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Liberalsaved
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She should be fired, perhaps followed by a speech on how the secular world works in a free country.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Revenge and Vindication.
When one creates an enemy by pushing them away and creating a terrible moment for them, one has to expect an enemy to retaliate.
Plus there might be a little martyrdom mixed in.
The cashier should have checked the item through. If she has problems with the morality of what is carried in the store she should take that up with management.
An employee that embarrasses the company over personal issues of what they sell by taking that morality fight directly to the customers is not a loyal employee. She is a paid servant for that business, a position she put herself into willingly. I am not impressed at her morality. An employer should expect his employees to do the job they were paid to do, and not to publicly attack the store that employs them while on duty.
Personally I think the girl should be liable for civil damages, although the store could never pursue it for the knee-jerk emotional reactions many would have in protecting the girl thus further trashing the store.
Christ hung around sinners all the time, so He had plenty of chances to publicly humiliate those who did wrong and chose not to. This girl is not a good decision maker for reasons of morality, although she might end up making a good politician.
Alan
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tamccrackine
Guest
As much as I can’t disern as to whether the young lady was haughty or if she was kind about her actions, I do have to commend her for making the choice she did… and she’s only 16. I can only pray she continues to hold that stand.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Keep in mind that when Christ said these words, he was addressing it toward those Church leaders who delighted in pointing out the sins of others. In Matthew 23, for example, we find the Church leaders taunting someone because they had not ceremoniously washed their cups. Jesus nails them to the wall for being openly judgmental about their “apparent” sins.
This girl would have been right at home among those against whom Christ directed those harsh words. Obviously she is trained well to be a good little soldier for them.
Of course I don’t know the girl personally, so I can’t say how culpable she is. Sure I suppose it could have been the first time the issue came up, and she could have been caught off-guard. If so, this marks a problem in the way we form our children spiritually.
Perhaps it seems harsh to imagine Christ speaking these words to her, but you who applaud her, please consider what we are saying. She is joining up with the mindset that Christ spoke against – if her behavior is reinforced then she will become fully mature in her ability to deserve these words:
Matt 23:
Jesus didn’t come to tell us that we need to fix each others’ sins of the flesh. People already had that one figured out. He came to empower their methods by teaching them to bear with one another’s faults in love and not making a public spectacle out of them. For some reason, people seem to think Christ is just an ultimately harsh tool by which to condemn sinners, rather than an instrument of peace to get the judgment out of our hearts.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Why is it that when we are correcting others, we only consider it wrong if we physically harm them?
The girl behind the counter judged this person as a sinner and exposed it in public, all the while showing her disrespect for her own earthly master, the person who signs her paycheck.
Of course, this alleged “crime” the person would commit, by your logic, is nothing to worry about. If they had been buying a gun and muttering convincingly about using it to murder somebody, it might have been a different story.
Is it a sin to buy condoms? What if this woman is doing pro-life scientific research on how leaky condoms are?
One of my sons is a bank teller. If he thinks a transaction is suspicious he reports it, but he doesn’t make a scene on the spot nor does the customer know about it. Imagine if he started saying to this customer, “I know what you are going to use this money for, so you can’t have it,” and to that customer, “I know how you made this money. I will not accept this money at this bank.”
I’m going to discuss this scenario with my children. Four are teenagers and two are younger. They are to know that they have my full blessing, having taken a job at a legitimate business, to perform their duties without shame or regret when the customers make choices they don’t personally agree with.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Some believe it is.
Some believe it is a sin to buy condoms.
Neither is illegal, and therefore neither is “objectively” wrong based on societal rules.
If you support a cashier for refusing a condom sale based on the fact that she stuck to what she believed, then you must support the vegetarian cashier as well. There is no moral difference except they may belong to a different formal religion than we do.
