Strong arguments against Christopher West's marriage/sexuality books

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I know, it’s almost like women are unique, thinking people who can look at a set of facts, an idea, or an argument, evaluate it, and draw their own conclusions. Go figure. :rolleyes:
Can you please explain to me how a woman can be a misogynist?
 
Lol I loved Mrs. Von Hildebrand’s moniker for West: “Sex Enthusiast”. I think I’ll start calling him that from now on.

Okay so after finishing that great essay, I realize that things like this are why I generally stay away from apologists without a formal training in an accredited institution. I mean there are some good exceptions (Jimmy Akin comes to mind, maybe C.S. Lewis too), but without some good training, you just are going to eventually be led astray.
 
Not really, some posters ITT who are pro-anal sex seem to think one could only oppose it because of an emotionally aversion to it because it’s “icky”.

Given that this is a common attack against women, i.e. that they don’t think logically but emotionally, I found it funny that Alice von Hildebrand seems to be the recipient of this attack for opposing anal sex.
Interesting…

I had the complete opposite view. The people who seem to be invoking the “mysoginist card” (who I thought you were referring to) are the ones who say that anal sex is inherently degrading to women. But as is noted by other posters, not all women feel this way.

Perhaps it is unhelpful then to use a term like mysoginy here and stick to discussing principles.

(And yes, frankly, IMO von Hildebrand’s reasoning seems to be reducable to little more than the “it’s icky” argument, but people interpret her work and the strength of it quite differently, which was after all the point of this thread.)
 
Not really, some posters ITT who are pro-anal sex seem to think one could only oppose it because of an emotionally aversion to it because it’s “icky”.

Given that this is a common attack against women, i.e. that they don’t think logically but emotionally, I found it funny that Alice von Hildebrand seems to be the recipient of this attack for opposing anal sex.
I’ve never said that’s the only reason a woman could be against it. Everyone has the things they like and don’t like, and they owe no explanations. But I have said that the claim that it’s sinful is unsupported.

I’ve also said that this discussion is degrading to both sexes. It makes men out to be perverse monsters for their (normal, IMO) desires, and women out to be victims in situations where they aren’t. It minimizes the woman’s choices and makes the man look forceful. This attitude is damaging to both sexes in different ways, and bad for couples.

I never called anyone a misogynist, though it is certainly possible for women to be so. But no one has said anything on this thread that would even point to such a charge.
 
Sexual actions in a marriage HAVE to Glorify God. God made your body God is present in the action. Sodomy is not Godly. It just isn’t.
What is a sexual action that glorifies God? I’m sorry, I’m not necessarily trying to get you to list off sex acts, I’m just trying to understand what that standard is. If you just mean procreative + unitive, then OK…

Secondly, in the same way, what is a “Godly” sexual act?
But here is my specific problem. If you cannot make the argument that anal stimulation is Holy, that God intends this to help procreate with Him.
Just so we’re totally clear here, you don’t believe that married couples have to provide theological foundation for every action they take in the bedroom, right? Because that sounds like a lot of work. 😦
But the problem arises in that in equality of sexuality it serves no purpose other than to make the woman submit and the man to dominate.
Aren’t there several threads on men as “head of household” that have established that it’s actually a good thing for the husband to be in charge and his wife to submit to him in all things? Something about men being wired to think while women are primarily wired to feel? Why would sexuality be an exception?
It is sinful. If it is not, please show me any situation in which this could be called Holy. That you would proudly stare God in the adoration chapel in the eye and say, Yes, Lord we invited you into our marriage and our union. With that act.:eek:
I’m having a tough time imagining doing that with any sexual act, even things that are perfectly licit. Am I really the only one that has a tough time imagining that? Even perfectly licit foreplay… no, I can’t imagine it.

I’m not saying that anal stimulation is the same thing as other kinds of foreplay though. I’m really not.
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Estevao:
Can you please explain to me how a woman can be a misogynist?
There are millions of Muslim and Christian women in this world. It’s not the same thing as hating women by any means, but surely many of those women are complicit in the oppression of other women due to their gender. Right?
 
Interesting…

I had the complete opposite view. The people who seem to be invoking the “mysoginist card” (who I thought you were referring to) are the ones who say that anal sex is inherently degrading to women. But as is noted by other posters, not all women feel this way.

Perhaps it is unhelpful then to use a term like mysoginy here and stick to discussing principles.

