Strong morals, or elitism?

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AlanFromWichita:
So this girl behaved the way she did out of respect for her employer?

Maybe. For all we know her boss agrees with her. Even if he/she doesn’t agree, it doesn’t equal disrespect.

Yes she does have a master on earth. She has accepted money in exchange for a certain amount of her time, during which she has agreed to act as a representative of the store. We cannot have obedience to God if we do not understand the concept of subjecting ourselves to another person’s rules.

I disagree. Working for someone does not make them your master any more than it makes you their slave. It’s nothing more than an exchange of business goods. My time in exchange for so many dollars. It certainly doesn’t put the employeer above our obedience to God.

The problem is that when Jesus speaks angrily, it is never against a person to tell them of their sins.

I disagree. The money changers comes to mind.
When he does tell them of their sins, such as a woman at the well, he does so in kindness and with good wishes.

Yes. But he also dismissed her and told her to sin not more. And he still made enemies for it, despite his quiet manner.
In other words, it was when people ADMONISHED THE SINNER and/or tried to punish the sinner, that Jesus got most critical. He is trying to teach us that judgment in our hearts is every bit a wrong behavior as outward sins, and in fact hating one’s brother is the spiritually equivalent to murde.

**Admonishing the sin doesn’t mean you hate the person. There is a difference between judging a sin for the sin it is and judging a person. I can look at another person and say that act is a sin and should be avoided. **I cannot look at another person and judge they are going to hell - that’s God’s job alone.

We need to obey Christ and quit making our judgments by appearances and outward observances “lady buying condoms, bad. Girl who won’t let her, good,” (in my Tarzan/Jane voices) and pay attention to what is in our heart. Those who stick up for this girl inevitably has judged against the shopper.

Nonsense. Buying of condoms IS bad. Girl who asked her to go to another line to do so is avoiding the condom/sin issue for herself, which IS good. How good, or not, a person as a whole (the condition of their soul) either of them are is unknown and not an issue.

Just because you get away with bad behavior one time or twice, doesn’t mean you will be able to do it forever.

**Again. I don’t know that she did commit any bad behavior. Just saying that I have a personal/religious aversion to doing something is NOT, in itself, a bad behavior. Now if she yelled or called this person names or said they were going to hell or somethng - THAT is bad bahavior and not to be permitted. **
**I’m saying it is okay to simply state that for religious reasons a person cannot feel comfortable entering into certain acts. **
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VonMrs:
But Paul was speaking to BELIEVERS, people who had chosen to follow Christ. Where do we draw the line in what we force on other non-believers? Not going to mass is a sin. Should we go around berating non-Catholics for not attending mass on Ash Wednesday? God gave us free will. Who are we to manipulate the actions of others?

Here is what I see that this girls honorable options were, given her moral qualms about the purchase:
  1. Not take a job at the supermarket.
    2) Excuse herself during the sale and ask someone else to ring up the purchase.
She had no right to humiliate the customer.
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*First of all, Ash Wednesday isn’t a Holy Day of Obligation even for Catholics.

*Second of all, Mass attendence requires our obedience because is it a mandate of the Church, and when professed Catholics willfully disobey, it is a sin of disobedience. It is a mandate because of the commandment “Keep Holy the Sabbath”. Contraception is intrinsically wrong. A person’s knowledge or lack thereof will decrease his personal culpability according to God’s judgement, but not make that action morally “neutral”.

*Third of all, it is not malipulating another’s actions (which is indeed wrong) to do what it seems like she did, it is guarding her own actions from a shadow of sin.

*Fourth of all, is what the girl did that much different from your second option?
 
Rob'sWife:
Again. I don’t know that she did commit any bad behavior. Just saying that I have a personal/religious aversion to doing something is NOT, in itself, a bad behavior. Now if she yelled or called this person names or said they were going to hell or somethng - THAT is bad bahavior and not to be permitted.
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Pre-cise-ly. Thank you for this good, simple, differentiation. 🙂
 
Consecrated said:
*First of all, Ash Wednesday isn’t a Holy Day of Obligation even for Catholics.

*Third of all, it is not malipulating another’s actions (which is indeed wrong) to do what it seems like she did, it is guarding her own actions from a shadow of sin.

*Fourth of all, is what the girl did that much different from your second option?
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I stand corrected on Ash Wednesday. I am a new Catholic! 🙂 Your point about something being intrinsically wrong is well taken.

I still think she should have handled the situation in a more respectful manner. I am not saying that she should have sold the condoms. I am saying that she could have gracefully excused herself from the situation without causing embarrasment to the customer. To clarify on your “fourth of all” question… It would have been less of a spectacle if she would have simply said, “Excuse me for one moment”, and then quietly went to get another cashier. Instead, it sounds like she basically said to the customer, “get out of my lane with your condoms”. (I’m not sure how it actually played out, but this is my impression.) The condoms were a problem for her, not for the customer. She should have found a way to deal with it without humiliating the customer. Perhaps she should have addressed the issue ahead of time with management to work out an appropriate way of dealing with such situations. Or, perhaps, she shouldn’t have taken the job!
 