Alan
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JeffAustralia
Guest
Yes, fully aware that it’s a sin. Although a sin has to be a conscious act. When I was a protestant-reared agnostic, I used condoms. Have I, or will I, confess it? No. Why? I wasn’t aware. And neither was the customer in this case. Like most non-Catholics, she probably thinks the Pope said no condoms because he wants more Catholics to swell the ranks. That’s what most non-Catholics think! Yes, Jesus was blunt. But Jesus TAUGHT! He didn’t just dismiss people and treat them like garbage because they weren’t “in the club”. DID the customer gain any moral teaching? Did it bring them closer to God and the Church? Did it help her to turn away from sin? No! It made them, and others, think that Catholics were weird, and more determined than ever. Is that how we’re supposed to be?
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JeffAustralia
Guest
And was the girl haughty? Yes, indeed. Blunt and dismissive. And no, she admitted to doing it 3 or 4 times before. Her family went in later and monstered the poor manager, telling him he’d be sued for religious descrimination if they dismissed her too. Jesus LOVED/LOVES sinners. This girl and her family didn’t. They were simply being elitist. They strutted around the Church, attending two masses in a row, and hung around out the front before and after so they could collect back-pats and praise.
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AlanFromWichita
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Yes, this is exactly the type of behavior that earned Christ’s strongest criticism.
Why is it that when people act as people did before Christ came – judging each other and the like – they think they are serving Christ? For those Catholics “admonish the sinner” is their very favorite work of mercy, driven to do so not by love, but by judgment and pride.
Alan
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Rob_s_Wife
Guest
We don’t know that. I can say I believe such and such is wrong and I can’t participate in it. That is not neccessarily the same as saying I’m judging someone else. It’s much more a case of guarding my own soul.
And we are supposed to call attention to sins. Is it a kindness to leave them ignorant of their sins?
The spiritual works of mercy call us all to:
1. Admonisher the sinner.
2. Instruct the ignorant.
3. Council the doubtful
4. Comfort the sorrowful
5. Bears wrongs patiently
6. Forgive all injuries
7. Pray for the living and the dead
We don’t have an earthly master and even if it’s looked at that way - standing firm in our personal morals is not disrespectful to our employers.
What exactly did she do? I would like to see a link to the news article or something similiar. “Blunt and dismissive.” doesn’t sound haughty to me at all. Sounds like she just simply said that for personal reasons of religious conviction, she did not feel she could help with such a sale and directed him to another counter.
Yes, Jesus loved/loves the sinner. Actually He loves us all.
**However, He was well known to not tolorate sin too. Even got mighty angry about it a time a two and certainly was public about His opinion of it and those who persisted in committing sins. I recall the passage where He very publicly tells a man he has a greater chance of fitting thrugh the eye of a needle than getting into heaven. Bet that hurt the rich fellows ego a bit and made more than a few in the crowd think Jesus was a bit too uppity for an unemployeed guy off the street.
**I don’t know how exactly this girl spoke or behaved. So far it’s all speculation.
I will say that it could have been handled in a quiet and calm manner and the customer may have been just as furious. Some people are like that. The OP does say the girl admitted to having done this before and none of those people seem to have felt a need to go to the media over it.
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mike182d
Guest
Abortion is not illegal and therefore is not “objectively” wrong based on societal rules. Is that your position? Someone believing something is wrong has very little affect on whether or not it actually is wrong. Eating meat is not a sin and using a condom *is *a sin, regardless of how many people don’t think it is.
Are you Catholic at all?
You’re comparing apples and anthrax here. Something isn’t immoral because someone thinks it is; that’s terrible logic. Eating meat is consistent with God’s law but using a condom is in complete contradiction to God’s law and is inherently sinful *regardless of how many people disagree. ***Truth isn’t determined by a majority vote.
However…
If you’re willing to take this ludicrous position, if you support someone selling another a condom, then you must also support an abortion doctor who performs an abortion. Both are legal and neither believe what they’re doing is wrong.
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mike182d
Guest
Ah, an actual reasonable argument in this thread! Kudos, my friend!