(And yes, frankly, IMO von Hildebrand’s reasoning seems to be reducable to little more than the “it’s icky” argument, but people interpret her work and the strength of it quite differently, which was after all the point of this thread.)
👍
 
Not really, some posters ITT who are pro-anal sex seem to think one could only oppose it because of an emotionally aversion to it because it’s “icky”.

Given that this is a common attack against women, i.e. that they don’t think logically but emotionally, I found it funny that Alice von Hildebrand seems to be the recipient of this attack for opposing anal sex.
Actually, I don’t think that Alice von Hidebrand IS under attack for being against anal sex. As I see it, she has “attacked” (or rather accused) another author of being FOR anal sex when that is really not a fair or accurate presentation of his position. He merely states that the Church has not forbidden it. (And she hasn’t) He goes on to state several reasons why it is not recommended sexual behavior for a Catholic couple. I haven’t noticed any Catholics on this threat saying that anal sex is a loving, self-giving act. Most seem to have a very negative impression about it.
 
From my reading of what is quoted, he is making it clear that a wife is not guilty of the sin of (completed) sodomy on the part of her husband, as long as she does not cooperate in it.

It is exactly the same logic that permits a spouse to have sex with a contracepting spouse, as long as their objection is clear.

So, if a woman came to confession to confess the sin of completed anal sex, the priest would assure her that if she did not directly cooperate in it, but passively accepted her husband’s sin, then she has not sinned herself.

And I see no reason to interpret this as a recommended action; merely a morally acceptable one.
How is that supposed to work in theory? Are we to believe that both are supposedly enjoying the foreplay section of the event and the woman has to then detect through some means the exact moment of the ejaculation upon which she stops feeling her supposed pleasure and makes an internal resistence to it? The reality is that the physiology of the area makes finalisation there likely most of the time. Anecdotally I know that the use of this practice is nearly always done to completion where its most pleasurable for the male… not as foreplay.

Jone’s confession guide is just one of many formulated to address the problems of the era they were written in. He revised it at least 13 times to address the flock at the time. Taken in isolation they simply don’t have any timeless merit. Jone was a priest in 1920s to 1960’s Europe and a time when women did just close their eyes and think of England. The womans experience was of very little importance to conjugal morality. Jone was renowned for looking for ways to signify reduced culpability in this unequal environment. According to this assessment “Jone provided a host of nervous conditions that diminished the agent’s moral responsibility: neurasthenia, hysteria, compulsive disorders, melancholia, hypochondria, inferiority, etc.”

usfca.edu/uploadedFiles/Destinations/Institutes_and_Centers/Lane/Events/documents/KeenanLecture7.2.08forhtml.pdf

Some other sinful things included…

To the Sabbath…Servile works are forbidden even though done gratis, as a form of recreation, or for some pious purposes. About two and a half or three hours of such work, according to its arduousness, is a grievous sin. Thus, operating a modern washing machine, which consists in putting the clothes in the machine, pressing a button, removing and hanging clothes, would be only a venial sin. He later acknowledged that indispensable housework is legitimate Sunday work.

He provided innumerable excuses for missing mass, including persons who cannot endure the air of the church (e.g., certain neurotic persons and sometimes pregnant women in the first or last months of pregnancy)…women and children who would incur the grave displeasure of their husbands or parents by attending mass….those who have reason to
think that by staying at home they can hinder sin; or who would suffer injury to their good name or possessions by going to Church.liii

and more of the ideas of the day espoused as sin by Jone…

“it is venially sinful to glance at the indecent parts of another of the same sex or to look at them out of curiosity,” “it is venially sinful out of curiosity to observe animals mating if no sexual pleasure is caused.”

“Touching animals indecently is generally not gravely sinful, unless it is done with an
evil intention or for a long time or until the animal suffers pollution.”

These are ideas that belonged to a time and place we have not a lot of familiarity with or proper understanding of the whys and whats of the culture. All of those things make a difference to how something can constitute a case of diminished responsibility in one era and constitute a moral offense in another.
 
There are millions of Muslim and Christian women in this world. It’s not the same thing as hating women by any means, but surely many of those women are complicit in the oppression of other women due to their gender. Right?
By Estevao’s logic, I could make any racist statements I wanted as long as I could find a rare black guy to agree with me that black people are inferior to white people.

That’s kind of a common theme on misogyny related threads. Men make outrageous claims about women and then say “How can you call me sexist? I found a few fringe women who agree with me!” Neverminding that it is the statement that matters, not who says it.
 
Not really, some posters ITT who are pro-anal sex seem to think one could only oppose it because of an emotionally aversion to it because it’s “icky”.