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Consecrated:
Umm, this sounds more judgemental to me than what the girl is described as doing. If the girl was wrong to “judge” the person buying condoms because she can’t know the customer’s heart (as she can’t), then how is it right to judge the girl’s intentions through her perceived reactions to this brew-ha-ha?
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Exactly what I have been thinking in reading this thread. I am to accept that this girl may not “judge”, yet we may judge her. A bit circular.
 
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JeffAustralia:
We had an incident in our town recently. 16yr old Catholic girl working at supermarket (which sells condoms off the shelf, as is the normal these days) refuses to sell condoms to a customer, and tells her to take her shopping trolley to another checkout. Embarrasses the life out of the customer, and this all leads to a media circus and letters to the editor which make Catholics and our Church look foolish. Many seem to disagree with me, but I see morality as a personal thing and not to be forced on others. I’m sure the customer didn’t gain anything spiritually from the experience, and is probably even more determined not to become Catholic. Opinions?
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I agree with you. If the girl didn’t feel comfortable selling them in a store that does sell them, maybe she should change jobs.
 
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Joya:
JeffAustralia,
I disagree with the two posters who have preceded me (1ke & Rob’s Wife). Although I support the Church’s teaching on contraception, it appears this girl used the situation to express her moral superiority over the customer. I can only imagine the embarrassment and shame this customer must have felt–and there was no grounds for that whatsoever.

If this girl objected to ringing up condoms in the grocery store, she should not have accepted the job. This is the same reason I never worked for a video store as I did not approve of distributing pornographic videos.

This scenario reminds me of a call Fr. Mitch Pawca received on his EWTN show a couple of years ago. A postal carrier expressed his dilemma regarding the delivery of pornographic magazines such as Playboy into people’s mailboxes. Fr. Mitch told the man to say a prayer for the person receiving the magazine as he deposited it into the mailbox. Very sound advice, I thought.

We are called to promote the Church’s teachings with love, charity, and humility. Considering the way this girl handled the situation, I can see how some people outside the Church misunderstand our beliefs and come to the conclusion that we’re out of touch with reality. We have a long way to go in converting the culture to a non-contraceptive one, but how much progress can we make if we shun people by blatantly making them feel inferior to us? Your question of “strong morals or elitism” was well worded as I do sometimes get the impression that those who follow Church teachings devoutly (esp. regarding contraception) have an elitist attitude. This arrogance that “I am morally righteous and you’re not” is just as sinful as those who use contraception while knowing the Church’s stand against it.
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Great post!! 👍
 
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JeffAustralia:
We had an incident in our town recently. 16yr old Catholic girl working at supermarket (which sells condoms off the shelf, as is the normal these days) refuses to sell condoms to a customer, and tells her to take her shopping trolley to another checkout. Embarrasses the life out of the customer, and this all leads to a media circus and letters to the editor which make Catholics and our Church look foolish. Many seem to disagree with me, but I see morality as a personal thing and not to be forced on others. I’m sure the customer didn’t gain anything spiritually from the experience, and is probably even more determined not to become Catholic. Opinions?
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Opinion: For a 16 year old, she demonstrates more moral courage and fortitude than most adult Catholics and many clergy that I know and have encountered. Regarding her tactfulness, for a 16 year old, she definitley sounds age-appropriate.

Botomline: As far as giving witness to the gospel, I would much prefer this diamond in the rough than a church full of polished agates.
 
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VonMrs:
But Paul was speaking to BELIEVERS, people who had chosen to follow Christ. Where do we draw the line in what we force on other non-believers? Not going to mass is a sin. Should we go around berating non-Catholics for not attending mass on Ash Wednesday? God gave us free will. Who are we to manipulate the actions of others?
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I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but our inability to stand up for what is right is a product of secular manipulation in which we are taught that everyone’s opinion is valid simply because it is an opinion and it would be intolerant to do otherwise.

It is startling how many Catholics find this secular manipulation to be consistent with free speech but when a Catholic tries to fight *against *this manipulation, they’re bashed for “manipulation” and being “intolerant.” This is how the world wins.

Furthermore, where on earth was there manipulation? Did the girl forbid the man from every buying condoms? Did she say to the man that he was going to hell for buying condoms? Where was this man’s free will denied? Where was this man manipulated? All the girl did was say that *she *could not process the transaction in good faith. Another cashier could have handled it for him.

It is absolutely appalling how much we sacrifice Truth to comfort our own fears about how we look in front of other people. If my daughter went to stick a fork in an outlet, I would sure as heck tell her not to and prevent her from doing it. Is this an attack on her free will? Is this “manipulation?”

Or do you believe that sin really isn’t that bad and that no harm is done when a person committs a sin?
Here is what I see that this girls honorable options were, given her moral qualms about the purchase:
  1. Not take a job at the supermarket.
  2. Excuse herself during the sale and ask someone else to ring up the purchase.
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Isn’t that what she did? She referred him to another cashier, did she not?
She had no right to humiliate the customer.
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How was he humiliated? Furthermore, what child is not humiliated when he receives detention from a teacher for doing something wrong? Following your logic, we really ought not to punish children in fear of hurting their feelings…God forbid. You must find it hard to call Isaiah a legitimate prophet and voice of God when all he does is criticize sinners.

