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AnlytcPhil
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So you know more about what theological noncognitivists claim than they know about what they claim. I’m glad you’re bowing out of the discussion, because I have no idea how to talk with somebody who claims that.
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PRmerger
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God is that which nothing greater can be conceived.
Also, God the necessary, eternal, infinite, transcendent, immaterial, omnipotent, omniscient creator of the Universe.
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PRmerger
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If they are Catholic you ought to tell them that declaring someone to be in hell is above their paygrade.
Catholicism, even with all of her authority, has never taken it upon herself to declare someone to be in hell…and thus it’s rather presumptuous of a Catholic to do what the Church herself won’t do and proclaim he knows the citizenship of hell.
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AnlytcPhil
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Indeed the Pope says just that. A little Googling will show you that’s exactly what he says.
Charlemagne III:
No, no. The atheist must follow the morality principles set forth by Jesus Christ. Many Christians, probably Pope Francis, believes that Jesus’ mission on earth was to soften people’s hard hearts.
Charlemagne III:
Yes, indeed! This Pope is different from every other Pope, or maybe he’s more like the first Pope, more like Jesus.
Charlemagne III:
No, I’m a United Methodist. But I think we only differ by some rituals and fancy church doings, which are fine and dandy, but not what Christianity is all about. Christianity is about love for your fellowman. That’s what Jesus taught. It’s not “Jesus died to save me so now I can do as I please, and all I have to do is repent afterwards”. Most bad guys believe that Jesus died for their sins. That’s probably why they sin. Most all the drug cartels are Catholic.
Charlemagne III:
It’s sad to see Catholics thinking Pope Francis’ heart is too soft.
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PRmerger
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PRmerger
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Yes, Christianity is about love for your fellowman, and any denomination which proclaims this is proclaiming truth.
But, clearly, that’s not all that’s required to be a Christian, otherwise…
loving Muslims would be Christians, even if they deny the divinity of Christ.
loving atheists would be Christians, even if they deny the existence of God
loving pagans would be Christians, even if they worship things which aren’t God
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AnlytcPhil
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I am quite sure Pope Francis would say loving Muslims will go to heaven. Baptists actually believe that every one of the 6 million Jews who died in the holocaust went to hell, because Jews deny the divinity of Christ. Do you believe that? I certainly don’t. How can anybody believe they had hell on earth followed by hell in the hereafter? That’s too much for me to believe. If you believe that, maybe your heart could use a little softening.
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PRmerger
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Oh, to be sure a loving Muslim can enter into heaven–but only through Christ and his body the Catholic Church.
But let’s be clear: we are agreed that it’s absurd to say that a loving Muslim is a Christian, yes?
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AnlytcPhil
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That’s the famous definition of Anselm. Strong atheists would say the pronouns “that” and “which” refer to “God”, making the definition circular, i.e., God is defined in terms of God. They’d say it’s not a definition but just a trick way of writing “There is nothing greater than God”.
Strong atheists would probably argue that the only way anybody can learn the word “creator” is from cases of usage of “creator” from sentences of the form “X is the creator of Y” where X is one part of the universe and Y is another part of the universe. For instance, from such usage as “Edison is the creator of the electric light bulb” making it “One part of the universe labeled X is the creator of another part of the universe labeled Y”. So they would then say “God is the creator of the universe” is the same as saying “One part of the universe labeled God is the creator of another part of the universe labeled the universe”, and that makes no sense.
It’s like Catholic Father Rolheiser says here: ronrolheiser.com/the-ineffability-of-god/#.WHey5suM3Dc
“God is ineffable, unimaginable, and beyond conception and language.”
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AnlytcPhil
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Understood. However many Christians don’t take it to be ‘above their paygrade’ to know that the Douay-Rheims Bible says …No man cometh to the Father, but by me. – John 14:6
What do you think “not coming to the Father” means? Lots of Christians consider that to mean “going to hell”. They would say that to deny that would be to deny the Bible. I don’t think that way, and I don’t think you do either.
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AnlytcPhil
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Sure, they’re Muslims, not Christians. But the question is whether they can go to heaven without accepting Christ as their savior.
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. – Matthew 7:21 Douay-Rheims Bible
Can non-Christians do the will of the Father? Why not?
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AnlytcPhil
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I see the lady’s mouth going “Nope, Nope, Nope,…”. What do you think about these sites?
catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077
oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2015/12/pope_francis_offers_hope_to_fa.html
catholicvote.org/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-atheists/
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AnlytcPhil
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There would be no distinction if you define “Nature” as something intelligent. So the question is whether Nature is something intelligent or just a random process that after billions of years produces regularities. Nature accidentally hitting on one small regularity can trigger another small regularity. Then over billions of years the small regularities can add up to big ones.
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PRmerger
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Yes. That’s certainly not above our paygrade to say that.
Oh, no, Phil. I absolutely believe that anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus cannot be in heaven.
You cannot deny the words of Christ.
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PRmerger
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They cannot go to heaven with embracing Christ as the Eternal Logos.
How is it that you understand Christ’s words that no one can come to the Father except through Him?
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AnlytcPhil
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Do you believe that accepting Jesus cannot possibly occur after death upon the resurrection of a non-Christian? If so, what biblical justification can you give for believing that?
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PRmerger
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You do know that we Catholics don’t get our justification of our beliefs from the Bible, yes?
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AnlytcPhil
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Then where do you get them? From the Pope? But you don’t believe as he does.
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PRmerger
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We get them from Christ, through His Body, the Catholic Church.
And I absolutely do believe what Pope Francis says.
Atheists and Muslims *can *get to heaven.
But he doesn’t say what you’re saying he says. They must embrace the beliefs of Catholicism in order to be in heaven.
So how do you understand Christ’s words that no one can get to heaven except through him?
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AnlytcPhil
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I understand that Jesus did not say that one must accept Christ before death. Therefore accepting Christ and the beliefs of Catholicism, if that’s what’s necessary, after resurrection, is not ruled out.
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