I stand corrected in my generalization. Not all material cooperation is sinful. However, cases in which it is not sinful are those in which it cannot be determined if the item being used for sin will be used as such beforehand. For example, the purchase of a gun. There is no inherent evil in using a gun and, in fact, it can be used for just purposes such as defending one’s family and home from invasion. However, it can also be used to murder someone or rob a bank. Therefore, in order for the cashier selling a handgun to be at fault in material cooperation, he *must *know that the gun being purchased will be used for evil instead of good. If he has no way to tell, and then the purchaser goes out and robs a bank, the cashier would not be responsible for material cooperation because he just didn’t know.
A condom, however, is quite different. If it was birth control pills, the situation would be more difficult because it can be argued that the contraception is not being used in any way regarding children but rather to correct a disease or some other problem. The same cannot be said of a condom. The only use of a condom would be as contraception in the sexual act and so, unlike the gun or the contraceptive pill, the intent of use would not be unknown to the cashier.
To sell a person condoms would be sinful.
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mike182d
Guest
Included in that speech she should be told that its perfectly ok for the secular world to preach and impose their ideals of human sexuality in the name of free speech but it is completely unacceptable for a religion - Christianity in particular - to do the same thing.
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AlanFromWichita
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Rob’s Wife said:
So this girl behaved the way she did out of respect for her employer?
Yes she does have a master on earth. She has accepted money in exchange for a certain amount of her time, during which she has agreed to act as a representative of the store. We cannot have obedience to God if we do not understand the concept of subjecting ourselves to another person’s rules.
You make a good point, in that he changed the views of how people with a certain social status behaved. Your point addresses the fact that the employee, who is servant to the store and its customers, had the nerve to stand up and speak.Yes, Jesus loved/loves the sinner. Actually He loves us all.
**However, He was well known to not tolorate sin too. Even got mighty angry about it a time a two and certainly was public about His opinion of it and those who persisted in committing sins. I recall the passage where He very publicly tells a man he has a greater chance of fitting thrugh the eye of a needle than getting into heaven. Bet that hurt the rich fellows ego a bit and made more than a few in the crowd think Jesus was a bit too uppity for an unemployeed guy off the street.
The problem is that when Jesus speaks angrily, it is never against a person to tell them of their sins. When he does tell them of their sins, such as a woman at the well, he does so in kindness and with good wishes. The times he got made was for twits who thought they were better than other people and pounded others for their sinfulness while their own heart was driven by hatred, greed, and judgment.
In other words, it was when people ADMONISHED THE SINNER and/or tried to punish the sinner, that Jesus got most critical. He is trying to teach us that judgment in our hearts is every bit a wrong behavior as outward sins, and in fact hating one’s brother is the spiritually equivalent to murde.
We need to obey Christ and quit making our judgments by appearances and outward observances “lady buying condoms, bad. Girl who won’t let her, good,” (in my Tarzan/Jane voices) and pay attention to what is in our heart. Those who stick up for this girl inevitably has judged against the shopper.
I will not stick up for this girl’s behavior, but I will stick up for her. “Lord, forgive her for she knows not what she does.” Clearly if adults are this mixed up on what constitutes right behavior, the child cannot be expected to know any better and therefore I hold her innocent, though misled.
True. She was an accident waiting to happen. Just because you get away with bad behavior one time or twice, doesn’t mean you will be able to do it forever.
Of course, this girl got lots of earthly rewards, I’m sure. Fame, people all over the planet extolling her virtues, yes. This is one of the fruits of making a public spectacle over another person’s sins – you may bask in worldly glory. This is pleasing to he who is prince of this world, so if you behave this way you may bask in worldly glory. Goodbye grocery checker job, hello book deal!
Alan
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mike182d
Guest
No, that’s a horrible misinterpretation. Both letters to the Corinthians are simply Paul pointing out their sins and telling them they need to cut it out. Was Paul a “viper?” Would Jesus have scolded Him for doing so? Apparently not, as the Church sees fit to honor his letters as authoritative.