Last time I checked, our salvation was dependent upon sin not our “feelings.”
 
VonMrs,
Welcome to the fold! Re-reading my post, I sounded a bit terse–sorry. :o Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt in your very charitable response.
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VonMrs:
I still think she should have handled the situation in a more respectful manner. I am not saying that she should have sold the condoms. I am saying that she could have gracefully excused herself from the situation without causing embarrasment to the customer. To clarify on your “fourth of all” question… It would have been less of a spectacle if she would have simply said, “Excuse me for one moment”, and then quietly went to get another cashier. Instead, it sounds like she basically said to the customer, “get out of my lane with your condoms”. (I’m not sure how it actually played out, but this is my impression.) The condoms were a problem for her, not for the customer. She should have found a way to deal with it without humiliating the customer. Perhaps she should have addressed the issue ahead of time with management to work out an appropriate way of dealing with such situations. Or, perhaps, she shouldn’t have taken the job!
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Ahhh… yes, I can see the difference now. Your solution is something I will keep in mind… you never know when you’re going to come directly across a difficult situation like this.
 
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setter:
Opinion: For a 16 year old, she demonstrates more moral courage and fortitude than most adult Catholics and many clergy that I know and have encountered. Regarding her tactfulness, for a 16 year old, she definitley sounds age-appropriate.

Botomline: As far as giving witness to the gospel, I would much prefer this diamond in the rough than a church full of polished agates.
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EXCELLENT post!!!

Fortitude is a concept lost in the “age of aquarious” and died in the 60s. When feelings trump virtue, we have fallen far from the ideals of Christ.
 
BTW – Is anyone else having to do a second take on which numerical mike post that you are reading on this same thread? 😃
 
Been reading this, and I still don’t understand how religion is an issue. If I made hamburgers, and I refused to make a hamburger for a particular customer, I’d be fired. It’s the same thing. She doesn’t work for a Christian store. If they carry it, she is obliged to sell it to the customer.
 
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Liberalsaved:
Been reading this, and I still don’t understand how religion is an issue. If I made hamburgers, and I refused to make a hamburger for a particular customer, I’d be fired. It’s the same thing. She doesn’t work for a Christian store. If they carry it, she is obliged to sell it to the customer.
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Because there is a difference of moral responsibility between a Catholic dispensing hamburgers and condoms.
 
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setter:
Because there is a difference of moral responsibility between a Catholic dispensing hamburgers and condoms.
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Then she should find a job at another store. She’s not being made to work at that one and as long as she makes the choice to work there, she has no right to deny a customer a sale.

Despite the cries that our little piece of American society is beset upon, there is no end to the Christian places that she could work. Bookstores, grocery stores, restaurants, tons of them run by and in some cases even catering to Christians and Catholics. If she works at a secular store she is expected to sell the things the customers want to the customers who want them, as long as it is legal and carried by the store. That’s the only issue.
 
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Liberalsaved:
Been reading this, and I still don’t understand how religion is an issue. If I made hamburgers, and I refused to make a hamburger for a particular customer, I’d be fired. It’s the same thing. She doesn’t work for a Christian store. If they carry it, she is obliged to sell it to the customer.
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Who says it’s not a christian store? We don’t know this. If it is a self-proclaimed christian store, does that change your opinion?
Bet they sell alcohol and cigerettes too, which is illegal in most states for minors under 18. Should minors be selling items it is illegal for them to buy?
Let’s say she was working in a resturant that kept condoms in a vending machine in bathrooms. (It’s way more common than you think.) The employees have to restock and clean the restrooms each day. This girl says that for religious conviction reasons, she will clean the bathrooms, but she will not restock the condom machine. Should she be fired? I don’t think so.
I don’t see this cashier as any different of a situation.
**Personally, I agree that she problaby shouldn’t work there. **
Personally, I think alcohol, cigarettes, sex items such as condoms, and adult materials such as playboys should be sold through a seperate line by an adult in any store that carries those items. Many stores do this anyhow because it cuts theft (which is always high on those items) to keep them behind an adult manned counter requiring the custmer to ask for the items and pay at that time.
jmho.
 
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Liberalsaved:
Been reading this, and I still don’t understand how religion is an issue. If I made hamburgers, and I refused to make a hamburger for a particular customer, I’d be fired. It’s the same thing. She doesn’t work for a Christian store. If they carry it, she is obliged to sell it to the customer.
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You nailed it!
 
Rob’s Wife said:
[Personally, I think alcohol, cigarettes, sex items such as condoms, and adult materials such as playboys should be sold through a seperate line by an adult in any store that carries those items. Many stores do this anyhow because it cuts theft (which is always high on those items) to keep them behind an adult manned counter requiring the custmer to ask for the items and pay at that time.[/color]
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jmho.
I have no problem with this suggestion. This is a sound idea.
 
I can’t navigate that maze of colors for what to quote, so I’ll say, if it were a Catholic store then it wouldn’t be an issue, well, because they wouldn’t be selling them. But yes, it wouldn’t bother me then.
 
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