Given that this is a common attack against women, i.e. that they don’t think logically but emotionally, I found it funny that Alice von Hildebrand seems to be the recipient of this attack for opposing anal sex.
It’s not “pro-anal sex.” It’s more “not saying that foreplay involving the anus in any respect is inherently and under all circumstances sinful,” which is a very different thing.

I suspect that people who were actually enthusiastic about anal sex would find the Catholic version very disappointing.
 
Sexual actions in a marriage HAVE to Glorify God. God made your body God is present in the action. Sodomy is not Godly. It just isn’t.

But here is my specific problem. If you cannot make the argument that anal stimulation is Holy, that God intends this to help procreate with Him.

Everyone is just saying gee, where is this specific act done in a certain way explicitly forbidden.

But the problem arises in that in equality of sexuality it serves no purpose other than to make the woman submit and the man to dominate.

It is sinful. If it is not, please show me any situation in which this could be called Holy. That you would proudly stare God in the adoration chapel in the eye and say, Yes, Lord we invited you into our marriage and our union. With that act.:eek:
Ive already done that, and you responded by saying no women would ever want/enjoy that, so 🤷
 
Just so we’re totally clear here, you don’t believe that married couples have to provide theological foundation for every action they take in the bedroom, right? Because that sounds like a lot of work. 😦

I hope you’re up to date on your paperwork!

I’m not saying that anal stimulation is the same thing as other kinds of foreplay though. I’m really not.
 
Actually, I don’t think that Alice von Hidebrand IS under attack for being against anal sex. As I see it, she has “attacked” (or rather accused) another author of being FOR anal sex when that is really not a fair or accurate presentation of his position. He merely states that the Church has not forbidden it. (And she hasn’t) He goes on to state several reasons why it is not recommended sexual behavior for a Catholic couple. I haven’t noticed any Catholics on this threat saying that anal sex is a loving, self-giving act. Most seem to have a very negative impression about it.
Yes.
 
By Estevao’s logic, I could make any racist statements I wanted as long as I could find a rare black guy to agree with me that black people are inferior to white people.

That’s kind of a common theme on misogyny related threads. Men make outrageous claims about women and then say “How can you call me sexist? I found a few fringe women who agree with me!” Neverminding that it is the statement that matters, not who says it.
Yep, and leftists will usually say that anybody that disagrees with their ideology must be a “fringe” hack, never mind how credentialed they are. It’s like when Thomas Sowell or Ben Carson says something critical of the Obama regime, the Obama supporters just say they’re “fringe Uncle Toms”.
 
While the “ick factor” may not be easy to scientifically quantify, I don’t think it should be dismissed entirely.

I would be very interested in how many of these anecdotal men and alleged anecdotal women who are so hot for anal foreplay are in favor of chastity in general. How many’s sex lives are heavily influenced by the porn industry?

I’ve read quite a few threads on this issue, and I have to say, I’ve never seen any one singing the praises of booty love that also saw the importance of other aspects of the Catholic teachings on sex. The closest I’ve seen is “Well, it seems disgusting and degrading to me…but I can’t think of any way to subjectively quantify disgusting and degrading…so it must be okay…for some people…”

Here’s a thought. What if people are repulsed by the idea because it goes against our nature? There are people who are struggling with the inability to explain why the sort of acts in “Shades of Gray” are disgusting and degrading. We all know they are, but who are we to say so, if some fictional character swears she really likes it?

While I appreciate that it isn’t the most scientific or subjective argument in the world. I don’t think that “because-it’s-flippin-nasty!” should be completely discounted.
 
How is that supposed to work in theory? Are we to believe that both are supposedly enjoying the foreplay section of the event and the woman has to then detect through some means the exact moment of the ejaculation upon which she stops feeling her supposed pleasure and makes an internal resistence to it? The reality is that the physiology of the area makes finalisation there likely most of the time. Anecdotally I know that the use of this practice is nearly always done to completion where its most pleasurable for the male… not as foreplay.
If ejaculation is intended or likely, the act is immoral. Jones makes this clear.

What is being discussed is when ejaculation is not intended or likely. ie foreplay to proper intercourse.
Jone’s confession guide is just one of many formulated to address the problems of the era they were written in.
People who cite Jone’s are not (neccessarily) making the case that he is the moral authority on this issue. Merely they cite him to show that respected theologians hold this position, and receive nihil obstat and imprimatur on their work. They also cite him as a means to refute the idea that the aceptance of anal foreplay is a purely contemporary idea at odds with the default view widely held in the Church.
 
Hang on…who is being accused of “playing the misogynist card”?
 
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