You seem to forget the actual charges made by Christ, namely: honoring God with their lips but not their hearts and placing undue burdens upon people that they refuse to do themselves. That sounds a lot more like modern day Democrats who honor God with their lips while promoting every secular evil out there and placing undue burdens on America by taxing them into oblivion to help the poor when they don’t pay a dime into those very same taxes.
If anything, the girl was more like St. Paul than a Pharisee.
Where in the Gospel does Jesus say its wrong to tell someone their sins? There are a *multitude *of passages in the New Testament that encourage us to do so. What Christ warns against is *judging *people and, thanks to liberals, we’ve managed to blend correction and judgement into the same thing and this is absurd. If my child thinks 2 + 2 = 5 and I correct her and tell her that its really 4, that’s not judgement. If I tell her she’s stupid for thinking 2 + 2 =5, *that *would be judgement.
Correction and judgement are two different things but we have become so oversenstive or scared to tell people the truth that we would rather sit back and watch someone wallow in their own sin then help them out of the pit their in because “we don’t want to hurt their feelings.”
That’s the furthest thing from Christ teachings.
You’re right. Its much better what we’re doing now: teaching them to be tolerant of everyone’s beliefs and never correct anyone in fear of rocking the boat. That’s worked wonders for the moral fortitude of our society.
Show me the passage where Christ condems this girl and I will give you plenty that support her. You’re misintepreting Scripture.
Yes, he did. Does “am I my brothers keeper?” ring a bell? Furthermore, if people have figured out that they need to fix their sins of the flesh, why is it that we’ve descended so far into sins of the flesh? With pornography as the leading industry in the world and abortion and pre-marital sex rampant, you give society too much credit.
Who made the spectacle? The guy could have quitely walked away to another register and the conversation could have just been between him and the cashier and maybe a customer behind him, no one would have to know what had happened (for all they knew he could have had incorrect change or something). The only person making a spectacle out of it is the person trying to buy the condoms by going to the press.
Why is it that embarassment is a worse sin than fornication? Let’s say this cashier and the guy buying condoms are dead and before Christ. Is Jesus going to be upset at the girl for embarassing the guy trying to buy condoms or is He going to be more upset that the guy was trying to fornicate and abuse His wonderful gift of human sexuality?
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mike182d
Guest
Scripture?
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Consecrated
Guest
Umm, this sounds more judgemental to me than what the girl is described as doing. If the girl was wrong to “judge” the person buying condoms because she can’t know the customer’s heart (as she can’t), then how is it right to judge the girl’s intentions through her perceived reactions to this brew-ha-ha?
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VonMrs
Guest
But Paul was speaking to BELIEVERS, people who had chosen to follow Christ. Where do we draw the line in what we force on other non-believers? Not going to mass is a sin. Should we go around berating non-Catholics for not attending mass on Ash Wednesday? God gave us free will. Who are we to manipulate the actions of others?
Here is what I see that this girls honorable options were, given her moral qualms about the purchase:
- Not take a job at the supermarket.
- Excuse herself during the sale and ask someone else to ring up the purchase.
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Consecrated
Guest
How can any person know this?
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Cupofkindness
Guest
Is there any difference between what this girl has done and what a pro-life pharmacist might do in refusing to fill a perscription for an aboritfacient, aside from the fact that the abortifacient actually takes a life? These are on the same continum. The problem with many Catholics is that they do not take a stand on issues that greatly offend our Lord and his Blessed Mother. Do not forget what Our Lady said at Fatima: souls are falling into hell. This is the reality that countless people will live forever apart from God unless they hear the truth. My guess is that what this girl did will ultimately bring that customer closer to God’s will about these matters, because she challenged his errant notions of sexuality. Whether she was proud or humble, and whether the customer was humiliated or not, God used her to speak to that individual about a grave sin.
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