or close to the front, as I am frequently an EMHC at our Ordinary Masses on Saturday Vigil. I learned all the proper gestures, and perform them.

I was going to suggest this, but here you’ve done it for me. Thanks.

A lot of people (including myself) are unable to kneel due to age, physical problems, etc… so I stand during the Consecration…

This is absolutely the correct way to do this but, because I discovered I was confusing people, I (this is just me, mind you- I’m not saying you should), I sit on the edge of the pew and lean down as far as my knees will let me.

… If your Parish doesn’t do it, sit up toward the front, and others will start to copy you too! (Those who are able to kneel, are doing so, but they are also now bowing and following the other gestures)

I discovered the truth in this when I accidently stood up as the priest was saying "Blessed are you God of all creation … etc. and, alas, the rest of the congregation stood up with me. I realized my mistake when the words "Blessed be God forever " were leaving my lips.
We all had a good laugh about it later.

We still have a few who spread their arms or hold hands during the Our Father, but it is limited to a few families, especially holding hands with their small children (keeping them more under control is probably part of it, especially with 3 & 4 yr. olds!)

Our tiny little parish is very proud of their hand holding. I stand to the side and firmly clasp my hands together. This does not deter most, so if I’m feeling petulant, I then usually cough in my hands or just hold a Kleenex so it’s hanging out.

I love that people want to feel connected that way, it’s sweet and so rare now-a-days. However, I, personally am feeling called to not hold hands. It’s causing strife.

Let’s all do our best to kick strife to the curb.
It goes without saying that crying widows and children need their hands held as much as possible … period.

 

[InspiritCarol]

You’re also supposed to bow at the name of the Trinity, Jesus, Mary, and the saint for whom the Mass is offered. And you’re supposed to genuflect during the creed on Christmas and the Annunciation. And if you can’t kneel, the proper posture is to stand during the consecration and bow as the priest genuflects. So why is these rarely seen?

1. People don’t know about it.

I have never heard this in all my life. I’m a cradle Catholic, regular Mass attender … but no, really.

Wow.

So thanks for sharing and thanks JohnLiburne for the GIRM reference.

 

[ProVobis]

That’d be me.

I don’t know what my problem is, but I still can’t memorize the Creed.

I knew they’d change it, so I never bothered with the English, except for the Apostles Creed. I memorized the Latin Credo in grammar school as many others did as well. Actually if you know Latin grammar, it is pretty easy to memorize, with all its “-um” “-am” “em” endings. unum, Deum, patrem omnipotentem, factorem, visibilium, omnium, invisibilium, unum, Dominum, Jesum, Christum, Filium, etc.

 

[ProVobis]

Unless the place is ultra up-to-date and has a wide screen digital video monitor displaying the prompts.

With that bouncing ball over the right syllable?

 

[judynurse]

I knew they’d change it, so I never bothered with the English, except for the Apostles Creed. I memorized the Latin Credo in grammar school as many others did as well. Actually if you know Latin grammar, it is pretty easy to memorize, with all its “-um” “-am” “em” endings. unum, Deum, patrem omnipotentem, factorem, visibilium, omnium, invisibilium, unum, Dominum, Jesum, Christum, Filium, etc.

UMMMM. You just lost me!! My Latin is terrible now. I only can recite the Kyrie, which is pretty simple and the response “et cum spiritu tuo” or however I should be spelling it! But, I finally have learned most of the Creed, the new one that is, and have no problem with the first half, or the last paragraph or so. It’s the in-between parts, which I thought I knew, which now goes right out of my head when I don’t read it. I often read it at Mass from the Missalette, because I want to say it correctly. Never had the Gloria memorized and suddenly realized last week that I can recite it perfectly at Mass, and not at all at home! LOL Getting gray in the brain too, I suspect!

 

[ProVobis]

UMMMM. You just lost me!! My Latin is terrible now. I only can recite the Kyrie, which is pretty simple and the response “et cum spiritu tuo” or however I should be spelling it! But, I finally have learned most of the Creed, the new one that is, and have no problem with the first half, or the last paragraph or so. It’s the in-between parts, which I thought I knew, which now goes right out of my head when I don’t read it. I often read it at Mass from the Missalette, because I want to say it correctly.

Sorry if I confused you. Actually there are slightly different ways of translating it. Here is an interlinear translation, not the current translation though, but shows the connection between the Latin and English.

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem,
I believe in one God, Father almighty,

factorem cæli et terræ,
maker of heaven and earth,

visibilium omnium, et invisibilium.
visible all, and invisible.

Et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum,
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,

Filium Dei unigenitum.
Son of God only begotten.

Et ex Patre natum ante omnia sæcula.
And from Father born before all ages.

Deum de Deo, lumen de lumine,
God from God, light from light,

Deum verum de Deo vero.
God true from God true.

Genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patris:
Born, not made, consubstantial to Father:

per quem omnia facta sunt.
through Whom all things were made.

Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem
Who for us men, and for our salvation

descendit de cælis.
descended from Heaven.

Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine:
And he became flesh by Spirit Holy from Mary Virgin:

et homo factus est.
and man he was made.

Crucifixus etiam pro nobis:
He was crucified also for us

sub Pontio Pilato passus, et sepultus est.
under Pontius Pilate suffered, and was buried.

Et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas.
And he resurrected on third day, according to Scriptures.

Et ascendit in cælum: sedet ad dexteram Patris.
And he ascended to Heaven: he sits at right hand of Father.

Et iterum venturus est cum gloria
And again he will come with glory

judicare vivos et mortuos:
to judge living and dead:

Cujus regni non erit finis.
Whose reign not will end.

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum, et vivificantem,
And in Spirit Holy, Lord, and life-giver,

qui ex Patre, Filioque procedit.
Who from Father, and Son proceeds.

Qui cum Patre, et Filio
Who with Father, and Son

simul adoratur et conglorificatur:
at the same time is adored and is glorified with:

qui locutus est per Prophetas.
Who spoke through Prophets.

Et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam.
And One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum.
I profess one Baptism for remission of sins.

Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum.
And I expect resurrection of dead.

Et vitam venturi sæculi.
And life of coming world.

Amen.
Amen.

 

[FrDavid96]

Hi all.

I’m just curious if anyone has any insight as to why these gestures aren’t catching on at some parishes. Perhaps there’s a confusion over how to perform them?

Hmmm…

Interesting here.

At first, I found the question about the Confiteor a bit strange because I thought to myself “everyone does do it, what’s the problem?”

As I read through this thread, I realized something. I always use the Confiteor at Mass. Always. The only exception being the Easter Vigil of course (and Easter morning, I do the sprinkling). Sunday Mass, daily Mass, Holy Days, I always use it. My own parish is so accustomed to it, that no reminder is ever necessary.

On the other hand, I can see now (from reading here) that if other parishes don’t use the Confiteor very often, or if the priests use the “other forms” of the Penitential Rite (are they even in the corrected Roman Missal? I never bothered to look…note to self: check on this) then we would likely notice a corresponding lack of familiarity with the practice of striking the breast. I can imagine that in parishes where it’s done often, people do the gesture; while in parishes where it’s done rarely, they don’t know what to do.

I have snuck some glances during the Creed, and as far as I can tell, most of my own parish does bow at the right time (not necessarily at exactly the right words). I think that part is attributed to the fact that I make a “point” of bowing myself (meaning that I go as low as I can while still being within the rubrics) precisely because I want to “set the example”–so maybe it’s working.

On the other hand, at the Annunciation and Christmas, when we are all expected to genuflect instead of bow…well, that’s just a complete disaster every year, no matter what I say or do.

 

[judynurse]

We have always had the Confiteor == always. Until our new priest came. He is trying to make certain that even Vigil and Sunday Masses never go beyond 1 hour, and usually 50 - 55 minutes. So he is using (I think it’s Form #3) instead of the Confiteor. I’m absolutely lost. He has also cut a lot of other parts to speaking instead of sung or chanted. We finally got the sung/chanted Our Father back in Mass. He uses no Latin at all (although he knows several languages, including Latin). We already know he wants the “Kyrie” in English only, but we did manage to finally get him back to chanting it. Hymns are to be a maximum of 2 lines only, even for Christmas. We always do the Kyrie in Latin in our Ordinary Form Masses during Lent, and he thinks we shouldn’t. It has been a long tradition here. But we really miss the Confiteor. All of us feel like something is missing.

He also has the gifts of Wine and Bread brought up first, THEN we have the collection. He says it “moves things along better”. Actually, it takes several minutes longer. Most of us are lost with this “shortening of the way”. We’re not happy, but we are trying to be respectful and follow his directions. Unfortunately, we’ve gone from almost every seat filled to less than 30 people last weekend. It’s sad – they’re going to other parishes, even when the weather is icy.

 

[Megan7]

Sorry if I confused you. Actually there are slightly different ways of translating it. Here is an interlinear translation, not the current translation though, but shows the connection between the Latin and English.

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem,
I believe in one God, Father almighty,

factorem cæli et terræ,
maker of heaven and earth,

visibilium omnium, et invisibilium.
visible all, and invisible.

Et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum,
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,

Filium Dei unigenitum.
Son of God only begotten.

Et ex Patre natum ante omnia sæcula.
And from Father born before all ages.

Deum de Deo, lumen de lumine,
God from God, light from light,

Deum verum de Deo vero.
God true from God true.

Genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patris:
Born, not made, consubstantial to Father:

per quem omnia facta sunt.
through Whom all things were made.

Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem
Who for us men, and for our salvation

descendit de cælis.
descended from Heaven.

Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine:
And he became flesh by Spirit Holy from Mary Virgin:

et homo factus est.
and man he was made.

Crucifixus etiam pro nobis:
He was crucified also for us

sub Pontio Pilato passus, et sepultus est.
under Pontius Pilate suffered, and was buried.

Et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas.
And he resurrected on third day, according to Scriptures.

Et ascendit in cælum: sedet ad dexteram Patris.
And he ascended to Heaven: he sits at right hand of Father.

Et iterum venturus est cum gloria
And again he will come with glory

judicare vivos et mortuos:
to judge living and dead:

Cujus regni non erit finis.
Whose reign not will end.

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum, et vivificantem,
And in Spirit Holy, Lord, and life-giver,

qui ex Patre, Filioque procedit.
Who from Father, and Son proceeds.

Qui cum Patre, et Filio
Who with Father, and Son

simul adoratur et conglorificatur:
at the same time is adored and is glorified with:

qui locutus est per Prophetas.
Who spoke through Prophets.

Et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam.
And One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum.
I profess one Baptism for remission of sins.

Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum.
And I expect resurrection of dead.

Et vitam venturi sæculi.
And life of coming world.

Amen.
Amen.

Thank you PV.

 

[Joshua_Shorter]

That’s awesome. I would love to be able to say that. May I ask where you’re from generally?

Absolutely. Wichita, KS. We have a very strong Catholic presence in this area, no doubt.

However, in the past year I have attended mass in the following places:
Branson, MO
Grove, OK
Chicago, IL
Buffalo, NY
Burlington, VT
Kansas City, MO
Dallas, TX
Atlanta, GA

I have never experienced the issues to which you’re referring in any of those places, either. Maybe I’ve just been lucky or haven’t been paying close enough attention.

 

[Havard]

Hmmm…

Interesting here.

At first, I found the question about the Confiteor a bit strange because I thought to myself “everyone does do it, what’s the problem?”

As I read through this thread, I realized something. I always use the Confiteor at Mass. Always. The only exception being the Easter Vigil of course (and Easter morning, I do the sprinkling). Sunday Mass, daily Mass, Holy Days, I always use it. My own parish is so accustomed to it, that no reminder is ever necessary.

On the other hand, I can see now (from reading here) that if other parishes don’t use the Confiteor very often, or if the priests use the “other forms” of the Penitential Rite (are they even in the corrected Roman Missal? I never bothered to look…note to self: check on this) then we would likely notice a corresponding lack of familiarity with the practice of striking the breast. I can imagine that in parishes where it’s done often, people do the gesture; while in parishes where it’s done rarely, they don’t know what to do.

I have snuck some glances during the Creed, and as far as I can tell, most of my own parish does bow at the right time (not necessarily at exactly the right words). I think that part is attributed to the fact that I make a “point” of bowing myself (meaning that I go as low as I can while still being within the rubrics) precisely because I want to “set the example”–so maybe it’s working.

On the other hand, at the Annunciation and Christmas, when we are all expected to genuflect instead of bow…well, that’s just a complete disaster every year, no matter what I say or do.

I think the regular use of the Confiteor could be part of it, but then again we do the Creed every Mass and it doesn’t seem like many are bowing.

 

[Havard]

Absolutely. Wichita, KS. We have a very strong Catholic presence in this area, no doubt.

However, in the past year I have attended mass in the following places:
Branson, MO
Grove, OK
Chicago, IL
Buffalo, NY
Burlington, VT
Kansas City, MO
Dallas, TX
Atlanta, GA

I have never experienced the issues to which you’re referring in any of those places, either. Maybe I’ve just been lucky or haven’t been paying close enough attention.

I live in the Archdiocese of San Francisco, and visit Philadelphia a lot. I moved from the Diocese of Arlington (VA) about two years ago, and when I lived there, performing these gestures was the norm, which is why I think I notice a difference now.

 

[Elizium23]

On the other hand, at the Annunciation and Christmas, when we are all expected to genuflect instead of bow…well, that’s just a complete disaster every year, no matter what I say or do.

Yeah, and it seems to be getting worse, as I thought the rubric was abolished because all the hand missals I consulted didn’t mention the genuflection anymore. But it’s still there in the GIRM. At my visiting parish, where I customarily attend for Christmas, at Mass During the Night the associate pastor broke into the recitation to request that we all pause… but didn’t mention kneeling, so it was kind of a train wreck while some people who weren’t listening continued the recitation, and some stopped, and we all kind of looked around confused, while I knelt…

Another really obscure rubric is that of bowing the head for the mention of names. Jesus, Mary, Holy Trinity, and the saint being commemorated. Very low participation in every Mass I’ve ever attended. And I think the root of the problem in all these cases is religious formation of children. Most of us grow up with the Mass and we learn it by rote and oral tradition, from our families and catechists, so it is up to pastors to ensure that parents and teachers understand the Mass well enough to teach it accurately.

I’m not so familiar with the EF, but I guess since the OF is more participatory that there’s more for the faithful to need to know, while the EF has all kinds of intricate rubrics for the priest to follow.

 

[janeway529]

I think the regular use of the Confiteor could be part of it, but then again we do the Creed every Mass and it doesn’t seem like many are bowing.

The funny/sad part about the Nicene Creed I’ve observed is that some priests actually don’t have the new translation memorized, so you’ll have him leading the congregation in the first few words and then you’ll hear his voice fade as he reaches for his cheat sheet. Usually by the time he finds his place on the sheet, the congregation is past the part where the bow is supposed to take place.

I do know of some parishes where the priest/cantor/lector who leads the Creed will immediately stop at the bowing part and make an announcement to bow. If this happens every week, then people become accustomed and follow the practice when it is no longer done so obviously.

 

[retire_early]

:yup:

Game show host…that’s funny! I agree. In our parish people do those things because they do everything the priest does, even the things are ONLY for the priest. You’d think we were all presiding. So, they do most of the prescribed gestures, but they also copy everything the priest does in a “right back at ya” kind of style.
Can’t say anything though or they get all upset and defensive.
I try real hard not to get worked up about it, but I’ll admit, it bugs me sometimes.
I need to learn to concentrate on the big picture.

That’s why I’ve started sitting up front–trying to keep focused.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

These are all done by the majority of parishioners in my parish. I recommend the those who don’t see them done as their priest about it. And become involved in teaching CCD or helping with RCIA, so that they can help others know about and understand these gestures.

Edit: this is Arlington diocese where another poster mentioned it was the norm. Not sure if we are considered the South according to Tim’s definition, but we are very orthodox and orthopraxis as well.

 

[Havard]

The funny/sad part about the Nicene Creed I’ve observed is that some priests actually don’t have the new translation memorized, so you’ll have him leading the congregation in the first few words and then you’ll hear his voice fade as he reaches for his cheat sheet. Usually by the time he finds his place on the sheet, the congregation is past the part where the bow is supposed to take place.

I do know of some parishes where the priest/cantor/lector who leads the Creed will immediately stop at the bowing part and make an announcement to bow. If this happens every week, then people become accustomed and follow the practice when it is no longer done so obviously.

I never had the old translation memorized. I suspect it could be learning disability-related, but I’m not sure.

 

[ProVobis]

I do know of some parishes where the priest/cantor/lector who leads the Creed will immediately stop at the bowing part and make an announcement to bow. If this happens every week, then people become accustomed and follow the practice when it is no longer done so obviously.

There is a Monty Python Youtube skit showing where such announcements/interruptions potentially could become part of the Creed itself to unsuspecting ears, so you don’t want to do this too often.

 

[TerryJT]

Not sure why some do not perform the gestures. Frankly, I hadn’t noticed one way or the other as gestures (or lack thereof) of others is not what I’m interested in when at Mass.

Nor have I noticed “eager” hand holding or “game show” like arm spreading. I do know that when we characterize such things with disdain and cynicism, we are not winning the hearts and minds of those who hold different personal preferences. I don’t think the rubrics indicate that those two things aren’t allowed, but I could be wrong.

 

[jjtc]

Hmmm…

Interesting here.

At first, I found the question about the Confiteor a bit strange because I thought to myself “everyone does do it, what’s the problem?”

As I read through this thread, I realized something. I always use the Confiteor at Mass. Always. The only exception being the Easter Vigil of course (and Easter morning, I do the sprinkling). Sunday Mass, daily Mass, Holy Days, I always use it. My own parish is so accustomed to it, that no reminder is ever necessary.

On the other hand, I can see now (from reading here) that if other parishes don’t use the Confiteor very often, or if the priests use the “other forms” of the Penitential Rite (are they even in the corrected Roman Missal? I never bothered to look…note to self: check on this) then we would likely notice a corresponding lack of familiarity with the practice of striking the breast. I can imagine that in parishes where it’s done often, people do the gesture; while in parishes where it’s done rarely, they don’t know what to do.

I have snuck some glances during the Creed, and as far as I can tell, most of my own parish does bow at the right time (not necessarily at exactly the right words). I think that part is attributed to the fact that I make a “point” of bowing myself (meaning that I go as low as I can while still being within the rubrics) precisely because I want to “set the example”–so maybe it’s working.

On the other hand, at the Annunciation and Christmas, when we are all expected to genuflect instead of bow…well, that’s just a complete disaster every year, no matter what I say or do.

My Parish always does “Formula C” of the Penitential Rite on Sundays. The Confiteor is only used in daily masses. Not my preferred choice, but c’est la vie…